Deception, the Spirit, and our bodies


laronius
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I recently read a Forbes article about deepfake videos and the threat they pose as technology becomes so advanced that it might become impossible to distinguish between real and fake or at least so real looking that they can deceive people. This new form of deception got me to thinking about how in the scriptures there is much said about deception in the last days and the importance of having the Spirit and seeking spiritual gifts in order to discern between truth and anything intended to deceive. A common saying is "seeing is believing" and while we all know that our senses can be tricked we still of necessity rely to a large degree upon what we see in how we process the world around us and consequently the choices we make in response. But it would seem that we are getting to the point where that form of truth gathering is becoming less and less reliable. The "mists of darkness" in Lehi's dream are becoming more prevalent. This of course is but the latest attempt by Satan to distract, dull or outright deaden all of our senses. In the temple we are blessed specifically to be able to withstand these attacks on our physical senses and their spiritual counterparts. I think that the key to this is the Spirit and its ability to  enhance our bodies. I am reminded of Parley P Pratt's comment on the Spirit's effect on the body.

The gift of the Holy Ghost … quickens all the intellectual faculties, increases, enlarges, expands and purifies all the natural passions and affections; and adapts them, by the gift of wisdom, to their lawful use. It inspires, develops, cultivates and matures all the fine-toned sympathies, joys, tastes, kindred feelings, and affections of our nature. It inspires virtue, kindness, goodness, tenderness, gentleness, and charity. It develops beauty of person, form and features. It tends to health, vigor, animation, and social feeling. It invigorates all the faculties of the physical and intellectual man. It strengthens, and gives tone to the nerves. In short, it is, as it were, marrow to the bone, joy to the heart, light to the eyes, music to the ears, and life to the whole being. (Key to the Science of Theology, 9th ed. [1965], p. 101) 

But my question to all this is how much can or perhaps will the Spirit enhance our physical bodies? Of course a priesthood blessing can heal any manner of infirmity but I was wondering if anyone has any experience (not too sacred) that they are willing to share where they felt the Spirit's ability to renew them or their senses physically. Any comments on anything I mentioned are welcome as well.

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On 5/29/2020 at 8:12 PM, laronius said:

But my question to all this is how much can or perhaps will the Spirit enhance our physical bodies? Of course a priesthood blessing can heal any manner of infirmity but I was wondering if anyone has any experience (not too sacred) that they are willing to share where they felt the Spirit's ability to renew them or their senses physically. Any comments on anything I mentioned are welcome as well.

All mental processes are physiological, so when the Holy Ghost influences your thoughts and feelings (which are sometimes accompanied by bodily sensations), the senses are being quickened or renewed. Thus our bodies are filled with light.

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On 5/29/2020 at 8:12 PM, laronius said:

In the temple we are blessed specifically to be able to withstand these attacks on our physical senses and their spiritual counterparts.

How do non-temple-going Latter-day Saints withstand these attacks?

Jonah

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Yeah, Jonah asks a good question.    Going to the temple increases my spirituality, dedication to be a disciple of Christ, motivation to be a better Christian, but it doesn't make me any smarter.   Some of my fellow temple-attending LDS folks share some pretty stupid things on Facebook, having fallen hook-and-nail for this or that fake news or sensational spin from this or that political agenda.

The pavilion of the LORD is broad and covers many people.  When I go to the temple, I may be sitting next to an anti-vaxxer, or someone who doesn't believe in evolution.  Yet we are similarly edified and spiritually strengthened.

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46 minutes ago, Jonah said:

Do you know temple-goers who believe in evolution instead of creation?

I know of a few, actually.  

I even know some :: gasp :: democrats who go to the temple too! 😉

Edited by MormonGator
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1 hour ago, Jonah said:

Do you know temple-goers who believe in evolution instead of creation?

Depends on demographics, but I'd say in my ward, probably 75% are well-versed enough in evolution to understand it is a real thing.  I'm guessing most believe in a symbolic reading of Genesis.  And I'd guess most don't care enough about the debate to have anything to say when asked "did death exist before Adam and Eve".   There'll be a few young-earth creationists.

I haven't heard anyone actually get heated about this topic anywhere but the internet, in more than a quarter century.

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On 5/31/2020 at 5:56 AM, CV75 said:

All mental processes are physiological, so when the Holy Ghost influences your thoughts and feelings (which are sometimes accompanied by bodily sensations), the senses are being quickened or renewed. Thus our bodies are filled with light.

You said that "all mental processes are physiological" and then described an "influence" that isn't physiological. Could you explain that? Bodily sensations are physiological, but mental processes, like thought - how does the Holy Ghost influence that biologically?

Personally, I think our mind is not our brain. It is a conduit through which we receive knowledge from all our senses which I think we can't or shouldn't limit to the physical world, IOW, not just the 5 senses. It is literally our connection with God and all things unseen. The mind, our thoughts, is our spirit. So, I disagree with the statement that All mental processes are physiological. That would mean that all that we are is the sum total of our environment and that is simply not true.

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I haven't heard anyone actually get heated about this topic anywhere but the internet, in more than a quarter century.

Bing bing bing.  Many anti-Christians think "Oh, Christians don't believe in evolution! They think women should be stuck at home and not educated! They believe children born out of wedlock are condemned to Hell!" None of this, of course, is true. This isn't 1964 anymore.

Often times religious people are far more "modern" than given credit for. Sure, you can still find dinosaurs out there but most religious people aren't stuck in the 60's. 

Edited by MormonGator
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2 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

You said that "all mental processes are physiological" and then described an "influence" that isn't physiological. Could you explain that? Bodily sensations are physiological, but mental processes, like thought - how does the Holy Ghost influence that biologically?

Personally, I think our mind is not our brain. It is a conduit through which we receive knowledge from all our senses which I think we can't or shouldn't limit to the physical world, IOW, not just the 5 senses. It is literally our connection with God and all things unseen. The mind, our thoughts, is our spirit. So, I disagree with the statement that All mental processes are physiological. That would mean that all that we are is the sum total of our environment and that is simply not true.

Inasmuch as sunlight is directly involved the biological process of photosynthesis, visual and other forms of light have been shown to have psychological impact. The undiscovered "more fine or pure" matter (which is a form of energy, and both move in waves, e.g. Alma 32:28) are a matter of faith and not traditional scientific empirical research, but would nevertheless have impact.

Edited by CV75
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On 6/6/2020 at 12:02 PM, Jonah said:

How do non-temple-going Latter-day Saints withstand these attacks?

Jonah

Go to the temple. 😁 

I believe that these blessings are largely a function of the Spirit in our lives. This is a gift offered at baptism to help us keep our covenants and to prepare us to make additional covenants in the temple where we find greater fulfilment of the blessings promised at baptism. So get the Spirit and then as soon as possible get to the temple.

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Bing bing bing.  Many anti-Christians think "Oh, Christians don't believe in evolution! They think women should be stuck at home and not educated! They believe children born out of wedlock are condemned to Hell!" None of this, of course, is true. This isn't 1964 anymore.

In fact, most Christians didn't believe that last two points were true even in 1964. Many Christians, including most Latter-day Saints, believe a woman's highest duty, honor, and joy is in the home, so they would object to the blatantly slanted "stuck at home" wording.

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4 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

You said that "all mental processes are physiological" and then described an "influence" that isn't physiological. Could you explain that? Bodily sensations are physiological, but mental processes, like thought - how does the Holy Ghost influence that biologically?

Personally, I think our mind is not our brain. It is a conduit through which we receive knowledge from all our senses which I think we can't or shouldn't limit to the physical world, IOW, not just the 5 senses. It is literally our connection with God and all things unseen. The mind, our thoughts, is our spirit. So, I disagree with the statement that All mental processes are physiological. That would mean that all that we are is the sum total of our environment and that is simply not true.

I've thought a bit on that on why we have a consciousness separate from what our memories and thoughts are, and had the thought that our brains are more like processor units for our Spirits.  Our spirits cannot convey thoughts or actions to the body without the mind (the processor) but our consciousness is within our spirit, not necessarily our mind.

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

In fact, most Christians didn't believe that last two points were true even in 1964.

I hope you are right, and I'm sure you are. But, all I can say is that growing up, when I went to public school, everyone knew I was adopted and no one cared. When I went to Catholic school, it was the first time in my life I was ever teased for being born "out of wedlock" and for "being adopted." It happened to my sister as well, and I've spoken to other adopted kids (granted, not many of them) who have had similar experiences with...Christians.  

Now, I understand (and, I understood back then) that there is nothing wrong with me being adopted or being born "out of wedlock" and that it's contrary to Christian teaching to treat kids who were in a poor way. But, it happened, and the kids obviously got it from somewhere. And it's always been ironic to me that secular kids didn't care. But the religious ones did. 

And this was in the 90's. 

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Many Christians, including most Latter-day Saints, believe a woman's highest duty, honor, and joy is in the home, so they would object to the blatantly slanted "stuck at home" wording.

Noted. Interestingly enough though, now that more and more women have the option to work outside the home, they do so. So maybe they get their happiness from working outside the home as well. 

Or selling terrible MLM schemes. 

Edited by MormonGator
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14 hours ago, MormonGator said:
15 hours ago, Vort said:

Many Christians, including most Latter-day Saints, believe a woman's highest duty, honor, and joy is in the home, so they would object to the blatantly slanted "stuck at home" wording.

Noted. Interestingly enough though, now that more and more women have the option to work outside the home, they do so. So maybe they get their happiness from working outside the home as well. 

Or selling terrible MLM schemes. 

Sad if true. Ideally, everyone should derive satisfaction and perhaps even a measure of what our vain and immature society calls "fulfillment" from his or her honest employment. But the woman (or man) who bases her (his) happiness and fulfillment on work is lost. The person who does not put God, family, and home first and highest on his priority list is a fool. If you do not put first things first, in the end it won't matter what you do put first, because you will lose everything. This is exactly as true for women as it is for men.

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14 minutes ago, Vort said:

Sad if true. Ideally, everyone should derive satisfaction and perhaps even a measure of what our vain and immature society calls "fulfillment" from his or her honest employment. But the woman (or man) who bases her (his) happiness and fulfillment on work is lost. The person who does not put God, family, and home first and highest on his priority list is a fool. If you do not put first things first, in the end it won't matter what you do put first, because you will lose everything. This is exactly as true for women as it is for men.

The idea that women can only find fulfillment in the professional world is just a big Tom Sawyer joke.  It's all based on rhetoric to degrade the importance of the family.

Here's the reverse rhetoric: Come join the rat race!  This is where it's at! Who would be interested in doing so if we put it that way?

I do a lot of my work from home.  And I can tell you that being home with the kids as I work is a HUGE blessing.  I find it immensely fulfilling to be able to help with the house and the kids (and now gardening :) ) nearly every day.  I envy the old fashioned farmer who worked the land with his hands, then got to see his wife and kids every morning, lunch, and evening.  And to have some of his kids with him in the field would be even more cherished.

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12 minutes ago, Vort said:

Sad if true. Ideally, everyone should derive satisfaction and perhaps even a measure of what our vain and immature society calls "fulfillment" from his or her honest employment. But the woman (or man) who bases her (his) happiness and fulfillment on work is lost. The person who does not put God, family, and home first and highest on his priority list is a fool. If you do not put first things first, in the end it won't matter what you do put first, because you will lose everything. This is exactly as true for women as it is for men.

I believe it was the Prophet David O McKay said in essence - that there is no success that can compensate for failure in the home.

I think a problem now days is figuring out what success in the home looks like.

 

The Traveler

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2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I think a problem now days is figuring out what success in the home looks like.

Call me cynical, but it seems that the common wisdom of today is that "success in the home" is:

  • Get them their anti-depressants
  • Teach them to use birth control
  • Try not to OD on drugs
  • Figure out if you're cisgendered or not.
Edited by Carborendum
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2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Call me cynical, but it seems that the common wisdom of today is that "success in the home" is getting them their anti-depressants,  teaching your kids to use birth control, try not to OD on drugs, and try to figure out if you're cisgendered or not.

I had intended my remarks to be more pointed to the Latter-day Saints.  But you may have a point in that the use of anti-depressants seems unusually high among the saints.

 

The Traveler

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Anti-depressants have successfully treated depression in millions of people. You should probably tread very carefully because it doesn't sound like you know what you are talking about. 

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

.  I envy the old fashioned farmer who worked the land with his hands, then got to see his wife and kids every morning, lunch, and evening.

Ironic that you mention that. My grandfather was "old fashioned farmer" who loved his family deeply, but hated farming. He demanded all of his kids go to college and forbade any of them from working on a farm. He wisely knew that it was backbreaking labor, and those who romanticized it usually didn't work on farms. 

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23 minutes ago, Traveler said:

But you may have a point in that the use of anti-depressants seems unusually high among the saints.

Is it?  That's interesting.  I guess it makes sense.  Doterra sells a lot among the Saints as well.  Why not anti-depressants?

I wonder if it is because of the idea that everyone should always be happy?  In earlier generations it was a lot easier to be happy.  No social media.  They called it "Happy Valley" for a reason.  Today, there is so much wrong with the world.  I certainly sense a withdrawal of the Spirit from the world at large.  Maybe the Saints are more sensitive to it than others.  It is a depressing thought.  

Hey, honey, can you pass me the Zoloft?  Oh, BTW, you left your Prozac in the car.

I remember dealing with depression myself and I refused to take anti-depressants.  At first I tried some.  But they either didn't do anything or they caused me to have severe reactions.  Eventually, I just assumed that they were either sugar pills or just as addictive as other drugs.  So, I refused.  It's been a long haul.  But I think I'm through it.

Today, they're now discovering that anti-depressants are also addictive -- even after many professionals swearing to me that they were in no way addictive.  Pffbbtt.  I can tell how my body reacts to drugs.  And some of those I took were just plain addictive.

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On 6/8/2020 at 1:39 PM, Carborendum said:

Is it?  That's interesting.  I guess it makes sense.  Doterra sells a lot among the Saints as well.  Why not anti-depressants?

I wonder if it is because of the idea that everyone should always be happy?  In earlier generations it was a lot easier to be happy.  No social media.  They called it "Happy Valley" for a reason.  Today, there is so much wrong with the world.  I certainly sense a withdrawal of the Spirit from the world at large.  Maybe the Saints are more sensitive to it than others.  It is a depressing thought.  

Hey, honey, can you pass me the Zoloft?  Oh, BTW, you left your Prozac in the car.

I remember dealing with depression myself and I refused to take anti-depressants.  At first I tried some.  But they either didn't do anything or they caused me to have severe reactions.  Eventually, I just assumed that they were either sugar pills or just as addictive as other drugs.  So, I refused.  It's been a long haul.  But I think I'm through it.

Today, they're now discovering that anti-depressants are also addictive -- even after many professionals swearing to me that they were in no way addictive.  Pffbbtt.  I can tell how my body reacts to drugs.  And some of those I took were just plain addictive.

So...all those people who suffer from depression and rely on anti depressants to elevate their mood and keep them from soul shattering sadness....should they throw away their pills and be miserable? 

Are you afraid of the medical industry? Honest question. 

Edited by MormonGator
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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

So...all those people who suffer from depression and rely on anti depressants to elevate their mood and keep them from soul shattering sadness....should they throw away their pills and be miserable?

No. They should throw away their pills and find other, more appropriate ways to overcome depression, perhaps not even in that order.

One in six Americans takes a psychiatric drug. One in six. That's 17%. I refuse to believe that the majority of those people require psychiatric drugs to live in a normal and sane manner. I have seen depression close-up, and I have great sympathy for those who experience it. In some cases, drugs might even be a short-term solution. But evolutionary principles argue heavily against a 17% rate of needing psychiatric drugs. Darwinianism is a ruthless weeder-outer of the weak. What would society be like where one in six was seriously disabled from psychiatric issues? How could society even exist? What would be the evolutionary reason why those prone to such crippling depression would have some sort of reproductive or survival advantage?

The pharmaceutical industry is worth more than a trillion dollars. That's trillion, with a 't', TWELVE TIMES what it was in 2017. And it's only going to go up. If you can't see this for what it is, essentially Madison Avenue expanding into new and profitable territory, then I don't know what to tell you.

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Are you afraid of the medical industry? Honest question. 

I am afraid of the "evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days." Insofar as the medical industry is a part of this secret combination, then yes, I'm afraid of it and want to protect my family from it. Any sane person would feel the same way.

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

No. They should throw away their pills and find other, more appropriate ways to overcome depression, perhaps not even in that order.

One in six Americans takes a psychiatric drug.

I betcha most of those are kids who are given drugs in lieu of proper parenting/teaching.

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