Carborendum

Carb's Take on Racism

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I grew up in a city were there was not a single black person.  My first exposure to blacks was in the army.  To be honest I did not know what to think of them.  I was in basic training in Louisiana in the late 60's.  There was racism at the time - both in the military and off base in Louisiana.  I was impressed that the only demographic more hated more than blacks were the "Mormons".  Coming from Utah were "Mormons" were the majority this new condition was a culture shock - so much so that I did not believe the hatred was that real.  But those on the bottom of the food chain will become natural allies and friends.

I remember one weekend evening watching some good old boys playing poker and listening to them talking.  It was about sports.  Generally the talk was such that it would be good for blacks to play certain positions in football but that there would never be a black quarterback because they lack the intelligence to play that position.  I was standing next to my black bud and expected him to put them straight.   When he did not respond, I nudged him and encouraged him to say something.  He took be outside to try to explain why speaking up was not a good idea.  

Over the years I made friends that included blacks.  I have learned that prejudice (racism) is something that comes quite easy and to not be prejudice (raciest) is something that has to be learned.  Sometime we get so caught up with details that we cannot see the big picture.  I was working with a black guy when I was working for the defense department.  I attempted to explain that there are seeds of racism among blacks towards white guys like me.  He would not believe it and determined to prove it to me.  We decided to go to one of his favorite places for lunch - together.  The place he picked was an exclusive hangout for blacks.  He also wanted me to experience what is is like to be in a place where I was the only white guy.  I thought it would be a good idea.  After about 5 or maybe 10 minutes - he turned to me and suggested that we leave.  I later learned he was never able to go back because he had brought a white guy.  He learned that reverse racism does exist and I learned what it is like to be somewhere where it seem no one looks like me or likes me for no more reason than my skin color.  

The whole idea of prejudice is to pre-judge someone based on an initial impression of them before we know enough about them to make a reliable assumption.  We all have prejudices.  I learned in college not to believe any girl that wanted to line me up with someone that they thought was good looking.  I have a prejudice that what the female gender thinks is good looking among girls is quite different than what guys think.   In marriage I have learned that there is a great deal of prejudice (sexism) between men and women that results in a lot of unfilled expectations.   I have told my wife many times that she should not try so hard to do everything I do and then expect me to do anything she cannot - sometimes I forget what she can and cannot do.  I could add to this list things she says I do poorly just because I am a guy.

I have become convinced that people are different.  That in part the difference is part of G-d's plan for us.  For us to learn to deal with differences for the good of all.  But you know - it can be hard to like someone that is different.  Even here on the forum it is easy to form feeling of dislike of certain other that disagree with our opinions.  I understand I have my faults and there are some I have a hard time trying to be friendly.  But i would like to be more friendly.  If there is anyone to which I have been unfriendly - I apologize.  Let me know - I would like to work on making you a friend -- I need all the friends I can get!

 

The Traveler

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I recall efforts, back in the 1990s, at racial reconciliation. One powerful service had the leadership of predominantly white fellowships and denominations washing the feet of leaders from predominantly African-American ones. It was appropriate and seemed Spirit-driven. There was one African-American minister who said something to the effect of, "Very good. Now when will you walk with us to support Affirmative Action, increased welfare, etc.?"

So, here we are 25 years later. Black Lives Matters Inc. was founded upon the notion that African-Americans are targeted by racist law enforcement for aggressive encounters, including shoot-to-kills.

25 years ago I wondered if I could be seen as an ally of African-Americans, since I did not support Affirmative Action quotas. Today I wonder the same, since I do not believe law enforcement is systemically racist. :dontknow:

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3 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Then again, one of the best compliments I ever received was when my peer, a Korean professor (yes, in Korea) told me I was 4/3rds Korean. :winner:

I take it he wasn't a math professor.

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8 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

"Very good. Now when will you walk with us to support Affirmative Action, increased welfare, etc.?"

This sentence exemplifies why I really struggle when I discuss contentious issues with my liberal family and friends. Take the recent troubles for example. After examining the issues and evidence, I supported bringing the officers who killed George Floyd to trial. I also believe that too many times in the past, police unions have protected bad cops who needed to be fired and prosecuted, and I think we have some room to make some positive changes there. But it's never enough for them. In fact, listening to my liberal friends and family, you would think my attempt to find some areas of compromise to make some changes is worse than if I was walking around with a swastika on my face because I admit there are some problems, but I don't want to eliminate the police department and think burning down a mom and pop store while rioting is wrong. The constant moving of goalposts is one reason (among many) I've never been attracted to liberal points of view.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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57 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

if I was walking around with a swastika on my face

We've all seen what you do on the weekends, @Midwest LDS.

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11 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I don't get the distinction between racist and ignorance/media-based racial.  Are they not the same thing?  Meaning, when you remove someone's ignorance and they've internalized the truth about a human's inherent worth no matter what the color, is it possible for either term to remain applicable? 

They're not the same thing.

I'll give you an example... growing up in the Philippines in the 70's, a lot of our TV shows are Cowboys (always white) vs. Indians.  So, what we know as ignorant Filipinos is that Cowboys are good, Indians are bad.  So, this Filipino going to America for the first time will have a subconscious fear of Native Americans.  It takes quite a while to get over that "conditioning".

Since the 80's TVs and Movies have stopped portraying American black people as the bad guys.  So my generation of Filipinos are growing up having Apollo Creed as a hero.  And then there's the Thrilla in Manila making Muhammad Ali as a hero.  And there's Beverly Hills Cop, very popular in the Philippines.  So, my mother's generation have that subconscious fear of blacks that has since gone by the wayside in my generation.  Of course, in the USA, you are exposed to a lot more diverse TVs and movies so your experience growing up is different.

And that's really the problem with raising an entire racial minority on the concept that they are victims since babyhood.  The fear becomes subconscious. 

One good thing that came out of the Information Superhighway is that Filipinos these days get the same TV and Movie shows as Americans.  So we're not limited anymore to just the most popular shows.

On the flip side - now we have full access to American news - and if you just drop on the planet from another galaxy, you would think it's the 60's again, the cops are going after black people, and Trump is Hitler.

Edited by anatess2

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1 hour ago, Midwest LDS said:

This sentence exemplifies why I really struggle when I discuss contentious issues with my liberal family and friends. Take the recent troubles for example. After examining the issues and evidence, I supported bringing the officers who killed George Floyd to trial. I also believe that too many times in the past, police unions have protected bad cops who needed to be fired and prosecuted, and I think we have some room to make some positive changes there. But it's never enough for them. In fact, listening to my liberal friends and family, you would think my attempt to find some areas of compromise to make some changes is worse than if I was walking around with a swastika on my face because I admit there are some problems, but I don't want to eliminate the police department and think burning down a mom and pop store while rioting is wrong. The constant moving of goalposts is one reason (among many) I've never been attracted to liberal points of view.

One day we’re going to wake up and find that “If You Give a Mouse a Cookie” was actually the greatest political science textbook ever written.

The day after that, it will be banned.

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3 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

This sentence exemplifies why I really struggle when I discuss contentious issues with my liberal family and friends. Take the recent troubles for example. After examining the issues and evidence, I supported bringing the officers who killed George Floyd to trial. I also believe that too many times in the past, police unions have protected bad cops who needed to be fired and prosecuted, and I think we have some room to make some positive changes there. But it's never enough for them. In fact, listening to my liberal friends and family, you would think my attempt to find some areas of compromise to make some changes is worse than if I was walking around with a swastika on my face because I admit there are some problems, but I don't want to eliminate the police department and think burning down a mom and pop store while rioting is wrong. The constant moving of goalposts is one reason (among many) I've never been attracted to liberal points of view.

Politics are so deceitful.  The number one reason there are bad cops is because of police unions that protect them.  It is interesting to me that no one that I have seen in any of the demonstrations are demanding the dismantling  of the police unions???   But let me state that I am not against the concept of unions - I am against the concept that bureaucrats are needed to deal with bureaucrats.  In short that corrupt organizations are the best thing to use in dealing with other corrupt organizations.   But this post is not about union corruption but rather the rot of blame that corruption brings to the table.  If we look carefully at corrupt police unions we will discover that they contribute very heavily to Democrats - I believe it is like 90%+.  And that the greatest problems that have come to light are in predominately Democratic strongholds. 

I am not a Trump fan - but I am dumbfounded that Democrats that have taken campaign funds from police unions are so happy to blame Trump for any police corruption - and that so many are so politically prejudice that they swallow this nonsense hook line and sinker.  I believe there is an excellent microcosm of what is going on.  One of the greatest dangers for police are dealing with domestic violence.  This is because as violent as family members can be towards each other - that violence by both parties can quickly be turned towards anyone outside the family trying to stop it.  And so it is that police unions and administrations of liberal leaders in municipalities married to each other's corruptions are quick to deflect blame whenever possible.

So what ought the Saints of G-d to do?  

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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Fear of minorities is not necessarily from TV, radio, or other items, nor is it necessarily passed down from parents.  In the South there are areas you simply do not go if you are not black.  It is a good way to get killed if you go there.  You either learn quickly, or you end up seriously injured at some point and learn that way after being handicapped for life, or you die.  Sometimes fear is born out of self preservation instincts, and learning from those who did not have any self preservation about them.  

I don't know how to change that dynamic.  Police are even wary about going to certain areas themselves, especially if they are white.  Part of the problem in these instances are complicated by the things that happen in those types of areas, and throwing away caution because one does not want to be racial in that instance will only cause one to be mugged at the very least (and they can count their blessings if it ends only in that) and dead if it is allowed to go far enough.  

Unfortunately, the stories of these areas are normally not brought up in the headlines of media...but I think changing how these areas act towards others could be a bigger key to getting rid of inherent racism and stereotypes they face than trying to point out the mistreatment of minorities in the other direction (which normally do not result in as many muggings or deaths).

The problems in these areas are so terribly bad that they even kill themselves, and in many ways, the amount of violence perpetrated by Blacks upon other blacks is FAR WORSE than that perpetrated upon them by whites or other minorities.

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1 hour ago, ldsguy422 said:

 How could defunding the police possibly make the public more safe ? Who is more likely to be impacted by that kind of reform? 

I will speculate that law enforcement will become regional - perhaps by neighborhood.  Each will have their own armed militia.  Areas of poverty and weak militias will be taken over by organized crime (drug cartels) that will become the enforcers with the absents of police and militia.  Or things could get worse and we will see our country descend into violence with brother against brother and fathers against sons.  And with equality of the sexes - who knows what else.

I do not think things will go this far.  One or two cities may defund their police - but I think it will become both short lived and bloody.   We will learn what happens when a generation grows up with an entitlement mentality.  Now that the church is more global - it will be most interesting what the church will do.  Perhaps a final gathering for those in the USA?

If someone had suggested, just 6 months ago, that the nation would be in our current circumstance - I would have thought them to be a foolish crackpot and suggest that they be institutionalized.  I am thinking if someone wants to make a financial killing - that they invest in gun and ammunition manufacturing that is likely to become the next toilet paper and sanitary wipes type commodity on store shelves. 

As for me - I have decided to double down on personal repentance.  To those of the forum that I have ever offended in any way - I am sorry and ask for your forgiveness. 

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, ldsguy422 said:

 How could defunding the police possibly make the public more safe ? Who is more likely to be impacted by that kind of reform? 

Well... there's always George Zimmerman and Travis and Greg McMichael...

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I will speculate that law enforcement will become regional - perhaps by neighborhood.  Each will have their own armed militia.  Areas of poverty and weak militias will be taken over by organized crime (drug cartels) that will become the enforcers with the absents of police and militia.  Or things could get worse and we will see our country descend into violence with brother against brother and fathers against sons.  And with equality of the sexes - who knows what else.

Gee... that sounds like separating into tribes... You think we're there already?

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4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Gee... that sounds like separating into tribes... You think we're there already?

Fathers against sons and brothers against brothers does not sound like tribes.  Never-the-less, I do not think we are there yet. - the operative word being yet.  I cannot comprehend that Amazon would stay in Seattle if the police department was defunded in the downtown area.  Or any other international brand for that matter.  I also have not idea where Mitt Romney stand in all this - which is sad because he is suppose to represent me.

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Fathers against sons and brothers against brothers does not sound like tribes.  Never-the-less, I do not think we are there yet. - the operative word being yet.  I cannot comprehend that Amazon would stay in Seattle if the police department was defunded in the downtown area.  Or any other international brand for that matter.  I also have not idea where Mitt Romney stand in all this - which is sad because he is suppose to represent me.

 

The Traveler

From the News I've watched it looks like he (Romney) is standing with the protesters???  Not sure if it is the peaceful ones or the rioting and looting ones though.

Edited by JohnsonJones
clarity

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47 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

From the News I've watched it looks like he (Romney) is standing with the protesters???  Not sure if it is the peaceful ones or the rioting and looting ones though.

I believe he made a point to join with a church group, rather than a BLM- or Antifa-organized event.

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16 hours ago, Traveler said:

Fathers against sons and brothers against brothers does not sound like tribes.  Never-the-less, I do not think we are there yet. - the operative word being yet.  I cannot comprehend that Amazon would stay in Seattle if the police department was defunded in the downtown area.  Or any other international brand for that matter.  I also have not idea where Mitt Romney stand in all this - which is sad because he is suppose to represent me.

 

The Traveler

I was referring to the first part of the post:

23 hours ago, Traveler said:

I will speculate that law enforcement will become regional - perhaps by neighborhoodEach will have their own armed militia.  Areas of poverty and weak militias will be taken over by organized crime (drug cartels) that will become the enforcers with the absents of police and militia. 

You only mentioned the rest as an even worse case scenario.

23 hours ago, Traveler said:

Or things could get worse and we will see our country descend into violence with brother against brother and fathers against sons. 

But I'll address an interesting point you brought up.

23 hours ago, Traveler said:

And with equality of the sexes - who knows what else.

I think most of us do.  Even today, women don't go into dangerous (high potential for death or dismemberment) jobs at nearly the same rate as men do.  Even with offers of EOE, they simply don't apply at the same rate.

Sure feminists talk a good talk about equality.  But even they don't want to talk about this phenomenon because they know that physically speaking, we simply aren't equal.  The smaller percentage of women who can take it certainly are welcome when they apply.  But the larger percentage of men who apply will get hired if they are qualified.

We know that without civil society, women will be treated much worse than they are in a civilize first world country.  So, if things break down as you say, they will be pushed back to the "safe spaces" and very few will be accepted on the front lines.

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14 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

From the News I've watched it looks like he (Romney) is standing with the protesters???  Not sure if it is the peaceful ones or the rioting and looting ones though.

Romney tweet:
The George Floyd murder is abhorrent. Peaceful protests underscore the urgency of addressing injustices. But violence drowns the message of the protestors and mocks the principles of justice.

13 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I believe he made a point to join with a church group, rather than a BLM- or Antifa-organized event.

He joined a BLM organized event in Washington.  He walked with a church group in that BLM organized event, not organized their own protest as a church group.

Why this distinction matters:
This is on the What We Believe page of the BLM movement:

We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered(Romney is supposed to believe in Priesthood Authority)

We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice workWe disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.  (Romney is supposed to believe in the role of women in the Proclamation to the Family)

Edited by anatess2

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9 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Romney tweet:
The George Floyd murder is abhorrent. Peaceful protests underscore the urgency of addressing injustices. But violence drowns the message of the protestors and mocks the principles of justice.

He joined a BLM organized event in Washington.  He walked with a church group in that BLM organized event, not organized their own protest as a church group.

Why this distinction matters:
This is on the What We Believe page of the BLM movement:

We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered(Romney is supposed to believe in Priesthood Authority)

We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice workWe disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.  (Romney is supposed to believe in the role of women in the Proclamation to the Family)

Fair point.  It’s always a sad thing to see a Latter-day Saint sell out their theological principles for the sake of gaining what they perceive to be a powerful political ally or to make progress on the social issues they deem to be most pressing . . .

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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26 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Fair point.  It’s always a sad thing to see a Latter-day Saint sell out their theological principles for the sake of gaining what they perceive to be a powerful political ally or to make progress on the social issues they deem to be most pressing . . .

What can I say, hypocrites gonna hypocrite.

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Something of an alarm has risen up, though I did a search on Google to actually find an article (as quoting something you see on TV news is not as easy to validate on a Message Board).

It appears that BLM may be a money laundering scheme for...someone (some have hypothesized certain liberal groups, one of the groups that supposedly would gain money from the laundering donated over 100 million to both Bernie Saunders and Joe Biden's campaigns...interestingly enough).  Transparency would be a good thing to quell this.

I've posted stories both saying it is, and denying that issue (though, the story that denies that this is happening provides no transparency, no proof that it is not occurring, nor actually providing anything to counter the accusation other than basically saying it is false without any evidence to back that statement). So, in interest of political balance, I've tried posting two stories that argue against each other, or counter each others' dialogue in order to try to be somewhat even on the issue.

BLM is a money laundering scheme

debunked conspiracy theory about BLM and actblue and democrats

Edited by JohnsonJones

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