prisonchaplain's first lesson on King David

[prisonchaplain]

The overall lesson of King David, since this series focuses on failures, is that David committed the big 3 (adultery, deception, murder) and yet became a man after God's own heart. This is the first of two lessons and focuses on David's early blessings and initial sin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cff_w80da68

 

[Guest Scott]

37 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

The overall lesson of King David, since this series focuses on failures, is that David committed the big 3 (adultery, deception, murder) and yet became a man after God's own heart. This is the first of two lessons and focuses on David's early blessings and initial sin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cff_w80da68

 

I'm guessing I'm opening myself to a lot of criticism here, but after David became king, I just can't view him as a good guy based on the Biblical account.

Yes, he committed adultery and murder, but he also did things like crucify/impale people, or at least turned people over to those who would do this, which seems far worse than the murder and adultery concerning Bathsheba.  King David did this for the sake of someone else requesting revenge on someone else's offspring vs. doing it to the perpetrators themselves.  See 2 Samuel 21 for one example (KJV says hanged, but impaled is the most likely fate and is the word several other Bible version use.  In the Old Testament "hanging" refers to impaling and crucifixion).

That wasn't all he did.  He did a lot of horrible things to a lot of people.  

Maybe there is something missing in the Biblical account, but I still can't picture him as being a good guy.  He may have started that way, but not later in life.

The same is true for me about Sampson and Solomon.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Scott

[prisonchaplain]

Hebrews 11:

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

 

I don't disagree with your facts @Scott. Nevertheless, the writer of Hebrews includes him in the chapter of faith. Also, religious Jews consider him the greatest Jews. Jerusalem is the City of David. Jesus is of the line of David. You do make my point, though. We can stumble into tremendous sin and yet repent, and accomplish great good. At the same time, even after great accomplishments, we can stumble, fumble and fail. Our solution is "Just a daily walk with Thee."

Edited May 19, 2020 by prisonchaplain

[Vort]

As you probably know, PC, we Latter-day Saints consider David to be a fallen prophet, one who has lost his exaltation and will now receive that which he was willing to receive instead of that which he might have received. How ancestral and cultural Jews perceive David is unlikely to change LDS perceptions on the matter. I'm offering this as an explanation, not as any sort of correction.

[Guest Scott]

15 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Hebrews 11:

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

Yes, and Hebrews 11 also praises Jephthae, who offered his daughter as a burt offering (though some people try and dance around this and come up with an alternate explanation even though the scriptures are clear on the matter).  Jephthae is praised right before King David in that verse in Hebrews.

Quote

Also, religious Jews consider him the greatest Jews.

Yes.  Christians (including the LDS) praise him a lot too (though the LDS believe him to be a fallen prophet).  I personally can't view him as a good guy though, at least not later in his life.  I do know that some might disagree. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Scott

[Guest Scott]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

As you probably know, PC, we Latter-day Saints consider David to be a fallen prophet, one who has lost his exaltation and will now receive that which he was willing to receive instead of that which he might have received. How ancestral and cultural Jews perceive David is unlikely to change LDS perceptions on the matter. I'm offering this as an explanation, not as any sort of correction.

I agree Vort. 

One thing I don't understand though is why (in Sunday school at least), the only focus is on the adultery and murder concerning Bathsheba that seems to be mentioned.  King David did a lot more bad things than that and things that seem far worse. Or at least that's what the OT account says.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Scott

[prisonchaplain]

8 minutes ago, Vort said:

As you probably know, PC, we Latter-day Saints consider David to be a fallen prophet, one who has lost his exaltation and will now receive that which he was willing to receive instead of that which he might have received. How ancestral and cultural Jews perceive David is unlikely to change LDS perceptions on the matter. I'm offering this as an explanation, not as any sort of correction.

People are often surprised at what I do know and what I don't. Today, I learned something new. 🤷‍♂️

Edited May 19, 2020 by prisonchaplain

[prisonchaplain]

9 minutes ago, Scott said:

Yes.  Christians (including the LDS) praise him a lot too (though the LDS believe him to be a fallen prophet).  I personally can't view him as a good guy though, at least not later in his life.  I do know that some might disagree. 

I was not aware of this. Thank you. Your reaction makes perfect sense now that I have this missing peace.

[Guest Scott]

8 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I was not aware of this. Thank you. Your reaction makes perfect sense now that I have this missing peace.

The Bible Dictionary synopsis of King David, which both praises him, but points out some of the consequences of his actions:

David’s sin of adultery with Bathsheba was followed by a series of misfortunes that marred the last twenty years of his life. The nation as a whole was prosperous during his reign, but David himself suffered from the consequences of his sins. There were constant family feuds, which, in the case of Absalom and Adonijah, ended in open rebellion. These incidents are a fulfillment of the pronouncement of Nathan the prophet upon David because of his sin (2 Sam. 12:7–13).

In spite of these disasters, David’s reign was the most brilliant of Israelite history, for (1) he united the tribes into one nation, (2) he secured undisputed possession of the country, (3) he based the government on the true religion so that the will of God was the law of Israel. For these reasons, David’s reign was later regarded as the nation’s golden age and the type of the more glorious age when the Messiah would come (Isa. 16:5; Jer. 23:5; Ezek. 37:24–28).

David’s life illustrates the need for all persons to endure in righteousness to the end. As a youth, he was said to be a man after the Lord’s “own heart” (1 Sam. 13:14); as a man, he spoke by the Spirit and had many revelations. But he paid a heavy price for his disobedience to the commandments of God (D&C 132:39).

‐------‐‐-------------------------

Anyway, if I were to choose and OT hero to emulate, it would be Joseph.

[Guest Scott]

Here is King David's last wish as related to Solomon while King David was on his death bed.

King David asked Solomon to kill an elderly man who called him a name and threw a rock at him (further, when it happened King David said that the Lord commanded the elderly man to curse him [David] because David was a murderer).  King David promised the Lord that he wouldn't kill him, so on his deathbed he asked Solomon to do it:

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Scott

[prisonchaplain]

8 hours ago, Scott said:

Anyway, if I were to choose and OT hero to emulate, it would be Joseph.

If I were in Catholic hierarchy, and had the authority, I would declare Joseph the patron saint of prisoners. Perhaps it's enough that I agree with you.

[JohnsonJones]

10 hours ago, Vort said:

As you probably know, PC, we Latter-day Saints consider David to be a fallen prophet, one who has lost his exaltation and will now receive that which he was willing to receive instead of that which he might have received. How ancestral and cultural Jews perceive David is unlikely to change LDS perceptions on the matter. I'm offering this as an explanation, not as any sort of correction.

A fallen Prophet?

Depends on the definition of what a Prophet is.

Another take on the issue...

Was he a Prophet?  Just as many of us today are Prophets.

However, he was not a prophet in the sense that Samuel or Nathan were prophets.

He was the anointed King, and in that way, the chosen of the Lord in leadership. 

Today there is no real comparison.  It would be if we had our Prophet (Russell M. Nelson) as the prophet, and then we had another leader set over our nation on temporal affairs that was actually chosen by the Lord (rather than by us) to lead us who was righteous and turned to the Lord for guidance to tell him what and where to go by revelation and spiritual inspiration. 

I don't know if we necessarily all think David was a Prophet in the same sense as Samuel, or Noah, or Moses.  In his entry on the church's site it says he had revelations, but doesn't seem to specify that he was a Prophet per se. 

I think it could be seen he was more akin to someone like Captain Moroni from the Book of Mormon or other leaders who were led by the Lord, but not necessarily the Lord's mouthpiece itself.

On the otherhand, I can also see a strong argument he was a prophet, but I do not necessarily think the church necessarily says he was THE Prophet of his time today.

David

If one sees him as the anointed king and the Leader in that fashion, but not replacing THE prophet as Samuel or Nathan were in his day, we can see the stark warning that many who can receive the great blessings of the Lord, even the highest blessings, but unless we endure to the end, we can also still stumble and fall into sin.  On the otherhand, even if we sin to the most grievous degree in murder and adultery, we can be forgiven (as David will not be left in Hell, but will come to Heaven, albeit in a lesser degree of glory than he could have) if we truly repent.

Edited May 19, 2020 by JohnsonJones