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Plein Air
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12 minutes ago, Plein Air said:

More evidence that China is directly responsible for the deaths of many more people who might not have died, had China not whitheld vital information RE: C-19 from the world. 

Okay... you're going to be shocked at what I'm going to say... READY?

China is directly responsible for the lives of 1 billion Chinese.  It is not their job to worry about the rest of the world to the detriment of the 1 billion Chinese.  America's job is to worry about the 350 million Americans.  It is not their job to worry about the rest of the world to the detriment of 350 million Americans.  Same for every single country around the planet.

W.H.O.'s job is to bring all these self-interests into the table and manage it.  IF they can't stand up to the Chinese and their self-interests, then there's no purpose for having a WHO.  So no, China is not directly responsible for the deaths of many more people... W.H.O. IS.

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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Okay... you're going to be shocked at what I'm going to say... READY?

China is directly responsible for the lives of 1 billion Chinese.  It is not their job to worry about the rest of the world to the detriment of the 1 billion Chinese.  America's job is to worry about the 350 million Americans.  It is not their job to worry about the rest of the world to the detriment of 350 million Americans.  Same for every single country around the planet.

W.H.O.'s job is to bring all these self-interests into the table and manage it.  IF they can't stand up to the Chinese and their self-interests, then there's no purpose for having a WHO.  So no, China is not directly responsible for the deaths of many more people... W.H.O. IS.

If China, through duplicity and lies, causes the deaths of X people around the world, then China is responsible for those X deaths.

Perhaps China may attack the US in what they see as their country's interests. Hard to blame them, right? Except if they kill 10,000 Americans, they are going to be invaded and conquered. Period. The excuse "We're only responsible for our billion, not for your 350 million" won't fly.

Lying and prevaricating about the disease that came out of China and has killed many is effectively an attack on the rest of the planet. China should and must reap the just deserts of their actions. They absolutely must be held responsible. If they are not, we have only our corrupt elected officials to blame, and ultimately ourselves for putting them in office.

Edited by Vort
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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Okay... you're going to be shocked at what I'm going to say... READY?

China is directly responsible for the lives of 1 billion Chinese.  It is not their job to worry about the rest of the world to the detriment of the 1 billion Chinese.  America's job is to worry about the 350 million Americans.  It is not their job to worry about the rest of the world to the detriment of 350 million Americans.  Same for every single country around the planet.

W.H.O.'s job is to bring all these self-interests into the table and manage it.  IF they can't stand up to the Chinese and their self-interests, then there's no purpose for having a WHO.  So no, China is not directly responsible for the deaths of many more people... W.H.O. IS.

I don't think responsibility is binary, on or off.  Yes, WHO should be more assertive, but that doesn't relieve China of the responsibility of cooperation and following procedures and guidelines.  

Was Enron not responsible for their fraud because Arthur Anderson didn't audit them correctly?

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

If China, through duplicity and lies, causes the deaths of X people around the world, then China is responsible for those X deaths.

Perhaps China may attack the US in what they see as their country's interests. Hard to blame them, right? Except if they kill 10,000 Americans, they are going to be invaded and conquered. Period. The excuse "We're only responsible for our billion, not for your 350 million" won't fly.

Lying and prevaricating about the disease that came out of China and has killed many is effectively an attack on the rest of the planet. China should and must reap the just deserts of their actions. They absolutely must be held responsible. If they are not, we have only our corrupt elected officials to blame, and ultimately ourselves for putting them in office.

Are you sure you want to take this position after Bush's WMD fiasco?

This is the nature of countries.  Each country share or withholds intelligence to protect its citizens.  The last time we've had anybody kill people of other nations to expand their territories rather than to protect their citizens was 80 years ago.  China has to feed over a billion people.  They done goofed up and let loose a virus.  They are in the middle of a trade war.  They're not going to give the other side of that war more weapons to use in that war, virus or no virus.

Sure, China must reap just deserts for not containing the virus.  But to say they are responsible for American lives is not correct.  They have zero responsibility to protect anybody outside of their national interest.  If they decide to do so, its because they want to be nice to their neighbors and not because they have a responsibility for them.  This is the debate at the very crux of Nationalism vs Globalism.

Edited by anatess2
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58 minutes ago, dprh said:

I don't think responsibility is binary, on or off.  Yes, WHO should be more assertive, but that doesn't relieve China of the responsibility of cooperation and following procedures and guidelines.  

Was Enron not responsible for their fraud because Arthur Anderson didn't audit them correctly?

We're not just talking responsible.  We're talking DIRECTLY responsible.

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4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Sure, China must reap just deserts for not containing the virus.

This is not what I said. China must reap just deserts for causing harm and death through their lies and prevarications.

And BTW, Bush was right. There were indeed WMDs in Iraq, as even the NYT admitted years later (while still claiming that they were morally justified in calling Bush a liar).

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1 minute ago, Vort said:

This is not what I said. China must reap just deserts for causing harm and death through their lies and prevarications.

Same thing.  The issue is not whether China must reap just deserts.  The issue is whether China is DIRECTLY responsible.

 

1 minute ago, Vort said:

And BTW, Bush was right. There were indeed WMDs in Iraq, as even the NYT admitted years later (while still claiming that they were morally justified in calling Bush a liar).

You proved my point.

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

We're not talking responsible.  We're talking DIRECTLY responsible.

The organizations that police aren't responsible, the governments that are policed are still directly responsible . (That was what I was trying to point out with the Enron/Arthur Anderson comparison)

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Just now, dprh said:

The organizations that police aren't responsible, the governments that are policed are still directly responsible . (That was what I was trying to point out with the Enron/Arthur Anderson comparison)

WHO is not the police.  They are the ARBITERS OF INFORMATION.  They have the information.  They didn't share it with the rest of the members.

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4 minutes ago, Plein Air said:

Personally I feel China is morally responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, maybe millions because of their games. The idea of holding them legally responsible?  I am really not sure what I think on that or how much time I might want to spend thinking about it. I have stuff to do today. 🤑

You may have been doing other things rather than watching the covid ticker.  I don't blame you.  I think I'm gonna do better things than paying attention to the ticker.  Anyway, we haven't reached half a million deaths yet.

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7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

WHO is not the police.  They are the ARBITERS OF INFORMATION.  They have the information.  They didn't share it with the rest of the members.

The quote below is snips from the SCMP article.  The WHO should have published their frustration with China, but it's China that wasn't providing the information.

Quote
Strict controls on information and competition within the Chinese public health system were largely to blame, according to internal documents, emails and dozens of interviews.Health officials only released the genome after a Chinese lab published it ahead of authorities on a virology website on January 11.
 
Even then, China stalled for at least two more weeks on giving WHO the details it needed, according to recordings of multiple internal meetings held by the UN health agency in January – all at a time when the outbreak arguably might have been dramatically slowed.
 
But rather than colluding with China, the WHO has been found to be largely kept in the dark, as China gave it only the minimal information required. But the agency did try to portray China in the best light, most likely to coax the country into providing more outbreak details
 
But when it came to sharing the genome with the world, things went awry. China’s top medical authority, the National Health Commission, issued a confidential notice forbidding labs from publishing about the virus without authorisation. The order barred Shi’s lab from publishing the sequence or warning of the possible danger.
 
The Chinese CDC raised its emergency level to the second highest, but did not have the authority to alert the public.
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6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

You may have been doing other things rather than watching the covid ticker.  I don't blame you.  I think I'm gonna do better things than paying attention to the ticker.  Anyway, we haven't reached half a million deaths yet.

Good catch. I meant to type "cases" not deaths.  Fixed it and added "thousands of deaths'.

I am guessing that before it is all over if it is ever truly "over"  we will exceed deaths over  1 million worldwide. 

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