NY Issues Tax Bill to Samaritan's Purse

[prisonchaplain]

If you "work" for 14 days or more in NY you are subject to state income tax. NY's governor says that given the state's dire economic situation it cannot give an exemption to Samaritan's Purse (which ran a no-charge over-flow hospital, at the invitation of Mt. Sinai Hospital). Yes, SP saved lives. Yes, they were selfless. Yes they treated all-comers, without religious distinction. However, SP holds to traditional biblical views on gay marriage, so NYC Council Speaker ordered them out, and just as they shut down, they get the tax bill. Like I said in the other string, I will not forget who is doing this to us.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/samaritans-purse-gets-tax-bill-after-discharging-last-patient-at-nyc-field-hospital.html

for those who prefer a secular source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickgleason/2020/05/08/andrew-cuomo-confirms-new-york-will-tax-out-of-state-volunteer-health-workers-congress-can-stop-this/#48cbf6185f12

Edited May 10, 2020 by prisonchaplain

[JohnsonJones]

2 things in this life are certain...Death and Taxes.

Actually, I can see the Governor's point.  Did they make money while there?  If so, pay taxes.

ON THE OTHERHAND...let's say they didn't earn any money...hard to squeeze juice out of a dry lemon.

(To clarify, IDEALLY, those in it for charity would EARN no money and truly did it for charity.  The Lord [or so I imagine] did not charge to heal the sick, the cure the lame, or the purify us from sin.  He charges no money for his grace and atonement.  True charity would charge no money, or at least, make NO money. 

Nevertheless, pay to Caesar what is Caesars, and what is the Lord to the Lord.

If we take of Caesar's coin, than if he demands we part with his coin, we do as Caesar demands. 

On the otherhand, as all is the Lord's, in the end, we give to the Lord as the Lord demands, and even Caesar will ultimately bow the knee).

Edited May 10, 2020 by JohnsonJones

[prisonchaplain]

@JohnsonJones, in this case the Governor's point is that the Senate Republicans need to bail NY out of its financial crisis. Since they will not, he has no choice but to tax healthcare workers who traveled to NY to help with the crisis. Yes, most were paid, either by the charities they came with, or by the healthcare agencies they worked for. Scripture tells us a worker is worth his/her wages. None of that detracts from the reality that most left the comfort of their homes and their much safer states, because NY needed the help. The governor actually begged for out-of-state healthcare workers to come to the state. He promised they would be taken care of. THEN, to send them packing with a tax bill? This might be legal, but it is outrageous. He is hoping to shame the senate GOP, but will instead bring shame on himself. I doubt any will have sympathy for him and blame the senate. Further, the next time NY calls for help, who's going to answer, given Cuomo's "No good deed goes unpunished" approach.

Here's the governor pleading with out of state workers to come help (March 30): https://www.cbsnews.com/news/andrew-cuomo-coronavirus-new-york-health-care-workers-covid-19/

Edited May 11, 2020 by prisonchaplain
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[mirkwood]

I remember years ago when Rush Limbaugh left New York and moved his business to Florida.  He talked on air about New York's efforts to continue to tax him even after he was gone.

[Just_A_Guy]

Samaratin’s Purse has been treated shabbily by NY authorities in many, many ways.  But frankly, I’ve known since I was eighteen that if you worked and drew a paycheck in a state other than your home state, you were liable to be taxed in the state you worked in for your earnings in that state.  How can a global nonprofit run by full-time, experienced experts, not understand this?

Complaining about having to pay state income tax on salaries earned in that state, isn’t a good look for SP.

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Samaratin’s Purse has been treated shabbily by NY authorities in many, many ways.  But frankly, I’ve known since I was eighteen that if you worked and drew a paycheck in a state other than your home state, you were liable to be taxed in the state you worked in for your earnings in that state.  How can a global nonprofit run by full-time, experienced experts, not understand this?

Complaining about having to pay state income tax on salaries earned in that state, isn’t a good look for SP.

Maybe. But Cuomo's unabashed hypocrisy in characterizing not paying state income tax as a "subsidy" after he himself pled for help is what gets under people's skin. Well, that along with SP being ridden out of town on a rail after their usefulness had been exhausted.

COVID-19 has not been a real threat, societally. It's the 98-pound weakling of pandemics. But worse will come. And when it does, New York will be left to suffer and die, because it will have wasted all its goodwill capital in fiascos like badmouthing SP because their stance on homosexuality is not sufficiently "progressive". When that day comes, then for the sake of my own soul I hope I don't take any (or at least much) satisfaction in seeing the city of New York get exactly what's coming to it.

[Still_Small_Voice]

1 hour ago, mirkwood said:

I remember years ago when Rush Limbaugh left New York and moved his business to Florida.  He talked on air about New York's efforts to continue to tax him even after he was gone.

New York has already proven in the past they will take anything they want from their citizens if the State authorities deem it necessary.  It was necessary for them in their minds to put harsh restrictions and bans on New York citizen's right to keep and bear privately owned firearms.  The lack of respect for private property of citizens continues in New York State and will continue as they keep re-electing these people. 

I am glad I do not live in that State anymore.

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Complaining about having to pay state income tax on salaries earned in that state, isn’t a good look for SP.

I agree with every detail you offered, but 100% disagree with the conclusion. Yes, NY has the legal right to tax those who work within its borders. Yes, large organizations should know this. Yes, as believers, we should render unto Caesar what is Caesars. BUT, I do not believe the governor's threat is normal. Many organizations respond to natural disasters. The Church does. Convoy of Hope, Samaritan's Purse, even secular groups like the Red Cross. Never have I heard of a hard-hit location, when the disaster passes, saying to the volunteers: Thanks for coming, here's your tax bill!

This is a punk move. The governor is using the best Americans as pawns, hoping to shame the GOP senate into giving his state money. Frankly, I am so upset I would urge my senators to vote no, just to show NY we won't reward such outrageous tactics. Sadly, my state's senators are probably cheering the governor on.

[Just_A_Guy]

4 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I agree with every detail you offered, but 100% disagree with the conclusion. Yes, NY has the legal right to tax those who work within its borders. Yes, large organizations should know this. Yes, as believers, we should render unto Caesar what is Caesars. BUT, I do not believe the governor's threat is normal. Many organizations respond to natural disasters. The Church does. Convoy of Hope, Samaritan's Purse, even secular groups like the Red Cross. Never have I heard of a hard-hit location, when the disaster passes, saying to the volunteers: Thanks for coming, here's your tax bill!

This is a punk move. The governor is using the best Americans as pawns, hoping to shame the GOP senate into giving his state money. Frankly, I am so upset I would urge my senators to vote no, just to show NY we won't reward such outrageous tactics. Sadly, my state's senators are probably cheering the governor on.

I can’t speak to all these other charities, except for the LDS Church.  LDS “helping hands” workers aren’t getting paid in the states in which they serve, and LDS humanitarian service workers are primarily  self-supporting “service missionaries”; so there’s nothing to tax.

I suppose the Red Cross or Convoy of Hope may be paying their workers and keeping them on-site for weeks or months at a time—I don’t know—but if they do, I’ve never heard of them getting or requesting a state or federal income tax exemption for the organization’s service.  Is there precedent for this sort of thing?

[prisonchaplain]

According to this article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickgleason/2020/05/08/andrew-cuomo-confirms-new-york-will-tax-out-of-state-volunteer-health-workers-congress-can-stop-this/#774365215f12  Samaritan's Purse was shocked that they would be taxed. Further, the governor can certainly wave the tax. He indicates he will if the feds cough up more money. There is legislation pending, recommended by Forbes, to prevent this kind of thing from repeating. So, again, yes what Cuomo's doing is legal. It's not normal, it's the ultimate in ungratefulness, and even some Democrats in DC seem ready to correct this punk move.  

 

[Vort]

17 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

So, again, yes what Cuomo's doing is legal. It's not normal, it's the ultimate in ungratefulness, and even some Democrats in DC seem ready to correct this punk move.

I'm not so sure it's abnormal, or even "the ultimate in ungratefulness" (though it's certainly ungracious). What bothers me is the blatant bad treatment of people who came to serve New Yorkers, coupled with Cuomo's hypocritical and self-serving pandering and calling a no-taxed status a "subsidy", as if NY was somehow helping out this nonprofit or its employees by being magnanimous enough to give them work. And if Cuomo slithers out of this one with some fake apology and is not otherwise held accountable for this, then frankly New York deserves him as their governor. I speak as one who has Jay Inslee for a governor, so I know more or less whereof I speak.

[Traveler]

The other day, I heard a Democrat on the news say that New York's response to COVID 19 was the best possible.  I wished I could have asked that person if they could name any place in the world that had a worse response.

But there is something else going on.  A lot of individuals have discovered that because of COVID-19 that many companies have learned that their workers can work remotely from home.  The problem is - when someone is working from home in one state for a company in another state - which state should get the income tax?

In all my travels I have never paid an income tax anywhere other than where I have my residence.  I have been places several years and flying home on weekends.  I have never liked New York City - even to visit but their draconian tax system is leaving me with more excuse than ever.

That they would tax voluntary workers that put themselves at risk is definitely draconian but perhaps I should say typical of Democratic party policy.  But then it is getting harder for blue states to finance their dreams.

 

The Traveler

 

 

[prisonchaplain]

One factor we may be missing, due to the original topic being Samaritan's Purse, is that the governor's threat to tax out-of-state health workers is not limited to the charity. ALL who came to the state, at Gov. Cuomo's pleading, will be subject--if they earned money, even from non-NY entities, while working in NY.

[Carborendum]

6 hours ago, mirkwood said:

I remember years ago when Rush Limbaugh left New York and moved his business to Florida.  He talked on air about New York's efforts to continue to tax him even after he was gone.

Glenn Beck moved to Texas for the same reason.

Hannity has been threatening to do the same for a few years now.

Elon Musk is now saying he'll probably move the entire company out of California to a more business friendly state like Texas.  (And I never thought of Musk as a free market guy).

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

One factor we may be missing, due to the original topic being Samaritan's Purse, is that the governor's threat to tax out-of-state health workers is not limited to the charity. ALL who came to the state, at Gov. Cuomo's pleading, will be subject--if they earned money, even from non-NY entities, while working in NY.

Not necessarily this specific COVID situation, but other states have done this as well.  In fact, it happens normally.  I'm not sure why SP was surprised unless they thought they were

1. Going to get some sort of religious exemption, in which case they probably should prove that they were official ministers of the church or some such...

OR...

2. They made no money and are still going to be taxed on zero dollars...in which case they may want to start fishing for gold? (Edit: Actually, in this instance, if they were complete volunteers and made no money, I would say a lawsuit could be in the future of this, especially if they are trying to charge for income tax and no income was had.  Even worse, if SP lost money and the taxes are for institutions of tax rather than mere income tax (things like healthcare, business, employment, etc...type taxes) causing a net loss to them because they came and helped...I could see this creating a court case to work through the system if they wished to pursue it along those lines.

I'm not sure why SP thought they would be exempt from the rules that other were already playing by.  For outstanding situations though (see example #2) I can see problems arising of which the correct course if they get charged on these taxes could possibly be a lawsuit (that probably would work it's way through the NY system).  That is if they even decide to pursue that course of action.  They could just simply agree to the taxes and pay them.

Second Edit: Figured what was here added nothing else to the conversation, so deleted it.

Edited May 11, 2020 by JohnsonJones

[prisonchaplain]

I am willing to learn. If there are examples in which non-profits that enter a state/locality to render pro-longed disaster relief see their employees levied with local/state taxes I want to see. It strikes me as bizarre that recipients of charity would attempt to penalize relief workers.

Edited May 11, 2020 by prisonchaplain

[Vort]

40 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

It strikes me as bizarre that recipients of charity would attempt to penalize relief workers.

Welcome to Leftism. I've seen such entitlement even around Seattle, which is traditionally pretty friendly despite the political extremism.

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Not necessarily this specific COVID situation, but other states have done this as well.  In fact, it happens normally.  I'm not sure why SP was surprised ...

This is our sticking point. I do not believe it happens normally. Further, I'm not sure this has ever been done before. It's ugly and foolish. Who begs people to help them, then charges them for the privilege? I do not agree with the tactics the PJ Media commentator suggests here, but I understanding the sentiment:

I’m not a health care worker and didn’t set foot in New York to volunteer. But if I had, and then returned home to another state only to have Cuomo say he’s going to tax my income, I’d give him a blunt answer:

Come and take it.

Edited May 12, 2020 by prisonchaplain

[prisonchaplain]

20 minutes ago, Vort said:

Welcome to Leftism. I've seen such entitlement even around Seattle, which is traditionally pretty friendly despite the political extremism.

I used to think Seattlites went to NYC when they wanted to learn what radical right-wing extremism was (relatively speaking). That must have been back in the day, because the big apple has apparently caught up. 'Red' delicious indeed.

Edited May 12, 2020 by prisonchaplain

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Not necessarily this specific COVID situation, but other states have done this as well.  In fact, it happens normally.  I'm not sure why SP was surprised unless they thought they were

1. Going to get some sort of religious exemption, in which case they probably should prove that they were official ministers of the church or some such...

OR...

2. They made no money and are still going to be taxed on zero dollars...in which case they may want to start fishing for gold? (Edit: Actually, in this instance, if they were complete volunteers and made no money, I would say a lawsuit could be in the future of this, especially if they are trying to charge for income tax and no income was had.  Even worse, if SP lost money and the taxes are for institutions of tax rather than mere income tax (things like healthcare, business, employment, etc...type taxes) causing a net loss to them because they came and helped...I could see this creating a court case to work through the system if they wished to pursue it along those lines.

I'm not sure why SP thought they would be exempt from the rules that other were already playing by.  For outstanding situations though (see example #2) I can see problems arising of which the correct course if they get charged on these taxes could possibly be a lawsuit (that probably would work it's way through the NY system).  That is if they even decide to pursue that course of action.  They could just simply agree to the taxes and pay them.

Second Edit: Figured what was here added nothing else to the conversation, so deleted it.

I do not know and perhaps @prisonchaplaincan enlighten us better but perhaps those working were not being paid wages but were given something to cover their expenses while offering their services as charity.  If their pay being taxed was reimbursement for incurred expenses - then without a doubt - in my mind - the actions of New York were unbelievably draconian.   If they were being paid - then they were not really providing charity - not any more than anyone else working and being paid for their work in connection to COVID-19.

 

The Traveler

[JohnsonJones]

9 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

This is our sticking point. I do not believe it happens normally. Further, I'm not sure this has ever been done before. It's ugly and foolish. Who begs people to help them, then charges them for the privilege? I do not agree with the tactics the PJ Media commentator suggests here, but I understanding the sentiment:

I’m not a health care worker and didn’t set foot in New York to volunteer. But if I had, and then returned home to another state only to have Cuomo say he’s going to tax my income, I’d give him a blunt answer:

Come and take it.

It's happened to me.  It's happened to others.  It depends on the state laws and such.  This is why it's a good thing to look at what they can do legally when you go other places. 

New York has had this rule for a while and it's been applied to others.  It's not actually unusual AND it actually happens normally.  New York is actually more lenient than some states which have it so if you work 8 hours (or a day's work) you owe that state income tax if that work was done in that state.  New York actually has a threshold unlike other states, some which say that any work you do in the state is taxable.

States which tax non-residents on the first day of being there, I think are...

Montana
Colorado
Nebraska
Kansas
Minnesota
Iowa
Missouri
Arkansas
Louisiana
Mississippi
Alabama
Illinois
Indiana
Ohio
Kentucky
Michigan
Pennsylvania
North Carolina
Vermont
Massachusetts
Connecticut
 

New York's income tax laws on non-residents are actually more lax than the above states.  It has a threshold that needs to be met before non-residents are taxed.  The same idea applies to Utah (which also has a threshold, I believe it is different and perhaps more lax than New York in some ways), as well as various other states.  A majority of states have laws which allow non-residents of the states to be taxed.  Some states have agreements with others or at times with certain groups (truckers can have this as troublesome in some areas I believe).

Washington State does not have this type of tax on income, and so it may seem unusual to individuals from there, but these laws are not all that unusual to run across.

[Carborendum]

@prisonchaplain

There is a much easier way to avoid the taxes than all this hullabaloo (see, I'm officially an old man).

If the "volunteers" (note the quotes) would sign a form stating that they were volunteers (i.e. not asking for payment) then there would be nothing to tax. 

Then the company agrees to "per deim" roughly equal to their pay, less FICA, 10% income tax, and any other govt requirements.  They can also get additional reimbursements for "company related expenses" (actual expenses) that can be above and beyond per deim.

This would basically thumb their nose at NY by making the state go through a whole lot of work to get nothing.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Carborendum

[prisonchaplain]

9 hours ago, Traveler said:

If they were being paid - then they were not really providing charity - not any more than anyone else working and being paid for their work in connection to COVID-19.

A few are making this distinction. First, in the eyes of God, sure--those who respond to missionary and service work deserve special credit. He will reward. However, in terms of what the New York state government is doing, the distinction is meaningless, imho. In my area public schools earn well-deserved professional wages (Seattle starts at $60K). Religious school teachers are generally 2/3rds of that. So, do we say they are paid and deserve no extra honor for choosing a much lower paying institution because they believe in Christian education? Likewise, I suspect that those healthcare workers who are employed by Samaritan's Purse, as well as those who took leave, or accepted other considerations from their home-state employers, still made some tremendous family and financial sacrifices to answer the call for help--again a call issued by this same governor.

I must admit that I am surprised at the somewhat tepid response to this. To my mind the governor is holding the most noble among us hostage, in order to gain additional funding from DC. After begging healthcare workers to come, he says with a straight face that not charging them NY State income tax would amount to a subsidy--as if he was doing them all a favor to allow them to come to NY and work.

[prisonchaplain]

5 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

It's happened to me.  It's happened to others.  It depends on the state laws and such.  This is why it's a good thing to look at what they can do legally when you go other places. 

New York has had this rule for a while and it's been applied to others.  It's not actually unusual AND it actually happens normally.  New York is actually more lenient than some states which have it so if you work 8 hours (or a day's work) you owe that state income tax if that work was done in that state.  New York actually has a threshold unlike other states, some which say that any work you do in the state is taxable.

I will concede ignorance on the general issue of non-resident state income tax. However, I am particular concerned with states that have natural disasters, issue calls for help, receive such help from 'Good Samaritans' and then tax them. That's a far cry from say me going to Oregon or Idaho to do some contract work. Here's Samaritan's Purse's take, as reported at CBN.com:

Earlier this week, the Rev. Franklin Graham, president of the nonprofit organization, told Faithwire, “They’re the ones who called us originally,” referring to officials with the Mount Sinai Health System in New York City. “We didn’t call them; they called us,” he continued. “And we agreed to go and we have not charged them one penny. All of our services have been paid by God’s people.”

Samaritan’s Purse workers were on the ground, setting up a 68-bed field hospital right after receiving the call, and now they’re being held financially liable for their goodwill because, according to Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D), he’s “not in a position to provide any subsidies right now.”

Is this not appalling? Am I really such an outlier?

Edited May 12, 2020 by prisonchaplain

[prisonchaplain]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

@prisonchaplain

There is a much easier way to avoid the taxes than all this hullabaloo (see, I'm officially an old man).

If the "volunteers" (note the quotes) would sign a form stating that they were volunteers (i.e. not asking for payment) then there would be nothing to tax. 

Then the company agrees to "per deim" roughly equal to their pay, less FICA, 10% income tax, and any other govt requirements.  They can also get additional reimbursements for "company related expenses" (actual expenses) that can be above and beyond per deim.

This would basically thumb their nose at NY by making the state go through a whole lot of work to get nothing.

Samaritan's Purse may have to do some legal maneuvering like this moving forward, but again, I doubt they anticipated that any state or local government would have the gall to charge them tax after receiving emergency disaster relief from them.