.

[Plein Air]

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Edited August 2, 2020 by Plein Air

[Guest MormonGator]

20 minutes ago, Vort said:

Exactly. As if asking a woman to wear a hijab in public is some kind of horrible burden! Grow up, women! Cover those faces! This is not hard! Sheesh.

Brilliant point. After all wearing a hijab or not can transmit a deadly disease that can kill innocent people!  Exact same thing! Why oh why did I not think of that?

I bow to your staggeringly perfect comparison. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by MormonGator

[Fether]

Just got back from home depot I’m southern Utah. The place was pretty packed and only saw 5-6 face masks (except for the employees, they all wore masks).

as a side note, I know one of the 3 covid deaths, it was a 90+ year old lady with a bunch of other health issues. She most certainly did not die due to covid, yet was counted.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Fether

[Vort]

20 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Brilliant point. After all wearing a hijab or not can transmit a deadly disease that can kill innocent people!  Exact same thing! Why oh why did I not think of that?

I bow to your staggeringly perfect comparison. 

Someone who has had Covid-19 and is healed from it can neither contract nor transmit Covid-19. So how is requiring him to wear a mask in public any different?

[Vort]

@MormonGator, I'm still waiting for your explanation of how "flatten the curve" has reasonably been transformed into "let's do everything humanly possible to not allow anyone ever to get Covid-19." Immunologically speaking, how does this make any possible sense?

Enlighten me, MG. When exactly does the mask-wearing end? Other than "When our masters say it does", I mean.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Vort

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

Someone who has had Covid-19 and is healed from it can neither contract nor transmit Covid-19. So how is requiring him to wear a mask in public any different?

Just Googled it. 

[Guest MormonGator]

Why is wearing a mask such a burden to you? Do you honestly not care about vulnerable people? Will wearing a mask really cause you that much of a problem? I truly don’t understand it.  I truly don’t. 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Just Googled it. 

So, your claim is that "Maybe you can get it again! We just don't know!" is sufficient reason to require mask-wearing. Very well. Maybe women will evilly infect all men with lustful thoughts, those devilish seductresses! Therefore it's perfectly reasonable to require them to wear a hijab.

[Vort]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Why is wearing a mask such a burden to you? Do you honestly not care about vulnerable people? Will wearing a mask really cause you that much of a problem? I truly don’t understand it.  I truly don’t. 

Why is wearing a hijab such a burden to a woman? Do they honestly not care about public decency? Will wearing a hijab really cause them that much of a problem? You truly don't understand it. You truly don't.

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

Why is wearing a hijab such a burden to a woman? Do they honestly not care about public decency? Will wearing a hijab really cause them that much of a problem? You truly don't understand it. You truly don't.

Again, PERFECT comparison. 

 

I’m all set. Last word is yours. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by MormonGator

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Again, PERFECT comparison. 

Yet you offer zero explanation for why government officials should be granted the power to require continued mask-wearing for a disease of low lethality and about which we admittedly don't know much. Are we just supposed to believe you because, you know, Florida?

[Vort]

@MormonGator, you've been a good friend on this forum for a long time. I'm not trying to rag on you. But I don't like being publicly called out or shamed because I think that wearing a mask is, for the most part, a futile effort. I do not want the government thinking it can instruct me on necessary precautions by wearing a mask. I see zero evidence—zero—that wearing a mask will ultimately make any difference in this so-called pandemic.

EVERYONE WILL GET COVID. That's a given. Remember "Flatten the Curve"? Apparently not; it seems to have been forgotten by everyone now screaming for masks. It appears that, for the most part, the seriousness of the infection has been largely overstated. The best data suggest that the lethality of CoViD is within an order of magnitude of that associated with the seasonal flu, possibly even as low as (or lower than?) seasonal flu. The current pandemic panic is very clearly a severe overreaction to what is ultimately a relatively mild threat—relative to how it has been portrayed in the media, that is.

It does not take a seer to observe that this CoViD thing is being milked by politicians in a disgusting and, really, frightening way. Those of us who are deeply uncomfortable with the governmental power grab have every right to express that discomfort. Railing against the nonsensical, non-scientific requirement to wear masks everywhere is not unreasonable. Mocking us for such beliefs does not convince any of us, nor does it help your cause (unless your cause is to prejudice the innocent and ignorant against us by poisoning the well).

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Why is wearing a mask such a burden to you? Do you honestly not care about vulnerable people? Will wearing a mask really cause you that much of a problem? I truly don’t understand it.  I truly don’t. 

While I can't speak for everyone, I have a problem wearing masks at all because of breathing issues.  I simply cannot wear a mask for extended periods of time.  Maybe an hour or so.  But my office is asking everyone to wear it all day.  I simply can't do that.  I wear it for a while until I can't breathe.  Then I take it off long enough to catch my breath and regain relaxed breathing.

I've recognized that the mask will take the moisture from my breathing and expand various fibers constricting the openings within the fabric, and by extension, the flow of air.  As I catch my breath, the mask will also dry out.  So, the periodic removal helps both my lungs and the mask.

[Just_A_Guy]

I think there may be a layer of nuance that causes us to talk past each other; in that there’s a difference between voluntarily wearing masks, versus being compelled by government to wear masks on pain of criminal penalty, versus being compelled by government to wear masks on threat of potential civil liability, versus being compelled by private businessmen to wear masks if we wish to avail ourselves of their facilities or services.

I don’t know that @Vort opposes the voluntary use of masks—indeed, I daresay he supports it.  I don’t know that @MormonGator supports government compulsion to wear masks, either by criminal penalty or civil liability; I rather suspect he opposes it.  I don’t think we are as far apart on this as the exchange above might suggest.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Just_A_Guy

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Conservatives are pro life because they want to protect the innocent and helpless, but when it comes to asking them to wear a mask to protect my 88 year old grandmother or 44 year friend with a lung disease, they suddenly say “Hey, everyones gonna get it.” 

Now, this is not a fair comparison.  The rule of thumb is FIRST, do no harm.  We can look at how that can be applied from a medical perspective.  But it's a bit different when applying it from a government perspective.

The idea is to first look at the situation from the perspective of "natural sequence of events." 

• What would happen if no one thought about it and things just went along as if no one knew they could change anything?
• Then what would happen if we did something?  

With abortion, the vast majority of the time, everyone would be healthy.  So, we say, don't do anything.  Let nature take its course.  If we do something, 100% of the time, a baby dies, and the mother often has complications.  The results speak for themselves.

With COVID, the vast majority of the time, people will not die because of a maskless population.  With masks, no real indications that it will actually help the situation in a significant manner.

Then you balance the infringement of individual liberty vs the calculated benefit.  You haven't made much of a case to be pro-mask or pro-abortion.

Instead, you're actually begging the question.  You're assuming that by having a maskless population, your 88 y.o. grandmother has a high chance of death.  And by masking everyone the chances will somehow be reduced a statistically significant amount.  Neither of these is even close to proven.  But your whole argument starts with these assumptions.

Weren't you the one who was touting how this was "nothing"?  "You're more likely to die of the flu that COVID."  Was that you?  Weren't you mocking people who were panicking over Corona?  So, what are you doing?

Edited May 16, 2020 by Carborendum

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Now, this is not a fair comparison

It’s actually a very good one. The right loves to preach about protecting the innocent....but it often stops at birth. After that, they are on their own. If it requires me  to take 30 seconds and put on a mask or spend 50 cents, I don’t really care about protecting anyone.  After all, we’re talking about 50 cents here, and 30 seconds. 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by MormonGator

[Carborendum]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

It’s actually a very good one. The right loves to preach about protecting the innocent....but it often stops at birth. After that, they are on their own. If it requires me  to take 30 seconds and put on a mask or spend 50 cents, I don’t really care about protecting anyone.  After all, we’re talking about 50 cents here, and 30 seconds. 

If you look at my detailed argument, you'd realize that I was not making that argument.

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 I don’t know that @MormonGator supports government compulsion to wear masks, either by criminal penalty or civil liability; I rather suspect he opposes it.  I don’t think we are as far apart on this as the exchange above might suggest.

Correct, I don’t support government forcing you. I don’t think the government should force you to wear a seat belt either. 

But, I strongly support stores/workplaces forcing you to wear one or refusing service/employment. It’s their right, after all. 

And finally, I remain positively floored about the response. Asking to wear a mask isn’t asking for the blood of your first born. 

[Carborendum]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Correct, I don’t support government forcing you. I don’t think the government should force you to wear a seat belt either. 

But, I strongly support stores/workplaces forcing you to wear one or refusing service/employment. It’s their right, after all. 

And finally, I remain positively floored about the response. Asking to wear a mask isn’t asking for the blood of your first born. 

See, this is a perfectly reasonable position.  I would echo that.  But what you wrote before was a completely different idea.

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

If you look at my detailed argument, you'd realize that I was not making that argument.

My response was tongue in cheek, but I do think there’s a degree of truth in it. 

[Carborendum]

From CDC FastStats:

With graphs like these it will be very hard to justify looking at past data to justify an accurate estimate of COVID deaths based on total death numbers alone.  It looks like since 2007, we've been seeing a rise in total death rates regardless.  And the annual changes are so haphazard, it would be difficult to attribute accurate numbers any changes to a single source when we are well aware of several causes of death that are rising during this same period.

[Plein Air]

.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Plein Air

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

It’s actually a very good one. The right loves to preach about protecting the innocent....but it often stops at birth. After that, they are on their own. If it requires me  to take 30 seconds and put on a mask or spend 50 cents, I don’t really care about protecting anyone.  After all, we’re talking about 50 cents here, and 30 seconds. 

 

1)  Grown adults—even immunocompromised ones—are able to protect themselves in ways that children can’t.

2)  Anti-maskers, as petulant and childish as they often are, are motivated by a desire to breathe freely.  Abortionists are motivated by a desire for consequence-free sex.

I’m not saying I agree with anti-maskers, not at all.  But I have a big problem equating someone who just wants to breathe normally in public (even if there’s a 5% chance that doing so may incidentally get someone else sick and a .01% chance that that “someone” will die—and that “someone” is fully capable of taking their own actions that will reduce the risk to themselves) with another person who, for the sake of sexual gratification, wants to do something that creates a 100% chance of killing an utterly defenseless baby.

Comparing anti-maskers with abortionists seems rather like comparing 2nd Amendment advocates with fascists.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 Anti-maskers, as petulant and childish as they often are, are motivated by a desire to breathe freely.

I highly doubt that. We obviously can't tell what their motivations are because we can't read minds. I can only guess it's what I said. Insensitivity? Maybe. Cruelty? Maybe in some cases (no, no one here. Again, no one here. Again, no one here). A "Don't push me around and tell me what to do" attitude? Maybe. I sympathize with the final one, I have that attitude too. But, I also care about my grandmother (and, ironically, yours), my pregnant sister (and, again, ironically, yours), her newborn, my friend with COPD, HIV...so I put my feelings aside and wear a mask.  Even if it only works 25% of the time (I don't know the stats) are you so stubborn/uncaring/cruel/selfish as to not wear one? 

We agree totally that the anti-maskers are childish and petulant. 

And no, my abortion comparison wasn't 100% accurate, nor was it meant to be. But there's a lot of truth to it. The more I think about it, interestingly enough, the more "harsh/uncomfortable truth" it shows.   

Edited May 16, 2020 by MormonGator

[Just_A_Guy]

19 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I highly doubt that. We obviously can't tell what their motivations are because we can't read minds. I can only guess it's what I said. Insensitivity? Maybe. Cruelty? Maybe in some cases (no, no one here. Again, no one here. Again, no one here). A "Don't push me around and tell me what to do" attitude? Maybe. I sympathize with the final one, I have that attitude too. But, I also care about my grandmother (and, ironically, yours), my pregnant sister (and, again, ironically, yours), her newborn, my friend with COPD, HIV...so I put my feelings aside and wear a mask.  Even if it only works 25% of the time (I don't know the stats) are you so stubborn/uncaring/cruel/selfish as to not wear one? 

We agree in principle, but let me push you a bit; because I’m curious where this goes (and I’m still shaping my own thinking on the matter):

Given that people who unknowingly carry ordinary flu and other potentially deadly airborne diseases, have through the course of daily commerce and contact contaminated their fellow man throughout the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, resulting in tens if not hundreds of thousands of deaths each year amongst the sick and the aged and the otherwise immunocompromised—

—Aren’t you really making the case that morally speaking, we never should have stopped wearing face masks after 1918?  And aren’t you really arguing that, indeed, we should keep on wearing masks even after the current COVID-19 pandemic burns out, and on into the future indefinitely?

If not, why not?

Is the life of a person who dies of ordinary flu, worth less—in principle, in sacrifice, in inconvenience to the rest of us—than the life of a person who dies of COVID-19?