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prisonchaplain

Casinos Essential Churches Not So Much

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Washington State is practicing a special kind of special. Casinos are opening up, but churches are pretty much Phase 4. We're non-essential, and I hate to be cynical, but casino-attenders tend to vote one way, whereas the faithful predominantly vote a different way. When this is over we would do well to remember who showed themselves to be our friends and who relegated us to the fringes from beginning to end. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/some-tribal-casinos-reopen-amid-coronavirus-pandemic-despite-washington-states-stay-home-order/

Yes, I know … the open casinos are on Native American lands, not subject to state control. Still, it grates. Also, under state wisdom (data driven, according to the experts and all that) car washes and landscapers are essential, not churches. It's our understanding (at my church) that we won't see a return to "new normal" until nearly July. And, we'll obey. But again, I won't forget.

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Guest MormonGator
27 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I hate to be cynical, but casino-attenders tend to vote one way, whereas the faithful predominantly vote a different way.

Just because someone goes to a casino doesn't make them a democrat/liberal. It's fairly complicated. 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2011/nov/18/john-stemberger/largest-numbers-gamblers-come-poor/

https://whyy.org/articles/when-it-comes-to-gambling-politicial-parties-find-common-ground/

And for the record, I find gambling repulsive and don't do it. I've gone to casinos to dine with friends though. 

Edited by MormonGator

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27 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Just because someone goes to a casino doesn't make them a democrat/liberal. It's fairly complicated. 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2011/nov/18/john-stemberger/largest-numbers-gamblers-come-poor/

https://whyy.org/articles/when-it-comes-to-gambling-politicial-parties-find-common-ground/

And for the record, I find gambling repulsive and don't do it. I've gone to casinos to dine with friends though. 

On fact checkers, who checks them? Granted, Politifact gets ranked among the better of them, but more than a few conservatives believe them to be left-biased.

On the stereotype about casino-goers, I'd argue the question of who supports legalized gambling, online gambling, a particular casino etc., is a different question from who typically patronizes them. Religious devotion is a strong predicter of political affiliation, and the more conservative religions tend to discourage gambling. So...it seems a fair stereotype for me to suggest that a casino patron is more likely to be Democrat.

Of course, the real bottom line is that one party seems to be very quick to shut-down and regulate religious activity, while the other seems more likely to mention religious liberty, the First Amendment, and to recommend great caution when local governments use "emergency powers" to regulate them. Was I the only one deeply offended by some states instructing religious institutions not sing or offer communion? I get that they might believe there were health concerns, but the cavalier prohibition makes me wonder if they even spoke to religious leaders before given their alleged expert, data-driven pronouncements.

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Guest MormonGator
2 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

On the stereotype about casino-goers, I'd argue the question of who supports legalized gambling, online gambling, a particular casino etc., is a different question from who typically patronizes them. Religious devotion is a strong predicter of political affiliation, and the more conservative religions tend to discourage gambling. So...it seems a fair stereotype for me to suggest that a casino patron is more likely to be Democrat.

 

That might have been true in 1990. But today, you just can't make that generalization. Now, more and more republicans support legalized gambling. It's hardly a partisan thing.

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Guest MormonGator
12 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

On fact checkers, who checks them? Granted, Politifact gets ranked among the better of them, but more than a few conservatives believe them to be left-biased.

 

And hopefully, more than a few liberals believe them to be right-biased. 

Sadly, and like I mentioned several times, we only believe the news/fact-checkers that tell us things we already agree with. Tragic. 

Edited by MormonGator

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16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

And hopefully, more than a few liberals believe them to be right-biased. 

Sadly, and like I mentioned several times, we only believe the news/fact-checkers that tell us things we already agree with. Tragic. 

One site I frequent is realclearpolitics. It tends to give commentary from all sides, and also rates fact checkers. The ranked Snopes the best and Politifact #4. RCP seems to conclude that they are mostly good at what they do, but yes, can also let some bias in. This is important because now sites like Facebook are using fact checkers to censor what gets read on their site. For more see: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/07/18/snopes_and_editorializing_fact_checks_137551.html

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Guest MormonGator
4 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

One site I frequent is realclearpolitics. It tends to give commentary from all sides, and also rates fact checkers. The ranked Snopes the best and Politifact #4. RCP seems to conclude that they are mostly good at what they do, but yes, can also let some bias in. This is important because now sites like Facebook are using fact checkers to censor what gets read on their site. For more see: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/07/18/snopes_and_editorializing_fact_checks_137551.html

We agree totally that churches should absolutely be open.  

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25 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

That might have been true in 1990. But today, you just can't make that generalization. Now, more and more republicans support legalized gambling. It's hardly a partisan thing.


Again, I was speaking of casino patrons, not political supporters. I suspect some Republicans consider gambling taxes to be revenue collected from the foolish. Still, you are not totally wrong. This article suggests that overall casino patrons are more standard than we suspect: https://brandongaille.com/19-astounding-casino-demographics/  Still, the one fact he lists that reinforces my stereotype is that gambling patrons of all demographics think less about what God thinks of them than non-patrons.

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I absolutely agree that Casinos are NOT essential businesses in anyway, shape, or form that I am aware of.  Church's ARE a known high value vector for virus transmissions (along with schools and military barracks) which means I also question those who are opening them right up immediately if they wish to contain the virus, but letting casino's open and not Church's seem madness.

It seems that from those that I know that go to the Casinos that it attracts an older audience, while it is a younger group of people that attend the tables (Waiters, dealers, staff, etc).  This does not seem exactly to fit the liberal demographic.  I think they feel that they should have the freedom to spend the money as they want, even if it is basically throwing it away.  I understand the thrill of chance in a game (My family is big on board games, and I prefer ones which have cards and dice far more than those that require none of those and is all up to player knowledge generally speaking).  That does not mean I would go gambling.  The thrill may seem fun, but the vice also appears to be a real thing to me, and playing with real money and risks seems as attractive to me as playing Russian roulette (which, admittedly, some people also probably do).

I do not see that the Casino's should open before Churches.  I don't know how big an infection vector they are, but they would seem to be plausibly a massive vector.  We had a conference in Las Vegas once many years ago (actually, more like over a decade or two ago).  At the conference (obviously not church, it was for my occupation) some of the people I was with wanted to go to dinner.  They took me to a casino (I did not gamble, but I saw the inside of it...actually, just going to the Las Vegas Airport you'll see slot machines all over that place) because the restaurant was all you could eat for dirt cheap (Which it was, not sure if those still exist in Las Vegas today) with Lobster and steak along with other entrees you could get.

The Casino itself was smoky and seemed to have many with alcoholic drinks in hand.  I'm not sure the price of a meal was worth going through the environment.  Looking back on it, it seems like it would promote more of an anti-social distancing in order to participate in some of the games than to help curb an epidemic, and the behaviors promoted would also seem to inherently help the spread of any viruses in the air (sharing of dice, slot machine handles, sides of card and roulette tables...etc).

It would appear to me to be harder to keep the spread of a virus like the Corona virus in the Casino in comparison to a church (where you put everyone at opposite ends of the pew or other things).  Still, I can see both being restricted from opening at this time if one wishes to restrict the spread of the virus currently.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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I suspect and hope that when this is all over a lot of energy and discussion will go into determining what emergency powers governments (federal, state and local) actually have. Where is the line at which government can say, "This is a public health emergency and we are suspending liberty for public safety?" What are the legal rights of governments to declare essential vs. non-essential--especially when they say that churches are the latter? Can governments, during such emergencies, phase in openings by telling churches they can meet, but not share communion, they may hear teachings, but not sing? Can state and local governments declare McDonald's essential, but not the gun shop--especially when such only happens in blue states?

Most involved in this pandemic came at it with sincere hearts and minds. Some meshed public safety with political revenge. Some went full-on political for the first hour of the first day. In our guts we know that governments can do much of this in an emergency. Yet, this all went down without much discussion. Our leaders simply assumed near totalitarian powers. Once this passes, I'm not sure we will want this to happen again without some discussion of who gets to assume what powers.

Edited by prisonchaplain

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Hi prisonchaplain, We've spoken before but I cannot recall my old username. You once referred me to Peter.

I get where you're coming from, but dislike the use of the casinos as an example. Went through all of the trouble of creating a new account before noticing that you did point out the state has no jurisdiction over the casinos. Figured I might as well post anyway.  😊

Quote

 

Inslee acknowledges tribes’ authority to do as they wish on their lands, but he would prefer people resist going out just yet, said his spokesman, Mike Faulk.

“He has said all along people should stay home,” Faulk wrote in an email to The Seattle Times. “but he also does not have jurisdiction over sovereign tribes and wants to be respectful of those relationships. But yes, the governor would rather people not be going to venues such as casinos right now.”

 

I am especially dismayed by the folks that were socially isolating inside of their cars at a drive-in service. There was no legitimate reason for them to be targeted. And, yes, our family will remember too. We used to vote for the person we thought best suited for the job, regardless of party. What a painful lesson to learn.

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