Help from our leaders...


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16 hours ago, BobMaster said:

Yes, except I for one would love to hear the Voice of God like in Joseph Smith's day or as spoken in the scriptures . . .but considering no one else in the Church really desires for it to happen-it won't happen.

This is simply false. A great many Latter-day Saints would love to hear Joseph Smith-like revelation. If President Nelson were to announce such revelation, I suspect the majority of the Church would support him, and many (perhaps most) would be excited about it.

In another thread, I told you I would answer your question when you answered mine. You have done a thorough job of answering my question. Thank you. So now it's my turn. I've been waiting until I have time to give you a good, thorough answer, as you did to me. But that time may not come soon. So I'll try to look up that thread and respond.

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16 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is simply false. A great many Latter-day Saints would love to hear Joseph Smith-like revelation. If President Nelson were to announce such revelation, I suspect the majority of the Church would support him, and many (perhaps most) would be excited about it.

 

Right. I can't imagine an active, believing LDS who wouldn't want to hear that! 

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17 hours ago, BobMaster said:

Yes, except I for one would love to hear the Voice of God like in Joseph Smith's day or as spoken in the scriptures . . .but considering no one else in the Church really desires for it to happen-it won't happen.  Something about ask and ye shall receive-the body of the Church isn't asking God for it, so He's not going to give it.

If the Saints in Joseph's day really, truly wanted to hear the "Voice of God" Zion would have been established long ago. Likewise if hearing the "Voice of God" was superior to the simple promptings of the Spirit then the growth and establishment of the Church since then should have fared far worse than in Joseph's time. While there may be some instances where God holds back because the people aren't ready the scriptures and the history of our Church are replete with examples of just the opposite. In a BYU speech I listened to recently an apostle (I forget which) was quoted as saying "I don't worry about the Lord's church because it is the Lord's. I let Him worry about it." We would do well to do the same.

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1 hour ago, scottyg said:

Perhaps my comment is nitpicking, but the early leaders of the church had to be very bold in their speaking so that the people would know that the Lord's prophet was communicating directly with Him. No one had done this before in thousands of years...so it needed to be made very clear to them that a prophet was upon the earth once more.

Look, it's okay, I'm not angry or mad.  All I know is that many members are deluding themselves, just like the people who fought against Joseph Smith.  Joseph Smith claimed a vision, he wrote it down, people told him a variation on the theme above.  God spoke like that to leaders in the past, but today it's not really needed.

It's the same song and dance, just a different tune.  We don't need our leaders to boldly proclaim the actual Words of God because . . .they'd be made fun of, we'd be made fun of, we don't need it that way today, etc. etc. etc.  It's just a bunch of excuses and rationalizations for why things are the way they are today. When the bottom line is God's Word actually tells us why it is the way it is today-it's called a lack of faith.

I'm told both simultaneously that a) that's not how it's down today b) people don't lack faith for it to happen or c) it's done that way today just differently.

We sustain our leaders as Prophets, yet what do they prophesy? They make very vague claims-they are good words, but there is nothing that they can really hang their hat on and say, this is a yes or no prophecy.  Nothing like prophets in the BoM declaring that a particular city would be destroyed. We sustain them as Revelators, yet what do they actually Reveal? They give great sermons, but to the speak God's Voice to us? We sustain them as Seers, yet what do they see?

The amazing thing is that as a people we are so incredibly malnourished compared to the early days and starved for it that anyone who stands up and says, hey guys we are pretty starved as a people is immediately told to shut-up, you just need to accept being starved, you apostate, don't you know it's good for you to be starved, or even worse a bunch of gaslighting and saying , you only think you are starved but you really aren't.

It's okay, I absolutely sustain them in their abilities to do as they are called to do so, they just aren't doing so (at least not in any meaningful fashion). There will come a time when a good portion of the membership will wake up and recognize how starved they really are for real meat.

I've said my peace. I'll go back to lurking.

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22 minutes ago, laronius said:

If the Saints in Joseph's day really, truly wanted to hear the "Voice of God" Zion would have been established long ago. Likewise if hearing the "Voice of God" was superior to the simple promptings of the Spirit then the growth and establishment of the Church since then should have fared far worse than in Joseph's time. While there may be some instances where God holds back because the people aren't ready the scriptures and the history of our Church are replete with examples of just the opposite. In a BYU speech I listened to recently an apostle (I forget which) was quoted as saying "I don't worry about the Lord's church because it is the Lord's. I let Him worry about it." We would do well to do the same.

You are correct, Joseph Smith would never have been killed had the Saints truly wanted to hear God's Voice.

"fared far worse", it depends on what metric you are using.  In terms of "growth" maybe, in terms of a people who are ready to receive Christ-probably not.

I don't worry about the Church, in fact that's the point that I'm making.  Too many people are wrapped up in following the leaders rather than following Christ.  They think that by adoring, idolizing and waiting with baited breadth for every word that the leaders make will get them closer to Christ. When what they should be doing is ready their scriptures, studying God's Word, praying etc.

Typical conversation "Follow the leaders!!!", "well they aren't revealing God's word so . ..?", "doesn't matter follow the leaders!", "well if they aren't revealing God's word, then why should I follow lock-step"? "doesn't matter, God will take care of the Church"?. "I'm not talking about the Church, I'm talking about me, why should I treat their words as manna from Heaven when I have God's Word in scripture, why should I value their word above Scripture, when their word doesn't conform to God's Word and they haven't revealed any more of God's Word"? "Doesn't matter, follow the leaders"?, "okay, why?" "because they are the prophets!?", "okay, but if they don't give God's Word, then why should I value their words greater than scripture"? "doesn't matter, God leads the Church, they know best". etc. etc. etc.

It becomes circular argument where the actual proof of them acting in the capacity of Prophets, Seers, and Revelators is very, very slim.   In other words, just obtaining the title doesn't make you one, it gives you the right and ability, but doesn't make you one.

When I do a deep dive in studying scriptures and then compare that to the skim milk I get from General Conference-I find our current leaders wanting in their capacity.

And more to the point, there has been almost nothing which any modern leader has said in General Conference which has helped me resolve any doctrinal issues or concerns with the current items of the day.  Whether that be "racism", whether it be homosexuality, transgender,  polygamy, etc.  There has only been one thing which was said which helped but not in the way it was intended. Otherwise, not a single word they have said in the last 15 years on those subjects has done one iota bit of good.

But what has helped me out tremendously has been deep scripture study, understanding patterns, understanding God's Word.  At this point, it doesn't matter what they say on the subject-they could allow homosexuals in the Temple sealings, I wouldn't care. Because I know the truth as revealed in God's Word.  Now, if they will claim a Revelation and Reveal more of God's Word which claims to amend or add to Scripture, then I will have a decision to make; until then I feel very comfortable sustaining them but at the same time not really caring what they are saying-because in general they aren't acting in their capacity in which they are sustained.

Edited by BobMaster
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9 minutes ago, BobMaster said:

Look, it's okay, I'm not angry or mad.  All I know is that many members are deluding themselves, just like the people who fought against Joseph Smith.  Joseph Smith claimed a vision, he wrote it down, people told him a variation on the theme above.  God spoke like that to leaders in the past, but today it's not really needed.

It's the same song and dance, just a different tune.  We don't need our leaders to boldly proclaim the actual Words of God because . . .they'd be made fun of, we'd be made fun of, we don't need it that way today, etc. etc. etc.  It's just a bunch of excuses and rationalizations for why things are the way they are today. When the bottom line is God's Word actually tells us why it is the way it is today-it's called a lack of faith.

I'm told both simultaneously that a) that's not how it's down today b) people don't lack faith for it to happen or c) it's done that way today just differently.

We sustain our leaders as Prophets, yet what do they prophesy? They make very vague claims-they are good words, but there is nothing that they can really hang their hat on and say, this is a yes or no prophecy.  Nothing like prophets in the BoM declaring that a particular city would be destroyed. We sustain them as Revelators, yet what do they actually Reveal? They give great sermons, but to the speak God's Voice to us? We sustain them as Seers, yet what do they see?

The amazing thing is that as a people we are so incredibly malnourished compared to the early days and starved for it that anyone who stands up and says, hey guys we are pretty starved as a people is immediately told to shut-up, you just need to accept being starved, you apostate, don't you know it's good for you to be starved, or even worse a bunch of gaslighting and saying , you only think you are starved but you really aren't.

It's okay, I absolutely sustain them in their abilities to do as they are called to do so, they just aren't doing so (at least not in any meaningful fashion). There will come a time when a good portion of the membership will wake up and recognize how starved they really are for real meat.

I've said my peace. I'll go back to lurking.

Perspective.

You talk of yesteryears as if God spoke every week or every year or something.  It's easy to think this when you are reading 4,000 years of history in 4 hours.

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8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Perspective.

You talk of yesteryears as if God spoke every week or every year or something.  It's easy to think this when you are reading 4,000 years of history in 4 hours.

That's a great point! I fully recognize that He did not and I don't expect Him to do so today (speak every week, etc.). 

Personally, I would like to at least hear His Voice as dictated by a Prophet to an entire people once in my lifetime.  A once a generation thing would be nice-keep the fires of Faith burning for another generation.  As it is right now, it's been 102 years.

Edited by BobMaster
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4 minutes ago, BobMaster said:

That's a great point! I fully recognize that He did not and I don't expect Him to do so today. 

Thou shalt not pretend to know or not know when God will need to speak to His children.

- this is probably in the tablet of commandments that broke.  ;)

 

Edited by anatess2
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1 hour ago, Vort said:

This is simply false. A great many Latter-day Saints would love to hear Joseph Smith-like revelation. If President Nelson were to announce such revelation, I suspect the majority of the Church would support him, and many (perhaps most) would be excited about it.

In another thread, I told you I would answer your question when you answered mine. You have done a thorough job of answering my question. Thank you. So now it's my turn. I've been waiting until I have time to give you a good, thorough answer, as you did to me. But that time may not come soon. So I'll try to look up that thread and respond.

It it is false; then why do so many Saints fight when it is pointed out that we haven't had a vision in 102 years and the Manifestos are poor imitations.

Why is there so much push-back to state the obvious when it comes to the Manifestos?

I appreciate the conversation; I await your reply.

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8 minutes ago, BobMaster said:

You are correct, Joseph Smith would never have been killed had the Saints truly wanted to hear God's Voice.

"fared far worse", it depends on what metric you are using.  In terms of "growth" maybe, in terms of a people who are ready to receive Christ-probably not.

I don't worry about the Church, in fact that's the point that I'm making.  Too many people are wrapped up in following the leaders rather than following Christ.  They think that by adoring, idolizing and waiting with baited breadth for every word that the leaders make will get them closer to Christ. When what they should be doing is ready their scriptures, studying God's Word, praying etc.

Typical conversation "Follow the leaders!!!", "well they aren't revealing God's word so . ..?", "doesn't matter follow the leaders!", "well if they aren't revealing God's word, then why should I follow lock-step"? "doesn't matter, God will take care of the Church"?. "I'm not talking about the Church, I'm talking about me, why should I treat their words as manna from Heaven when I have God's Word in scripture, why should I value their word above Scripture, when their word doesn't conform to God's Word and they haven't revealed any more of God's Word"? "Doesn't matter, follow the leaders"?, "okay, why?" "because they are the prophets!?", "okay, but if they don't give God's Word, then why should I value their words greater than scripture"? "doesn't matter, God leads the Church, they know best". etc. etc. etc.

It becomes circular argument where the actual proof of them acting in the capacity of Prophets, Seers, and Revelators is very, very slim.   In other words, just obtaining the title doesn't make you one, it gives you the right and ability, but doesn't make you one.

When I do a deep dive in studying scriptures and then compare that to the skim milk I get from General Conference-I find our current leaders wanting in their capacity.

You don't think they are giving God's word? You think that the messages shared at general conference are "skim milk"? You must not be listening very closely, and I recommend you just go back to lurking.

2 minutes ago, BobMaster said:

That's a great point! I fully recognize that He did not and I don't expect Him to do so today (speak every week, etc.). 

Personally, I would like to at least hear His Voice as dictated by a Prophet to an entire people once in my lifetime.  A once a generation thing would be nice-keep the fires of Faith burning for another generation.  As it is right now, it's been 102 years.

As I have said above, the prophet does speak for Christ...they always have, and he does not have to blatantly say this every time he speaks. You are the one who needs to be more receptive and listen better. Quit trying to force feed yourself meat when you actually need more milk.

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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Thou shalt not pretend to know or not know when God will need to speak to His children.

- this is probably in the tablet of commandments that broke.  ;)

 

Lol . . .great point.

On the other hand, it was Christ who said "Ask and ye shall receive".

We are His People, if as a people we were begging and pleading to God for Him to do so, would He not do so? Or would he give us a stone?

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11 minutes ago, BobMaster said:

It's okay, I absolutely sustain them in their abilities to do as they are called to do so, they just aren't doing so (at least not in any meaningful fashion).

You won't find many here willing to walk this path with you, I for one will not.
We have seen time and time again how this line of thinking swiftly takes an individual away from the Church.

Your shroud against the leadership of the Church has successfully been lifted.

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5 minutes ago, BobMaster said:

It it is false; then why do so many Saints fight when it is pointed out that we haven't had a vision in 102 years and the Manifestos are poor imitations.

Because you don't stick to factual observations, but draw implicit conclusions when you state what you see as the facts. Those Saints who fight what is said, myself included, dispute the assertion. We have had many visions in the past 102 years. I personally know people who have experienced them. They are not done away with.

5 minutes ago, BobMaster said:

Why is there so much push-back to state the obvious when it comes to the Manifestos?

Again, because you do not merely "state the obvious"; you draw conclusions, such as "we haven't had a vision in 102 years". The conclusions that you draw from the facts surrounding the Manifesto (or Manifestos, as you say, apparently including the 1978 revelation) are not implicit in the facts, but are merely one possible extrapolation from those facts. That people disagree with your interpretations of the Manifesto(s) doesn't mean they disagree with the facts surrounding the Manifesto(s) or the necessary implications of the Manifesto(s)—as opposed to inferences drawn, which is an entirely different thing.

5 minutes ago, BobMaster said:

I appreciate the conversation; I await your reply.

Thanks. I appreciate the conversation, too. I think your mindset has more than a grain of truth behind it. I also think it's plenty dangerous in its falseness, in no small part because there is more than a grain of truth to what you say. But I hope I have not been impolite in expressing my disagreement. That's an area I've been working to improve on for some time.

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39 minutes ago, BobMaster said:

When the bottom line is God's Word actually tells us why it is the way it is today-it's called a lack of faith.

So, when I say that we're supposed to hear the VoTL ourselves, that is a lack of faith?

28 minutes ago, BobMaster said:

When I do a deep dive in studying scriptures and then compare that to the skim milk I get from General Conference-I find our current leaders wanting in their capacity.

If i were to agree with you on this characterization of "skim milk", I would encourage you to consider that it is because of the condemnation that the whole church is under at this time -- for taking lightly the things which we have already received.

Edited by Carborendum
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5 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

You won't find many here willing to walk this path with you, I for one will not.
We have seen time and time again how this line of thinking swiftly takes an individual away from the Church.

Your shroud against the leadership of the Church has successfully been lifted.

I have unfortunately seen it in multiple individuals over many years...ward and stake leaders included. They feel that they have become more enlightened, when in reality they are more unhappy and lost. Everyone can see it but them.

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Just now, scottyg said:

You don't think they are giving God's word? You think that the messages shared at general conference are "skim milk"? You must not be listening very closely, and I recommend you just go back to lurking.

As I have said above, the prophet does speak for Christ...they always have, and he does not have to blatantly say this every time he speaks. You are the one who needs to be more receptive and listen better. Quit trying to force feed yourself meat when you actually need more milk.

I am telling you a hard truth that you don't want to hear, so you push me back to the corner. That's okay, no worries

If a prophet is speaking for Christ, then why do we not canonize his words?  I for one believe every single word spoken of by Christ through his prophets should be canonized-let's canonize every time a prophet speaks then?

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9 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

You won't find many here willing to walk this path with you, I for one will not.
We have seen time and time again how this line of thinking swiftly takes an individual away from the Church.

Your shroud against the leadership of the Church has successfully been lifted.

Lol, okay "against" leadership.  Okay.

Show me the visions, show me the Words of God-otherwise it is you who is against God for not wanting more visions, more of His Word.

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1 minute ago, scottyg said:

I have unfortunately seen it in multiple individuals over many years...ward and stake leaders included. They feel that they have become more enlightened, when in reality they are more unhappy and lost. Everyone can see it but them.

I'm very much at peace with myself.  I never said I was "more enlightened". I don't claim to have visions or revelations. I just study the Scriptures.

But I guess in your mind, studying the scriptures now means one is "unhappy and lost". Okey dokey!

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1 minute ago, BobMaster said:

I am telling you a hard truth that you don't want to hear, so you push me back to the corner. That's okay, no worries

If a prophet is speaking for Christ, then why do we not canonize his words?  I for one believe every single word spoken of by Christ through his prophets should be canonized-let's canonize every time a prophet speaks then?

🤦

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24 minutes ago, BobMaster said:

It it is false; then why do so many Saints fight when it is pointed out that we haven't had a vision in 102 years and the Manifestos are poor imitations.

Why is there so much push-back to state the obvious when it comes to the Manifestos?

Why do you fight so hard to say that they aren't revelations?

Was it a revelation when Nephi was taught how to build a ship?  Where are the plans?  Why didn't he provide them in the small plate of Nephi?  Such weak sauce!  We're supposed to believe that was actual revelation!

Was it a revelation when they received the Liahona?  Where was the vision?  Where was the "Thus Saith The Lord" printed out on the Liahona?

Should we simply delete most of the last part of the Book of Mormon because it wasn't a compendium of "Thus Saith The Lord"?  They were freaking sacrament talks, journal entries, and letters to family.  Why on earth are they considered scripture?!!?

For that matter, go ahead and delete most of the Bible.

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Just now, BobMaster said:

I'm very much at peace with myself.  I never said I was "more enlightened". I don't claim to have visions or revelations. I just study the Scriptures.

But I guess in your mind, studying the scriptures now means one is "unhappy and lost". Okey dokey!

Best of luck to you my friend, but we are all done here.

 

Yzma - It's like I'm  Talking to a monkey

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9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, when I say that we're supposed to hear the VoTL ourselves, that is a lack of faith?

If i were to agree with you on this characterization of "skim milk", I would encourage you to consider that it is because of the condemnation that the whole church is under at this time -- for taking lightly the things which we have already received.

You bring up a great point.  On and individual level, yes if individually we have not heard His Voice before then yes that is an individual lack of faith or lack of desire. Just like the baptism of fire (which is a real, tangible event not to be confused with a confirmation).

There is an individual lack of faith that results in individually not hearing the VoTL.

On your point about condemnation of the whole Church, I absolutely agree with you-no issues there.

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6 minutes ago, BobMaster said:

You bring up a great point.  On and individual level, yes if individually we have not heard His Voice before then yes that is an individual lack of faith or lack of desire. Just like the baptism of fire (which is a real, tangible event not to be confused with a confirmation).

There is an individual lack of faith that results in individually not hearing the VoTL.

On your point about condemnation of the whole Church, I absolutely agree with you-no issues there.

But, if we are to agree with you, that would mean that the individuals are NOT lacking faith, but that the leaders are somehow lacking faith for not having received revelation.

I and a few others have spoken about individuals having personal revelation in both voice and vision as well as other miracles.  Do you deny these?  If you don't, then the remaining leg is to believe our leaders don't receive revelation. 

So, what exactly are you saying here?  Just who is treating sacred things lightly?

Edited by Carborendum
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4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Why do you fight so hard to say that they aren't revelations?

Was it a revelation when Nephi was taught how to build a ship?  Where are the plans?  Why didn't he provide them in the small plate of Nephi?  Such weak sauce!  We're supposed to believe that was actual revelation!

Was it a revelation when they received the Liahona?  Where was the vision?  Where was the "Thus Saith The Lord" printed out on the Liahona?

Should we simply delete most of the last part of the Book of Mormon because it wasn't a compendium of "Thus Saith The Lord"?  They were freaking sacrament talks, journal entries, and letters to family.  Why on earth are they considered scripture?!!?

For that matter, go ahead and delete most of the Bible.

You just undercut yourself.  The liahona had God's Word written on it from time to time.

I am have not said that one must ONLY obey VOTL, and that God must ONLY communicate through VOTL.

Many, many things the Church leaders do are absolutely done through inspiration. I only state that in the big items (such as polygamy, homosexuality, etc.) I want to hear from God.  In general, the rest of the stuff doesn't matter.

Does it really matter if we do "Come Follow Me"? No. Does it really matter if we have 2 hours vs. 3 hours? No. Does it really matter if we combine HP with Elder's Quorum? No.

Those things are so minuscule that whether or not it actually came from God or from man is pretty immaterial. If it's inspiration great, if it's this seems like a good idea, let's do it, great.  I'll follow because to not follow in those issues is pretty stupid.

The point of this is that we are entering (and have been for a while) in a BIG PICTURE territory, i.e. decisions are being made that do dramatically affect things.  And I'd like to hear from God on it.

 

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