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Baptisms for the dead

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On 5/14/2020 at 11:05 PM, Colirio said:

Brigham Young - “Jesus was the first man that ever went to preach to the spirits in prison, holding the keys of the Gospel of salvation to them. Those keys were delivered to him in the day and hour that he went into the spirit world, and with them he opened the door of salvation to the spirits in prison.” (Journal of Discourses 4:285.) 

 

I wander what, and how much, significance we can attach to the word "man" in the above quote. 

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On 5/22/2020 at 1:25 PM, Allison said:

Are the faithful elders also under the same condition (bondage) as the dead to whom they are preaching to
(where their spirits are absent from their bodies) or are they resurrected personages or are they not in bondage
even though their spirits are absent from their bodies?

What an interesting question! How does it look to you when you read D&C 138, specifically looking for the term "bondage" and how it's used?

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2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

What an interesting question! How does it look to you when you read D&C 138, specifically looking for the term "bondage" and how it's used?

I see several mentions of bondage in that section.

"He sees Adam, Eve, and many of the holy prophets in the spirit world who considered
their spirit state before their resurrection as a bondage
(introduction notes)".

"For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies
as a bondag
e".

"I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal
life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and
redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who
are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of
the dead
".

One is a bondage of sin, the other is a bondage of a body being separated from its
spirit.

Therefore my question whether the elders of this dispensation (Joseph Smith, etc)
are in bondage too (body separated from spirit) or whether they are resurrected
beings preaching in the spirit world.

Allison

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5 hours ago, Allison said:

I see several mentions of bondage in that section.

"He sees Adam, Eve, and many of the holy prophets in the spirit world who considered
their spirit state before their resurrection as a bondage
(introduction notes)".

"For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies
as a bondag
e".

"I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal
life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and
redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who
are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of
the dead
".

One is a bondage of sin, the other is a bondage of a body being separated from its
spirit.

Therefore my question whether the elders of this dispensation (Joseph Smith, etc)
are in bondage too (body separated from spirit) or whether they are resurrected
beings preaching in the spirit world.

Allison

I think the general cultural expectation within the Church is that the vast majority of people who lived after Christ’s ministry, won’t be resurrected until right around the time of His second coming.  There are exceptions (Moroni, Peter, and James among them); but I think they are perceived as anomalies.

Joseph Smith’s remains were exhumed and photographed in 1928; so he certainly hadn’t been resurrected as of the time of D&C 138 (1918).

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11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think the general cultural expectation within the Church is that the vast majority of people who lived after Christ’s ministry, won’t be resurrected until right around the time of His second coming.  There are exceptions (Moroni, Peter, and James among them); but I think they are perceived as anomalies.

Joseph Smith’s remains were exhumed and photographed in 1928; so he certainly hadn’t been resurrected as of the time of D&C 138 (1918).

Saying that our interpretation of Resurrection is correct...of course.

(Well...some of us...in that it is the current body we have now that is raised up from whatever composted remains are left.  However, there could also be that if it has the same DNA and the same coherence that we have a resurrected body much in the same way that the atoms and cells of our body is the same body when we are 70s as what we had when we were 1....).

It may be that our understanding in incomplete and that Joseph or others have been resurrected, even if we can still find SOME of their earthly remains still on Earth.

Or it may be that they have yet to be resurrected, for as you say, we still have remains of Joseph (and Hyrum) today.  Then again, in theory, some would say we also have the remains of Joseph from Egypt (not that it is, just some groups CLAIM it is) and others from prior to the Lord's reign who we would have reason to expect have been resurrected...which can make one stroke their chin and ponder...

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I just got a special email from Church Headquarters because I'm the Ward Temple and Family History Leader.  The relevance to this thread is that it coupled missionary work and vicarious ordinance work in one category (Gathering of Israel).

It occurred to me that there wasn't any active proselyting (or at least it was extremely minimal) in Old Testament times.  And Jesus, Himself avoided those who were not of the House of Israel in his preaching and his blessings.  But AFTER the resurrection, he committed the Apostles and ALL Christians to go and "feed my sheep."  He specifically commissioned Paul to preach to the Gentiles.  But they were all to go forth two-by-two and perform missionary work.  Only after the Resurrection.

I believe this is another piece of the puzzle.  Why was no missionary work done on this side of the veil until AFTER the Resurrection?  Why was no missionary work done on the other side of the veil until after the resurrection?  I'm not sure I know the answer.  But it appears that the answers to both these questions have some additional qualities in common that we are not yer aware of -- or at least no one has brought them up.

EDIT: And why was Christ "sent only to the House of Israel" in his mortal ministry, but later opened the preaching of the gospel to the gentiles?  As far as I know, no revelation has been given on this point.  It seems we may never know.

Edited by Carborendum

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On 5/31/2020 at 2:55 PM, Carborendum said:

But they were all to go forth two-by-two and perform missionary work.  Only after the Resurrection.

Do you have a Book of Mormon reference for this?

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2 hours ago, romans8 said:

Do you have a Book of Mormon reference for this?

Carb is referring to missionary work amongst the gentiles in the Holy Land and beyond.  It would have been beyond the scope of the Book of Mormon to discuss this in any detail.  As it pertained to the Nephites, their prophets seemed perfectly happy to preach to anyone who was willing to hear them, at any time, regardless of ancestry or race.
 

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 7:30 AM, romans8 said:

Do you have a Book of Mormon reference for this?

I believe the reference is actually from the Bible, the New Testament. 

For example in Luke 10:1-9 it says

Quote

1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.

5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.

6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.

7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:

9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 

and Mark 6:7-10

Quote

7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:

9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.

10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.

 

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On 5/13/2020 at 1:40 PM, prisonchaplain said:

I believe that Old Testament baptisms--and even that of John the Baptist--were a means of believers repenting of sins, not as a rite of conversion. So, if there was any kind of proxy baptism, it would have had a different meaning. My understanding is that if a scribe were making a copy of a passage of scripture and made a mistake the page would be destroyed and he would have to undergo a type of baptism before returning to the scribe work.

didn't read through the whole thread so I apologizes if this was mentioned, but baptism has been uses as both remission of sins and a sign of entering Christ's church and not always together.

Before the church was established, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry baptized each other after receiving authority from John the Baptist.  They then baptized others.  After the church was established in 1830, everyone was rebaptized as a commitment to Christs newly formed church.  And new members were baptized as members and for the remission of sin.

And in the early days of the church, members would be rebaptized for the remission of sins.  Later Sacrament became the only outward symbol, which is frankly, a lot more convenient.  

But I suppose one could request being rebaptized.  And of course, those excommunicated are rebaptized when they return to the church. 

Edited by bytebear

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On 6/1/2020 at 4:55 AM, Carborendum said:

It occurred to me that there wasn't any active proselyting (or at least it was extremely minimal) in Old Testament times.  And Jesus, Himself avoided those who were not of the House of Israel in his preaching and his blessings.  But AFTER the resurrection, he committed the Apostles and ALL Christians to go and "feed my sheep."  He specifically commissioned Paul to preach to the Gentiles.  But they were all to go forth two-by-two and perform missionary work.  Only after the Resurrection.

I believe this is another piece of the puzzle.  Why was no missionary work done on this side of the veil until AFTER the Resurrection?  Why was no missionary work done on the other side of the veil until after the resurrection?  I'm not sure I know the answer.  But it appears that the answers to both these questions have some additional qualities in common that we are not yer aware of -- or at least no one has brought them up.

EDIT: And why was Christ "sent only to the House of Israel" in his mortal ministry, but later opened the preaching of the gospel to the gentiles?  As far as I know, no revelation has been given on this point.  It seems we may never know.

4  And now it came to pass that when the king had sent forth this proclamation, that Aaron and his brethren went forth from city to city, and from one house of worship to another, establishing churches, and consecrating priests and teachers throughout the land among the Lamanites, to preach and to teach the word of God among them; and thus they began to have great success.
5  And thousands were brought to the knowledge of the Lord, yea, thousands were brought to believe in the traditions of the Nephites; and they were taught the records and prophecies which were handed down even to the present time.
6  And as sure as the Lord liveth, so sure as many as believed, or as many as were brought to the knowledge of the truth, through the preaching of Ammon and his brethren, according to the spirit of revelation and of prophecy, and the power of God working miracles in them—yea, I say unto you, as the Lord liveth, as many of the Lamanites as believed in their preaching, and were converted unto the Lord, never did fall away.
7  For they became a righteous people; they did lay down the weapons of their rebellion, that they did not fight against God any more, neither against any of their brethren.
8  Now, these are they who were converted unto the Lord:
9  The people of the Lamanites who were in the land of Ishmael;
10  And also of the people of the Lamanites who were in the land of Middoni;
11  And also of the people of the Lamanites who were in the city of Nephi;
12  And also of the people of the Lamanites who were in the land of Shilom, and who were in the land of Shemlon, and in the city of Lemuel, and in the city of Shimnilom.
13  And these are the names of the cities of the Lamanites which were converted unto the Lord; and these are they that laid down the weapons of their rebellion, yea, all their weapons of war; and they were all Lamanites.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 23:4 - 13)

8 And thus the Gospel began to be preached, from the beginning, being declared by holy angels sent forth from the presence of God, and by his own voice, and by the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 5:58)

 

 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: Look; and I looked, and I beheld the land of Sharon, and the land of Enoch, and the land of Omner, and the land of Heni, and the land of Shem, and the land of Haner, and the land of Hanannihah, and all the inhabitants thereof;
10  And the Lord said unto me: Go to this people, and say unto them—Repent, lest I come out and smite them with a curse, and they die.
11  And he gave unto me a commandment that I should baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, which is full of grace and truth, and of the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and the Son.
12  And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 7:9 - 12)

 

Edited by askandanswer

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5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

4  And now it came to pass that when the king had sent forth this proclamation, that Aaron and his brethren went forth from city to city, and from one house of worship to another, establishing churches, and consecrating priests and teachers throughout the land among the Lamanites, to preach and to teach the word of God among them; and thus they began to have great success.
5  And thousands were brought to the knowledge of the Lord, yea, thousands were brought to believe in the traditions of the Nephites; and they were taught the records and prophecies which were handed down even to the present time.
6  And as sure as the Lord liveth, so sure as many as believed, or as many as were brought to the knowledge of the truth, through the preaching of Ammon and his brethren, according to the spirit of revelation and of prophecy, and the power of God working miracles in them—yea, I say unto you, as the Lord liveth, as many of the Lamanites as believed in their preaching, and were converted unto the Lord, never did fall away.
7  For they became a righteous people; they did lay down the weapons of their rebellion, that they did not fight against God any more, neither against any of their brethren.
8  Now, these are they who were converted unto the Lord:
9  The people of the Lamanites who were in the land of Ishmael;
10  And also of the people of the Lamanites who were in the land of Middoni;
11  And also of the people of the Lamanites who were in the city of Nephi;
12  And also of the people of the Lamanites who were in the land of Shilom, and who were in the land of Shemlon, and in the city of Lemuel, and in the city of Shimnilom.
13  And these are the names of the cities of the Lamanites which were converted unto the Lord; and these are they that laid down the weapons of their rebellion, yea, all their weapons of war; and they were all Lamanites.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 23:4 - 13)

Yes, to the House of Israel.  Nephites and Lamanites satisfy that criterion.

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

8 And thus the Gospel began to be preached, from the beginning, being declared by holy angels sent forth from the presence of God, and by his own voice, and by the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 5:58)

 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: Look; and I looked, and I beheld the land of Sharon, and the land of Enoch, and the land of Omner, and the land of Heni, and the land of Shem, and the land of Haner, and the land of Hanannihah, and all the inhabitants thereof;
10  And the Lord said unto me: Go to this people, and say unto them—Repent, lest I come out and smite them with a curse, and they die.
11  And he gave unto me a commandment that I should baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, which is full of grace and truth, and of the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and the Son.
12  And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 7:9 - 12)

I said "The House of Israel."

It would imply that I was talking about the time period when the House of Israel actually existed.  The period of time before that, there was no distinction.  So, it was obviously not an issue.

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The Lord never, or at most very rarely, speaks directly to the Gentiles. They are spiritually dead, cut off from him. Throughout the entirety of human history, God's direct dealings are with his covenant people, and pretty much only with them. The workings of the Spirit and the efforts of missionaries (full-time and otherwise) are the voice of God to the Gentiles. Since his sheep hear his voice, the sheep are eventually gathered into the fold, where they receive protection and where they learn the so-called mysteries of Godliness. But such mysteries have never been made openly available outside of God's kingdom. God never casts pearls before swine. This is true even within the kingdom of God, not just outside of it.

I enoyed a&a's post and found it valuable. If you read through his scriptural citations, I believe you will see the pattern I explained above. What we broadly call "missionary work" is God's voice to the peoples of the earth, an invitation to escape Babylon and come unto Christ. Further blessings (or condemnations!) come within the kingdom of God as the Lord's sheep continue their spiritual progress, or perhaps reveal themselves as wolves.

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17 minutes ago, Vort said:

The Lord never, or at most very rarely, speaks directly to the Gentiles. They are spiritually dead, cut off from him. Throughout the entirety of human history, God's direct dealings are with his covenant people, and pretty much only with them. The workings of the Spirit and the efforts of missionaries (full-time and otherwise) are the voice of God to the Gentiles. Since his sheep hear his voice, the sheep are eventually gathered into the fold, where they receive protection and where they learn the so-called mysteries of Godliness. But such mysteries have never been made openly available outside of God's kingdom. God never casts pearls before swine. This is true even within the kingdom of God, not just outside of it.

I enoyed a&a's post and found it valuable. If you read through his scriptural citations, I believe you will see the pattern I explained above. What we broadly call "missionary work" is God's voice to the peoples of the earth, an invitation to escape Babylon and come unto Christ. Further blessings (or condemnations!) come within the kingdom of God as the Lord's sheep continue their spiritual progress, or perhaps reveal themselves as wolves.

I did read them.  And what I understood was the expansion of the point I made.  But your post provided the proper term: Covenant People (not just the House of Israel).

"Missionary work" prior to Christ was only done to the covenant people.  I believe that prior to the flood, the covenant people included all of the human race except for the land of Canaan (which at the time were the people of Cain - IIRC).

After Christ, "missionary work" was primarily towards the unconverted Jew of the era (covenant people).  Even after Peter's "unclean" vision, the gentiles were not heavily proselyted until Paul's conversion.

And I believe that The Lord's response to Peter was telling:

Quote

What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

It appears that something happened that cause God to cleanse the gentiles.  I suspect it had to do with the scattering of Israel and the blood of Israel was infused into the entire population.  But there was still some "on switch" that was required even after all the conditions had been set.  That "on switch" was the resurrection.

Verse 18 was particularly telling:

Quote

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Did they not have the gift of repentance prior to that?

Edited by Carborendum

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I did read them.

My comment was general, not directed at you or any other individual.

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On 6/6/2020 at 12:26 PM, Carborendum said:

No, why?

I was wondering if you had a scriptural rationale for your statement "But they were all to go forth two-by-two and perform missionary work.  Only after the Resurrection"

The only two-by-two example that Jesus commissioned in the Bible that I find is for the
70 (72 in some translations) but this is before His resurrection. For singles,  I see Philip with the Ethiopian
eunuch and Paul on Mars Hill as some examples.   For more than 2, I see Acts 10:23-48  where Peter
and his companions travel to Caesarea and share the Good News of Jesus’s death and resurrection with
Cornelius’s group.  I read the chapters surrounding Christ's visit to the Nephites and there is no mention of
seventies or a two-by-two commission.

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12 hours ago, romans8 said:

I was wondering if you had a scriptural rationale for your statement "But they were all to go forth two-by-two and perform missionary work.  Only after the Resurrection"

The only two-by-two example that Jesus commissioned in the Bible that I find is for the
70 (72 in some translations) but this is before His resurrection. For singles,  I see Philip with the Ethiopian
eunuch and Paul on Mars Hill as some examples.   For more than 2, I see Acts 10:23-48  where Peter
and his companions travel to Caesarea and share the Good News of Jesus’s death and resurrection with
Cornelius’s group.  I read the chapters surrounding Christ's visit to the Nephites and there is no mention of
seventies or a two-by-two commission.

Yup.  Isn't that interesting?

Edited by Carborendum

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