My doubting daughter


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I have a 20 year old daughter who has not had a spiritual confirmation of the truth of the gospel. She is not an enemy of the church, but she is struggling to gain a testimony. What can I do as her dad to help her have an experience that can help her? She is basically ambivalent toward the entire thing. I asked her why she does not join us for for the sacrament and she said, "I don't see the point, it is kind of silly." Also, she has no interest in the scriptures. In young women's she was kind of sidelined by a bunch of girls who are from the so called popular families, you know the type that had private parties that were gospel centered, but they did not invite the rest of the ward. She has felt left out of the social activities of the girls her age. I am at a loss, I have a firm testimony, but she just rolls her eyes when I share spiritual experiences that I have had. I just don't know what to do?

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The process of conversion is a very personal one that takes place between an individual and the Lord. He knows exactly what she needs to gain a testimony and when the timing is right and you have to have some faith in that. This doesn't mean that you sit back and do nothing. You still need to love her, pray for her, and try to help her have spiritual experiences (which it sounds like you are doing) but trust that the Lord is also working with her. Recognizing that sometimes you can only do so much might be one of the hardest parts of being a parent but realizing you are in partnership with God in raising yours and His child will help provide peace.

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A Testimony is gained by ACTION.  You put faith in something and act on it.  A parent's job is to raise and teach the children in faith and encourage them to act on it.  If you've been doing this for 20 years and her own testimony has not sprouted wings, then there's really nothing much you can do about it.  She's got her own free agency.

 

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43 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I have a 20 year old daughter who has not had a spiritual confirmation of the truth of the gospel. She is not an enemy of the church, but she is struggling to gain a testimony. What can I do as her dad to help her have an experience that can help her? She is basically ambivalent toward the entire thing. I asked her why she does not join us for for the sacrament and she said, "I don't see the point, it is kind of silly." Also, she has no interest in the scriptures. In young women's she was kind of sidelined by a bunch of girls who are from the so called popular families, you know the type that had private parties that were gospel centered, but they did not invite the rest of the ward. She has felt left out of the social activities of the girls her age. I am at a loss, I have a firm testimony, but she just rolls her eyes when I share spiritual experiences that I have had. I just don't know what to do?

I don’t have any sage advice; but I feel for ya and wish you the best. 

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Here's what you can do: 

- Share those previous moments / insights you have as they come up

- Pray for her

- Acknowledge her agency here.  

- Have patience.

She's got to be the one to have that interest  & step through the door to want a testimony.   If she's had issues with peers and if she's like many early 20's, she'll probably keep any real feelings here EXTREMELY close to the chest -- it feels easier and safer to outwardly roll eyes.  But she's been taught, and what happens next is between her and God.  

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53 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I have a 20 year old daughter who has not had a spiritual confirmation of the truth of the gospel. She is not an enemy of the church, but she is struggling to gain a testimony. What can I do as her dad to help her have an experience that can help her? She is basically ambivalent toward the entire thing. I asked her why she does not join us for for the sacrament and she said, "I don't see the point, it is kind of silly." Also, she has no interest in the scriptures. In young women's she was kind of sidelined by a bunch of girls who are from the so called popular families, you know the type that had private parties that were gospel centered, but they did not invite the rest of the ward. She has felt left out of the social activities of the girls her age. I am at a loss, I have a firm testimony, but she just rolls her eyes when I share spiritual experiences that I have had. I just don't know what to do?

I'm a very technical guy.  I figured my children would also have similar traits.  Most of them do (as far as natural talent and ability).  But they simply didn't have any interest in it.

I had tried talking to my kids about math and science. I told them of all the advantages and what you could do with it.  I talked of great experiences I had.I talked of career choices... blah blah blah.

The thing that finally worked was when I had them go through the process with me, and they saw the joy I got out of it.  They felt the same joy through me.  Now they are all excited about becoming engineers as well.  Not all of them responded this way.  Those that did not have a natural affinity for it found no joy in it no matter what I did.

For those, we go the Alma route.  We do all we can, and we fast & pray like crazy.

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That's a tough position. You are far from alone in this.

I think the short answer is that you can't provide her a spiritual experience. That is, maybe you can provide it, but that doesn't mean she'll recognize it as such. Lead a horse to water and all that.

My opinion is that the thing for you to do is to keep living your life as a disciple of Christ. You love your daughter and support her as you can, but you hold firm to your principles. Keep talking to her about your experiences with the divine. If she rolls her eyes, let them roll. When Alma the younger came to his crisis point, he remembered all those words of his father about Jesus that he had doubtless rolled his eyes at the first time.

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I was your daughter from around age 16 through age 24.  I went through the motions, until I went inactive.  It seemed silly to continue to pretend I believed something I didn't.  Somewhere around age 22-23, I started wanting to figure out what I believed.  I came within a few credit hours of getting a minor in philosophy, but I didn't find any answers there, just got a tad better at framing the questions.  I desired to know the truth, and eventually studied and prayed my way into a genuine testimony.  It took about three years of wanting, and a year of searching. 

The people who helped, were the people who loved me.  My LDS cousin and buddies who included me and didn't judge me or ask anything of me.  A Sunday School teacher who spoke plainly to me with acceptance and love about reasons I might not have to go on a mission.  And the little old Swedish lady who I used to deliver fast offerings to, who always drug me in and gave me chocolate.  The people who didn't help were my mom and grandma who kvetched and wrung their hands and worried aloud about the state of my soul.  The person who didn't help the most, was some poor elder kid my age who called me up and wanted to be my friend.  It was obvious he had received the assignment to do so, and although he was trying his hardest, his effort came across as fake, and made it all to easy for me to feel good about going totally inactive.

So yeah, love your daughter with true, transparent, genuine love.  That, and letting your light so shine around her, are the best things you can do for her.

I was able to invite the little old Swedish lady to my sealing - the look on her face was one of the five best things that happened to me that day.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Just speaking from experience, I am a person that was not sensitive to the spirit and was always annoyed at the traditional tactics used to teach us to recognize the spirit. Ie “how does that make you feel?” or tried to pry out some imaginary feeling that I wasn’t experiencing following a prayer or Reading of a scripture. I never felt anything noticeably different.
 

To this day I still get a very irritated at those types of questions, not sure why,  just always felt it was a bit of a “trap” question I guess. One with a correct answer and you would feel bad if you said “I feel nothing” cause it either shows you are not righteous, or you don’t want to put the teacher/leader in a position where he/she has to explain why the scripture/testimony didn’t produce a feeling as he expected it to. 

I know that this is a common question parents and leaders ask, not sure if it does more good than bad, but I feel like there are better ways to help people recognize the spirit.

what really helped me was living the gospel and being around leaders that challenged my understanding of scripture, and leaders / that I could say “Joseph Smith did X and that does make any sense to me, it honestly seems like this is all hullabaloo”. My parents taught me a lot and were very loving, but they couldn’t provide me the gospel discussion I craved, their responses ranged from “we just don’t know and may never know” to using the “I’m talking to my baby” tone of voice. 

Not sure if that helped, but your question just sparked my emotions on the topic.

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11 minutes ago, Fether said:

Just speaking from experience, I am a person that was not sensitive to the spirit and was always annoyed at the traditional tactics used to teach us to recognize the spirit. Ie “how does that make you feel?” or tried to pry out some imaginary feeling that I wasn’t experiencing following a prayer or Reading of a scripture. I never felt anything noticeably different.
 

To this day I still get a very irritated at those types of questions, not sure why,  just always felt it was a bit of a “trap” question I guess. One with a correct answer and you would feel bad if you said “I feel nothing” cause it either shows you are not righteous, or you don’t want to put the teacher/leader in a position where he/she has to explain why the scripture/testimony didn’t produce a feeling as he expected it to. 

I know that this is a common question parents and leaders ask, not sure if it does more good than bad, but I feel like there are better ways to help people recognize the spirit.

what really helped me was living the gospel and being around leaders that challenged my understanding of scripture, and leaders / that I could say “Joseph Smith did X and that does make any sense to me, it honestly seems like this is all hullabaloo”. My parents taught me a lot and were very loving, but they couldn’t provide me the gospel discussion I craved, their responses ranged from “we just don’t know and may never know” to using the “I’m talking to my baby” tone of voice. 

Not sure if that helped, but your question just sparked my emotions on the topic.

I get that.

As I'm teaching my daughter, I've been realizing a lot of the same things about me: I feel the Spirit but it's not... an emotion?  I'm struggling with the word here.  I feel it -- because it makes sense, it "clicks" super foundationally for me, yes I very much agree with these doctrines & have a firm testimony.  It's just not.... not really an super emotional thing (again, for want of a much better word).

God speaks to us each individually, and we each learn/understand the same things differently.  My way doesn't quite work for my daughter right now.

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31 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I get that.

As I'm teaching my daughter, I've been realizing a lot of the same things about me: I feel the Spirit but it's not... an emotion?  I'm struggling with the word here.  I feel it -- because it makes sense, it "clicks" super foundationally for me, yes I very much agree with these doctrines & have a firm testimony.  It's just not.... not really an super emotional thing (again, for want of a much better word).

God speaks to us each individually, and we each learn/understand the same things differently.  My way doesn't quite work for my daughter right now.

I think the nest approach is to tell them “this is something you need to figure out on your own” and the. Go over different ways people have felt the spirit and periodically ask them how their journey is going. Here I feel like you can be a little proactive in asking. Be inquisitive but carry with it no expectations.
 

I think the biggest issue is telling them that the spirit feels a certain way and then asking them if they feel that emotion over and over.

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One additional thing I might add is that it can be helpful to help her see how exactly it matters in her life specifically. Sometimes young people lack that beginning element of "desiring to believe" because they just don't understand it's relevance. But if they learn how the gospel can make a difference in school, work, social life, getting direction for important decisions, etc, they may not act immediately on it but when situations arise the Spirit can help remind her and hopefully she will respond.

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David O'Mckay supposedly had a daughter that fell away from the Church.  It was something that made him very sad.  He could not understand what he had done wrong.  Here he was, an apostle of the Lord (later the Prophet) and he could not convince his own children to remain with the church. 

What had he done wrong?

It obviously bothered him to a degree.  Eventually he got an answer.  It was not what he had done wrong, but who he was.  He was granted the opportunity to have this wonderful child of our Father in Heaven because she was going to have a difficult time here on earth.  She knew it in the pre-existence and thus David O'Mckay had been chosen to be her Father.  It was not that he would or would not succeed in giving her a testimony, but that he was the best chance she had at helping her obtain that testimony in the Lord and come to him. 

He did not have all the answers on how to give her that testimony of her own, even as an apostle of the Lord at the time.  If he did not, I think some allowance upon the rest of us can also be granted.

I think in these instances to Love them and to be open and frank with them may be the best options.  Unconditional love for your children is something that, even if they doubt many other things, they can know that at least that is sincere.  It may not convince them to turn to the Lord, and they may actually eventually turn completely away, but to express that Christlike love for them can be something that sticks with them, even after they have given up on everything else.

Be Honest with them, or as honest as you can be.  When they ask your opinion, give it to them honestly.  You can express that you have differences of opinions, and you may not convince each other, but be honest in what you think and express your love for them.  Many can tell false sincerity and prefer honest and open conversation over what they may feel is a rote answers or semantics at play.

I don't have all the answers and I think that there are some in my family that are questioning or have difficulties currently.  I hope and pray for them, but I cannot instill in them a testimony.  I can express how much I love them, and give them my honest thoughts on things they ask me (without condemning them, but instead showing respect and love for them).  I don't know where the future will take them or what will happen.  I know that better people than I have had problems with their children and even had children that fell away from the church.  I hope that does not happen with any of my children or grand children, but if it does, all I know is that I can continue to express my love for them and pray for them to someday feel the spirit strongly enough, recognize that it is the Spirit of the Lord, and return.  However, that is between them and the Lord, as a parent or grand parent all I can do is to love them and show them that love.

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

David O'Mckay supposedly had a daughter that fell away from the Church.  It was something that made him very sad.  He could not understand what he had done wrong.  Here he was, an apostle of the Lord (later the Prophet) and he could not convince his own children to remain with the church. 

Where did you find that story? I want to read more about it.

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My advice for myself and people dealing with this particular problem: keep consciously viewing her and treating her as an eternal being, a spirit daughter of God, and you will have ideas and feelings come to you that will benefit her. Find ways to relate to her where she is, and act so that she shares her interests with you.

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2 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Where did you find that story? I want to read more about it.

I'd like to find an online source for you.  I had heard the story many decades ago, but I do not have a written source other than my own memory.  I'm sorry.

What I normally do find is another story from his family regarding his niece who also was one of his close family.  She was the daughter of his brother (Thomas) who was an assistant to the twelve.  She had a great influence on their extended family, and was also difficult thing for him and his brother to deal with.  When they spoke of their homes being ideal, or their statements of failure in the family, she was one example that many brought up at times.  It could be that she was also one of the things that was given towards David O'Mckay in regards to his prayers of his own failings and struggles.

I won't go much into her story, but I believe she is also a parallel to the family story of David O'McKay.  Her situation is not uplifting overall, but is also an example of someone with two general authorities in her life who left the church.  Even with two General Authorities to bear testimony and give examples, she still became one of the most famous anti-Mormons in Church history and one of the most famous exmormons to have existed.

She has had a LARGE impact on the historical revisionist community in the past three decades, but her story is not particularly uplifting and so I will not get into it here.  However, she can also be seen as an example that if the leaders of the church have problems with their children, and yet are servants of the Lord, we can know we are not the only ones that struggle in this.

I'll list her name, but I wouldn't do a great deal of research into her life story as it is not very uplifting.  Her name is Fawn McKay Brodie (normally known as Fawn Brodie) and she was created a great spiritual struggle for her own family in their journey to try to understand where they went wrong, why they went wrong, and/or IF they went wrong.  A great deal of this can be found in Biographies of David O'Mckay, but again, I'm not sure there is much that is uplifting that can be found on the subject online.

As I said, the biggest thing I think we can do is to continue to love our children with an unconditional love.  These problems arise and can be difficult for even the ones we hold up on pedestals, and if it is difficult for them, it no doubt is not easier for us.

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That must be tough.  My oldest is 12, so I haven't personally experienced a struggle like that.  But I had my own wayward times. And I have two brothers that have left the church, most likely for good.  I know it's taken an emotional toll on my parents.  I hope the best for you and your daughter.  There was an article in the Ensign a few years ago that might help.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2016/02/when-a-child-leaves-the-church?lang=eng

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1 hour ago, dprh said:

My oldest is 12, so I haven't personally experienced a struggle like that

You know your son more than I do, but I thought I was suggest that 12 year old are capable of complex thought just like us adults, they are just less likely to voice it when it comes up.

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

You know your son more than I do, but I thought I was suggest that 12 year old are capable of complex thought just like us adults, they are just less likely to voice it when it comes up.

8 year olds are capable of complex thought.  The thing is though, these kids are still in their formative years and complex thoughts are still less tested and less disciplined.  Line upon line, precept upon precept is the way to get these complex thoughts organized into meaningful testimonies.

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4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

8 year olds are capable of complex thought.  The thing is though, these kids are still in their formative years and complex thoughts are still less tested and less disciplined.  Line upon line, precept upon precept is the way to get these complex thoughts organized into meaningful testimonies.

I agree, what I’m suggesting is that just because a person is 12 years old doesn’t mean serious doubts will arrive. I have a sibling that decided am they were trans gender at the age of 14, I am sure a 12 year old can have serious complaints or disbelief in what has been taught about God.

Edited by Fether
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