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I don’t think Pence would need to resign; Trump would just need to drop him from the ticket before the GOP convention and pick someone else.  I don’t think there would be much either Pence or the party could do to stop it.

That said, I don’t think this administration’s woes are really traceable to Pence; and it would be kind of a tough job for Trump to find a nationally prominent, reliably conservative woman of color willing to join his ticket.  Niki Haley would be dismissed as “too white”.  Maybe Condi Rice, but I think the die-hard Trumpers would see her as being too close to the Bush wing (even if she were willing to take the job).  

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27 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I suppose Candace Owens (Farmer) is a bit too young . . . :sparklygrin:

As years go by I get a little more suspicious of these young conservative wunderkinds.  Some of them turn out well; others . . . haven’t yet found their moral compass and are susceptible to breathtaking changes of heart.

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Guest Godless
1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Maybe Condi Rice, but I think the die-hard Trumpers would see her as being too close to the Bush wing (even if she were willing to take the job).  

At this point, Trump needs to worry more about the Bush wing of the GOP than his base. The Charlie Kirks and Tucker Carlsons of the party might wet their pants over the National Guard gassing and clubbing reporters in front of the White House, but I think there are many in the GOP who are having a "Come to Jesus" moment tonight, or will before the week is over.

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3 minutes ago, Godless said:

At this point, Trump needs to worry more about the Bush wing of the GOP than his base. The Charlie Kirks and Tucker Carlsons of the party might wet their pants over the National Guard gassing and clubbing reporters in front of the White House, but I think there are many in the GOP who are having a "Come to Jesus" moment tonight, or will before the week is over.

I haven’t been paying as close of attention as I probably ought, but . . .

What is happening tonight that I should blame Trump for?

I mean, you know well that I pretty much loathe the guy (wasn’t really impressed at his photo op at the church today, either).  But generally speaking I’m all for harshness with rioters and looters, and I’m not prepared to shed many years for biased reporters who were warned to stay out of a riot zone but went anyways.

What am I missing here?  What’s going on right now that is supposed to make me, as an ideological conservative, make an alliance with the folks who have started a hot race war in this country and who will be coming for my own head as soon as they’re done with Trump?

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From what I can tell, "Trump gets re-elected" is the default plan to keep a liberal out of the whitehouse.   

The only real suggestion I've seen to get Trump out, is for the American voter to have Biden's Veep be someone they'd prefer over Trump.    Since Biden's Veep will be the one running things, that might work.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Guest Godless
8 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I haven’t been paying as close of attention as I probably ought, but . . .

What is happening tonight that I should blame Trump for?

I mean, you know well that I pretty much loathe the guy (wasn’t really impressed at his photo op at the church today, either).  But generally speaking I’m all for harshness with rioters and looters, and I’m not prepared to shed many years for biased reporters who were warned to stay out of a riot zone but went anyways.

What am I missing here?  What’s going on right now that is supposed to make me, as an ideological conservative, make an alliance with the folks who have started a hot race war in this country and who will be coming for my own head as soon as they’re done with Trump?

He had Lafayette Square forcefully cleared so he could do a photo shoot in front of St. John's church. In the interest of fairness, I tried to find as many clips and angles that I could. At no point did it appear that the crowd was getting violent. Police attacked peaceful protestors soley so Trump could cross the street, hold up a Bible, and show people that he wasn't hiding in his bunker. This was immediately after he called himself the "Law and Order President" and talked about the possibility of using US troops nationwide to enforce curfews and keep the peace. I guess this is his way of making himself a wartime president, declaring war on his own citizens. 

As for the rest:

There are many videos like this, mostly from DC and Minneapolis. Unfortunately, many of them contain profanity, so I can't post them. I saw a couple where it appeared a reporter was probably out of line, but most of them are simply members of the press trying to document what's going on without trying to cause trouble. A lot of "We're members of the press" met with "I don't ... care". Say what you want about the state of media today. This type of aggression against what's supposed to be a free press is incredibly unsettling.

I'm finishing my whiskey and going to bed. I apologize if I seem less than level-headed right now. Seeing police used like a military force and the military used as a police force against US citizens has angered me in ways I didn't think possible. I keep thinking about what I would do if I were still in and was called up to go to Minneapolis to treat Americans as enemies. I don't have an answer.

 

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I don't think it would work that well.  Only possible candidate I'd see in this plan that MIGHT have a shred of success (and I don't think Trump would ever go for this type of plan in the first place) would be Condi Rice.  She has the name recognition that others might recognize...but she isn't the type that I think Trump actually cares for.

It doesn't make sense for someone to do something like that anyways.  If they think someone has a better chance to win than Trump does, run someone else as their party candidate. 

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7 hours ago, Godless said:

He had Lafayette Square forcefully cleared so he could do a photo shoot in front of St. John's church.

Who is actually surprised by this?  2 Corinthians walked into a bar...

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At no point did it appear that the crowd was getting violent. Police attacked peaceful protestors

You're right.  But there is more to it than that.

They did not seem to be violent, but neither is blocking the exit to a movie theater when a fire has broken out.  There were people in places they weren't supposed to be.  And they blocked regular traffic and free passage of other people (including the President).   I can't tell from the videos if there was a line that was crossed (both figuratively and literally).

Whenever there is a Presidential motorcade or an appearance by the President, a perimeter is set up.  If the protesters violated that perimeter, they are to be removed.  Peaceably if possible.  But forcibly if necessary.  This has been the practice for I don't know how long.  But I believe Lyndon Johnson enforced it.

And given the violent nature of the country at present it was a reasonable assumption that anyone who went into that perimeter (if you'll look closely, you can see fencelines and so forth) was up to no good.  They had stormed the White House for Pete's sake.  They broke down barricades and graffiti'd police cars and white house property.  One mad pled guilty to a plan to blow up the white house.

Maybe they were peaceful at that moment.  But for the past several days, they showed they were willing to use violent methods to express their anger.  In the midst of that environment, was it wise to give the protesters who were still there, the benefit of the doubt?

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soley so Trump could cross the street, hold up a Bible, and show people that he wasn't hiding in his bunker.

I've already agreed about the stupidity of his attempt to present himself as a religious man.  I think on some level he does consider himself a religious man.  But it's about as ridiculous as a "once saved, always saved" Christian believing he's fine living a life of debauchery and self-defeating (even violent, hateful) behaviors, because after all, he "pled the blood of Christ."  Yes, this aspect of Trump really makes me want to turn my back on him.

As for "showing he wasn't hiding", I don't know much about that.  Did he say that?  Was that his intent?  I thought it was just another politician doing a politician's thing.  It is an election year after all.  And it's not like other politicians aren't doing the same thing.  Yes, it's stupid.  Yes, I rolled my eyes when I first read it.  But seriously, what do you expect?

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This was immediately after he called himself the "Law and Order President" and talked about the possibility of using US troops nationwide to enforce curfews and keep the peace.

You have to at least admit that this was mostly the same crowd that had just broken down barricades and vandalized the white house.  Nationwide, we have people trowing explosives at businesses and government buildings.  I know that we're all sympathetic to the anger and indignation they feel.  But is that justified?  One person was murdered, so we go on a murder and rampaging spree? 

It turns out that most of the people doing the violent things aren't thinking about Floyd anwyay.  They were just common looters, thieves, and vandals.  They're just common criminals.  There are plenty of the sincere ones who point that out by explaining that they, themselves, are not with those violent guys.

The troops can be justified.  There is precedent for it.  But due to some legislation (I believe last century) there is a limit on what the US military can do to US citizens.  For instance, I don't think they can actually shoot a citizen in this type of circumstance unless they would be justified in doing so as a private citizen (like self-defense).

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I guess this is his way of making himself a wartime president, declaring war on his own citizens. 

I realize you don't like the guy.  But I think this is a bit harsh considering the level of violence all over the country -- and he hasn't even sent out a single soldier.

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I saw a couple where it appeared a reporter was probably out of line, but most of them are simply members of the press trying to document what's going on without trying to cause trouble. A lot of "We're members of the press" met with "I don't ... care". Say what you want about the state of media today. This type of aggression against what's supposed to be a free press is incredibly unsettling.

I'll have to admit some bias and schadenfreude.  I don't think there are a whole lot of people in the country who are all that sympathetic to the media.  Yes, it could be considered excessive.  And, yes, it could possibly be a civil rights issue (although that can be debated considering perimeter and all).  But I just can't bring myself to shed a tear over the media getting forced back to the perimeter.

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I'm finishing my whiskey and going to bed. I apologize if I seem less than level-headed right now.

It is times like this where I wonder if I would benefit from violating the WoW myself.

Edited by Carborendum
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I’m sort of in the same boat as @Carborendum.  
 

Trump leaving the White House and going out and about the city, at a time such as this, was just dumb.  Dumb, dumb, dumb.  If I’d been planning to vote for him in November, I’d be reconsidering my plan—it’s *that big* of an error in judgment, IMHO.

I also want to know what kind of instructions were circulated amongst the Lafayette Square protestors by LE, and for how long, before they resorted to physical force.

And because of the racially charged circumstances in which we find ourselves—I want to know what percentage of these cops, and the DC police force generally, are black; and how they in particular are responding to the orders they’re being given. 

All that being said:  Once the President has decided to go out and about—as a citizen, you cooperate with the resultant security precautions.  Period. 

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Guest Godless
12 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’m sort of in the same boat as @Carborendum.  
 

Trump leaving the White House and going out and about the city, at a time such as this, was just dumb.  Dumb, dumb, dumb.  If I’d been planning to vote for him in November, I’d be reconsidering my plan—it’s *that big* of an error in judgment, IMHO.

I also want to know what kind of instructions were circulated amongst the Lafayette Square protestors by LE, and for how long, before they resorted to physical force.

So dumb. I can't begin to imagine what was going through his head. 

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And because of the racially charged circumstances in which we find ourselves—I want to know what percentage of these cops, and the DC police force generally, are black; and how they in particular are responding to the orders they’re being given. 

I'm curious about this as well. It will also be interesting to see how military forces respond, if their role in this expands. And the way things have been, I think it will.

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All that being said:  Once the President has decided to go out and about—as a citizen, you cooperate with the resultant security precautions.  Period. 

I mean, you're not wrong, but I'm not going to fault several hundred protestors for suddenly being caught up in security protocols. 

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24 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If I’d been planning to vote for him in November, I’d be reconsidering my plan—it’s *that big* of an error in judgment, IMHO.

I didn't vote for Trump last time, because I thought he was lying and would actually end up being a leftist, so I went third party.  That said, I'm definitely voting for him this time; I feel he has proven enough that he truly cares about our country and wants it to remain the greatest country in the world, and is implementing good policies.  Were you planning to vote third party this November?  Just curious.

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1 hour ago, person0 said:

I didn't vote for Trump last time, because I thought he was lying and would actually end up being a leftist, so I went third party.  That said, I'm definitely voting for him this time; I feel he has proven enough that he truly cares about our country and wants it to remain the greatest country in the world, and is implementing good policies.  Were you planning to vote third party this November?  Just curious.

I won’t make myself even more tedious by rehashing all my issues with Trump in this thread. ;)

Suffice it to say, I’m probably going to write in Russell Nelson.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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10 hours ago, Godless said:

, but I think there are many in the GOP who are having a "Come to Jesus" moment tonight, or will before the week is over.

Probably not. We're too busy being infuriated at how quickly the Democrats re-discovered the 1st Amendment, after telling us we were killing the world by demanding to go to church--by-drive-through, without being ticketed $500 by the state patrol. Now these same folks are calling anyone who mentions COVID-19 'tone deaf.' It's just that when Bush conservatives get mad, instead of throwing petrol bombs we cast ballots.

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2 hours ago, Godless said:

I mean, you're not wrong, but I'm not going to fault several hundred protestors for suddenly being caught up in security protocols.

No. But when they are instructed by law enforcement officials to clear the area and they decide their protesting is more important, then my sympathy evaporates.

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11 hours ago, Godless said:

 I think there are many in the GOP who are having a "Come to Jesus" moment tonight, or will before the week is over.

I agree with PC. Even if you throw in all the conservative political issues, the most important issue to conservative Christians that trumps (forgive the intended double meaning) all other issues is religious freedom.  So, consider these points:

  • Democrats, for all their rhetoric about freedom and their individual claims of faith and Biblical reverence, they will always chomp at the bit to support legislation, regulation, and judicial rulings that curtail religious freedom for conservative Christians.
  • Trump, the adulterous, womanizing, cussing, bullying, immoral, depraved, a-religious President has done his best to support religious freedom for the conservative Christian.

What do you expect us to do?

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4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

And given the violent nature of the country at present it was a reasonable assumption that anyone who went into that perimeter (if you'll look closely, you can see fencelines and so forth) was up to no good.  They had stormed the White House for Pete's sake.  They broke down barricades and graffiti'd police cars and white house property.  One mad pled guilty to a plan to blow up the white house.

Did we forget that the reason Trump walked to that Church is because protesters set it on fire?

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Did we forget that the reason Trump walked to that Church is because protesters set it on fire?

Honestly, I was doing searches for what he actually said.  But I couldn't find anything.  I could only find the criticisms of him going to a church to hold up a Bible.  I heard the bishops of that church condemn him for saying things that were "antithetical to Biblical teachings."  But I couldn't find what the freak he said.

There's unbiased media for you.

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Guest MormonGator
4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

heard the bishops of that church condemn him for saying things that were "antithetical to Biblical teachings." 

I think he (Trump) went to an Episcopal church (?). They have girl priests, gay priests, you name it. It's not really a church for those looking for traditional, conservative biblical teachings. I'm not surprised they wouldn't be his biggest fan. 

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17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Honestly, I was doing searches for what he actually said.  But I couldn't find anything.  I could only find the criticisms of him going to a church to hold up a Bible.  I heard the bishops of that church condemn him for saying things that were "antithetical to Biblical teachings."  But I couldn't find what the freak he said.

There's unbiased media for you.

"We're a great country".  He repeated his familiar refrain that this country will be greater than ever before.  This is a bad footage but at least you can hear what he says.

 

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37 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I think he (Trump) went to an Episcopal church (?). They have girl priests, gay priests, you name it. It's not really a church for those looking for traditional, conservative biblical teachings. I'm not surprised they wouldn't be his biggest fan. 

Yeah, they’re also kind of the closest thing we have to a national church.  That particular church building had a lot of history, but its moral and cultural power has largely been hollowed out at this point  (as their response to Trump’s visit and their general prostrating themselves before people who fundamentally hate this country’s founding ideals, reiterates).  Their leaders are more like semi-literate curators of historical oddities, than priests.  :( 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Guest MormonGator
3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Yeah, they’re also kind of the closest thing we have to a national church.

Oh I totally agree with you, 100%. 

 

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 Their leaders are more like semi-literate curators of historical oddities, than priests.

Yup. They are bleeding members faster than any other church out there. The Bee had a great joke. What do you wear to an Episcopal church service? Whatever you want, no one will be there anyway. 

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