NeuroTypical

Brigham Young statue vandalized

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41 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

This kind of stuff has got to stop. I'm not going to lie, watching some, in my opinion, Confederate traitors have their statues removed from town squares doesn't bother me as long as it's done through the proper channels (eg. at the direction of mayors, city councils etc.) But by allowing mobs to vent their anger and take down statues themselves, we've opened a Pandora's box. Because almost no one, even the most heroic people from the past, had "enlightened" 21st century attitudes. So that's why Brigham Young, Ulysses S. Grant, Francis Scott Key, and a host of other heroic individuals have been lumped in with Stonewall Jackson and Nathan Bedford Forrest. We have got to put a stop to this public vandalism at some point.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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I'm really sick of how things are going in general.

We have a flawed past.  Each person is flawed.  We need to acknowledge that, learn, and move forward.  That's not achieved by erasing the past or pretending that a person is defined by a single flaw or virtue.  

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Tons of people want it to stop but nobody is going to do anything to stop it.  You know why?  Because the time to stop it was when these people were born - 20 or more years ago.  That's when their PARENTS could have raised them properly.

So, you want to do something about it?  RAISE YOUR KIDS PROPERLY.

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It doesn't surprise me in the least. Here, they've gone after Winston Churchill, Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King. 

This one was funny though...

Disgraceful behaviour of course. Thoroughly reprehensible. But still funny!

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Riots, vandalism, looting, and mobbing normally do not win people to your side of the equation.  I think it actually turns many who would otherwise be sympathetic to one's cause against them in most cases.  Rarely is it beneficial, though on occasion when it actually reflects popular opinion, it can boost a campaign IF it is done specifically and directly against those the majority opposes.  When one does not have the majority to support you, it doesn't really help much.

I am probably outspoken on many of the Confederate statues and other symbology from the South.  They rebelled against the nation, which is true.  Most were also pardoned after the war and the veterans honored as Americans.  It was part of the Southern legacy and as such, was something that Southerners had grown to respect (at least many of them).  Part of this was that during the reconstruction the Southerners had trouble grappling with their past.  They were a defeated people and as such, it was hard to find pride in those their heritage came from.  A concerted effort through the years showed that we did not necessarily have to be ashamed of our heritage, that even if they were wrong in many aspects, the leaders and people who were Confederates during the Civil War were MORE than just people who fought against the Union.  Many had noble qualities that one could look up to, and even if many of the reasons were wrong to fight the war, there were still many honorable people on both sides.  It was a tragic war, but one did not have to be ashamed of their legacy, even if the people were flawed themselves.

The Confederate flag is seen today as the symbol of racism and racial hatred.  When I was growing up it was not so.  I think people in the rest of the nation and even some of the youth today do NOT understand why it was utilized.  It was the symbol of rebellion.  It was the symbol of stubborn pride, and that of "being against the system."  This is why it was adopted by many of the racist groups at the time, because they were also rebelling against the system as they saw it.  HOWEVER, even as they also used it, they were not the ONLY ones that used it nor held it in such a manner.  It represented a sentiment that the Federal system was also tyrannical to a degree, and that states should hold more power over that of a strong Federal Government.  It also was used in a manner just to show one's independence and independent thought.  Sometimes it was just to show rebellion against local law enforcement (a popular notion that was utilized in such fashion by the design of the General Lee, a car in a 1980's TV show called the Dukes of Hazzard).

I know why many in other parts of the nation do not understand this about the South's heritage, NOR about the Flag that was used...but it was common for many in the South to understand when I was young and growing up.  There is no reason those who are youth in the South that they should be that ignorant though.

As time has moved on though, and it has become more associated with racist groups and racist thoughts, I agree that the old stars and bars battle flag should be done away with (though ironically, Georgia still uses the stars and bars, but an older version of it that was an actual flag of the confederacy...so...still a sign of heritage and rebellion against the overbearance of government).  Some of the statues that have become rallying points for racists probably should also be done away with...but the amount and way that many go about trying to get rid of these statues bothers me occasionally.  It seems more like they are trying to erase history rather than erase the symbols of racism.

In the same way, as popularity has gained in this manner, I see a movement to do away and erase Brigham Young from history in the West also.  As the church has bent it's knee to some of the Anti-Mormon demands in recent years and incorporated their ideas (ideas which would have previously gotten people excommunicated had they spread them in the church like they are today) it could be eventually the church does as these people demand.  However, it has not yet. 

In addition, there is no call for the vandalism, and I find it appalling.  Hopefully there are cameras that survey campus and they know exactly what those who did this look like.

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7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Tons of people want it to stop but nobody is going to do anything to stop it.  You know why?  Because the time to stop it was when these people were born - 20 or more years ago.  That's when their PARENTS could have raised them properly.

So, you want to do something about it?  RAISE YOUR KIDS PROPERLY.

I suppose by "properly" you mean teaching them ALL the truth? and not just half truths or just the "good stuff"? Im talking American history and church history. As far as church history we were only taught what was in the manuals, which was only the good stuff. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were practically Gods next to Jesus. Its no wonder that many are outraged when they find out the "other" stuff written in the many journals.

Me personally, I have no problem in separating a mans achievements from their personal life. Ones achievements are the talents that God has blessed them with to do the great thing that they did. Not many individuals could have led a group of people across the country to settle in a foreign land as B.Y. did. My ex wife on the other hand left the church and hates J.S. and B.Y. with a passion. 

I don't know, is it mostly men that are more understanding and tolerable of the faults of other men?

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I am hopeful that a lot of this will die down after the election. Cynical me believes Democrats want to keep stirring the pot, with the hopes that the younger set will transfer their anger into votes. Likewise, Republican leaders likely believe that older folks will be appalled, and vote for law and order. When one side wins the other will vent some, then this will calm down. If I'm wrong, anyone who wants can join me in the Rapture! :angel:

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4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I am hopeful that a lot of this will die down after the election. Cynical me believes Democrats want to keep stirring the pot, with the hopes that the younger set will transfer their anger into votes. Likewise, Republican leaders likely believe that older folks will be appalled, and vote for law and order. When one side wins the other will vent some, then this will calm down. If I'm wrong, anyone who wants can join me in the Rapture! :angel:

On sober reflection, my primary concern may be that the love of Vort is waxing cold. I have never in my life felt such disappointment and even disgust toward so many of my fellow Americans. I feel so drained that it's almost as if I have lost hope for society and just want to see the "other side" go their way while I and mine go ours. I want to care about my fellow man and mourn for the ignorance and hatred that blinds people. Perhaps if I could see my own fallen state better, I would be a lot more sympathetic and charitable toward those who vandalize businesses and chant stupid, meaningless, Orwellian slogans. As it is, I'm tired of putting up with their crap, and I just want them to go away.

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6 hours ago, Vort said:

On sober reflection, my primary concern may be that the love of Vort is waxing cold. I have never in my life felt such disappointment and even disgust toward so many of my fellow Americans. I feel so drained that it's almost as if I have lost hope for society and just want to see the "other side" go their way while I and mine go ours. I want to care about my fellow man and mourn for the ignorance and hatred that blinds people. Perhaps if I could see my own fallen state better, I would be a lot more sympathetic and charitable toward those who vandalize businesses and chant stupid, meaningless, Orwellian slogans. As it is, I'm tired of putting up with their crap, and I just want them to go away.

I have had a very recent struggle with this same issue, albeit from the other side of the spectrum.  I had advised our bishopric to seek input from the general ward membership on what we could do to help each of them feel comfortable returning to church. Mixed in with the vast majority of thoughtful responses were a few "There's nothing you can do that will make me feel comfortable right now." and a few "people just need to stop being scared and take things back to normal."

As you might expect, the "just stop being scared" comments triggered my thoughts of "what a blithering idiot." No sooner had I said that to myself than my mind was filled with this thought:

Quote

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matthew 5:22)

For most of this month, I've been struggling with how to repent and be more charitable toward those with whom I disagree.  It's hard.  It's really, really hard for me.

I don't have solutions.  I don't think I've made any progress in my repentance.  But know that you aren't alone in your feelings.

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13 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

I suppose by "properly" you mean teaching them ALL the truth? and not just half truths or just the "good stuff"? Im talking American history and church history. As far as church history we were only taught what was in the manuals, which was only the good stuff. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were practically Gods next to Jesus. Its no wonder that many are outraged when they find out the "other" stuff written in the many journals.

Me personally, I have no problem in separating a mans achievements from their personal life. Ones achievements are the talents that God has blessed them with to do the great thing that they did. Not many individuals could have led a group of people across the country to settle in a foreign land as B.Y. did. My ex wife on the other hand left the church and hates J.S. and B.Y. with a passion. 

I don't know, is it mostly men that are more understanding and tolerable of the faults of other men?

A parent doesn't have to teach his kids history.  A parent NEEDS TO TEACH his kids good manners and right conduct which includes self-discipline, repentance, forgiveness, humility and charity among other Godly virtues.

A parent doesn't need to know history himself.  A child will learn history out of curiosity.  "Nobody taught me this" - is a victimhood mentality.  The attitude that it is somebody else's fault that I didn't know X - that is an indication of a lack of virtue.  So yes, a parent can successfully parent even when such parent is illiterate if the parent successfully instills Godly virtues in his children, especially the virtue of humility - the acknowledgment that I don't know everything and, therefore, I can learn something from everybody else, living or dead, abolitionist or slave trader.

 

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14 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

I suppose by "properly" you mean teaching them ALL the truth? and not just half truths or just the "good stuff"? Im talking American history and church history. As far as church history we were only taught what was in the manuals, which was only the good stuff. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were practically Gods next to Jesus. Its no wonder that many are outraged when they find out the "other" stuff written in the many journals.

Me personally, I have no problem in separating a mans achievements from their personal life. Ones achievements are the talents that God has blessed them with to do the great thing that they did. Not many individuals could have led a group of people across the country to settle in a foreign land as B.Y. did. My ex wife on the other hand left the church and hates J.S. and B.Y. with a passion. 

I don't know, is it mostly men that are more understanding and tolerable of the faults of other men?

No, it is those who take responsibility for themselves and others that are tolerant of others' faults.

Your wife did not take responsibility.  That's one of the reasons she left the Church (you've told us her story in great detail).  Too much responsibility.

Any man who does the same will suffer from similar repercussions.

Edited by Carborendum

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On 6/21/2020 at 6:55 PM, Midwest LDS said:

This kind of stuff has got to stop. I'm not going to lie, watching some, in my opinion, Confederate traitors have their statues removed from town squares doesn't bother me as long as it's done through the proper channels (eg. at the direction of mayors, city councils etc.) But by allowing mobs to vent their anger and take down statues themselves, we've opened a Pandora's box. Because almost no one, even the most heroic people from the past, had "enlightened" 21st century attitudes. So that's why Brigham Young, Ulysses S. Grant, Francis Scott Key, and a host of other heroic individuals have been lumped in with Stonewall Jackson and Nathan Bedford Forrest. We have got to put a stop to this public vandalism at some point.

The problem is that this is not about slavery, racism, or "Confederate traitors".   That is why black business owners are being targeted just as much (or proportionally more) than white business owners.  That is why Lincoln and Grant statues are going down as well.  How many people really care about Brigham Young being racist or not? (I don't think he was, but that is beside the point).

All this vandalism and tearing down of statues is really about:

Removing all symbols of the old empire and replacing them with symbols of the new empire.  Nature abhors a vacuum.  As these statues come down, just wait for what they're replaced with.  That will tell you the real agenda behind all this.  

I don't know what those symbols will be or the specific agenda that will come.  But when the symbols start going up, we'll know then. What I do know is that they will be evil under the guise of justice and virtue.  Thus the devil transforms himself into an angel of light.

BTW, this is what disturbed me about Don Trump Jr. joking about putting up Trump statues in place of all those which were taken down.  I know he was joking.  But the fact is that SOMEthing will replace them.  And anything new is undiscovered territory.  Whereas, we would rather suffer those ills we have than to fly to others we know not of -- so long as such ills are sufferable.

Edited by Carborendum

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39 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The problem is that this is not about slavery, racism, or "Confederate traitors".   That is why black business owners are being targeted just as much (or proportionally more) than white business owners.  That is why Lincoln and Grant statues are going down as well.  How many people really care about Brigham Young being racist or not? (I don't think he was, but that is beside the point).

All this vandalism and tearing down of statues is really about:

Removing all symbols of the old empire and replacing them with symbols of the new empire.  Nature abhors a vacuum.  As these statues come down, just wait for what they're replaced with.  That will tell you the real agenda behind all this.  

I don't know what those symbols will be or the specific agenda that will come.  But when the symbols start going up, we'll know then. What I do know is that they will be evil under the guise of justice and virtue.  Thus the devil transforms himself into an angel of light.

And here I was hoping these people were just LARPing 1984.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

The problem is that this is not about slavery, racism, or "Confederate traitors".   That is why black business owners are being targeted just as much (or proportionally more) than white business owners.  That is why Lincoln and Grant statues are going down as well.  How many people really care about Brigham Young being racist or not? (I don't think he was, but that is beside the point).

I agree. This stuff is really starting to smack of the Chinese Cultural revolution in the late 60's. Everything from the past torn down by mobs that are acting with the approval of the government. As a historian, it turns my stomach, but I agree there is an overriding political will behind the madness.

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Just now, Midwest LDS said:

I agree. This stuff is really starting to smack of the Chinese Cultural revolution in the late 60's. Everything from the past torn down by mobs that are acting with the approval of the government. As a historian, it turns my stomach, but I agree there is an overriding political will behind the madness.

All revolutions do this.  The American, The Russian, the French, the German (many times).

Symbols mean a whole lot more than we give them credit for. --kinda makes me wonder about the "symbols" of the Temple and even the ordinances outside the temple.

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20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

All revolutions do this.  The American, The Russian, the French, the German (many times).

Symbols mean a whole lot more than we give them credit for. --kinda makes me wonder about the "symbols" of the Temple and even the ordinances outside the temple.

I hadn't thought to connect this current issue with the gospel, but you make an excellent point. Temple ordinances, scripture, even visions both modern and ancient make heavy use of symbolism. They teach lessons far beyond the actual physical symbol used (Lehi's great and spacious building, Jacob's ladder etc.) I had a lot more visceral negative reaction to New York announcing it would remove that statue of Teddy Roosevelt, than I would have someone just speaking ill of him because of what the symbolism of that act represents.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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16 hours ago, Vort said:

On sober reflection, my primary concern may be that the love of Vort is waxing cold. I have never in my life felt such disappointment and even disgust toward so many of my fellow Americans. I feel so drained that it's almost as if I have lost hope for society and just want to see the "other side" go their way while I and mine go ours. I want to care about my fellow man and mourn for the ignorance and hatred that blinds people. Perhaps if I could see my own fallen state better, I would be a lot more sympathetic and charitable toward those who vandalize businesses and chant stupid, meaningless, Orwellian slogans. As it is, I'm tired of putting up with their crap, and I just want them to go away.

However messed up you are, Vort, I'm worse. After hearing so many stories of police brutality and other abuses (and I'm saying nothing about whether they're true stories or not), part of me can't help rejoicing that the "Man" supposedly behind it all has been given a bloody nose. And the sight of a cheering crowd rolling Colston's statue through the streets and dumping it in the river was funny. Like many other things, it shouldn't have been funny, but it was.

So speaking for myself, I'm more worried about having too much sympathy than not enough. It helps to remember that however funny Colston may have seemed, other incidents of mob justice were not. Like in 2013, when Bijan Ebrahimi was dragged from his home, doused with gasoline and burned to death, because of rumours (false, as it later turned out) that he was a pedophile. The people who did that were not (to their own minds) evil. As far as they were concerned they were sticking up for the underdog. But an innocent man still died...

Not that I'm equating killing a man with dunking a statue, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Edited by Jamie123

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9 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

And the sight of a cheering crowd rolling Colston's statue through the streets and dumping it in the river was funny.

Perhaps it was. This (cheering mobs destroying statues) is an example of precisely the kind of mobthink that I abhor so much, and that afflicts the American political Left to such a great degree. Those with insufficiently enlightened opinions must be silenced! Persecute the evil non-believers! Perhaps my ancestral memories of just this sort of mobocracy that resulted in the persecution, imprisonment, rape, and murder of my ancestors and their neighbors only a few generations back tends to make me all the more intolerant of those who willingly abdicate their minds and emotions just so they can signal their virtue as loudly as possible.

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5 minutes ago, Vort said:

Perhaps it was. This (cheering mobs destroying statues) is an example of precisely the kind of mobthink that I abhor so much, and that afflicts the American political Left to such a great degree. Those with insufficiently enlightened opinions must be silenced! Persecute the evil non-believers! Perhaps my ancestral memories of just this sort of mobocracy that resulted in the persecution, imprisonment, rape, and murder of my ancestors and their neighbors only a few generations back tends to make me all the more intolerant of those who willingly abdicate their minds and emotions just so they can signal their virtue as loudly as possible.

Absolutely. Thats why we need to be on our guard. In our calmer moments we all think we're "the sensible ones".

Remember "The Drumhead"? Even Worf got dragged along!

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3 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Absolutely. Thats why we need to be on our guard. In our calmer moments we all think we're "the sensible ones".

Remember "The Drumhead"? Even Worf got dragged along!

I remember Drumhead.  I am embarrassed to say that if it were presented as a movement I were more amenable to supporting, I don't know if I'd be immune to it.  I would probably go along with it.

But the reason I'd consider myself more "sensible" is not because I'm immune to mob mentality.  I believe it because the "mob" that I'd tend to side with is the side that would be consistent with my set of values.  For instance:

  • I don't understand how taking down statues of Abraham Lincoln (the man most responsible for ending slavery in America) would correlate with ending racial injustice. 
  • I don't know how protesting for racial equality would include ransacking small businesses owned by minorities.
  • I don't know how Christians who believe a cult is growing too powerful would go about raping the cult's women to death and justify it as God's will.

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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I remember Drumhead.  I am embarrassed to say that if it were presented as a movement I were more amenable to supporting, I don't know if I'd be immune to it.  I would probably go along with it.

But the reason I'd consider myself more "sensible" is not because I'm immune to mob mentality.  I believe it because the "mob" that I'd tend to side with is the side that would be consistent with my set of values.  For instance:

  • I don't understand how taking down statues of Abraham Lincoln (the man most responsible for ending slavery in America) would correlate with ending racial injustice. 
  • I don't know how protesting for racial equality would include ransacking small businesses owned by minorities.
  • I don't know how Christians who believe a cult is growing too powerful would go about raping the cult's women to death and justify it as God's will.

I don't understand about Lincoln either. Perhaps it was because his emancipation proclamation gave a free pass to the Northern slave states. Or perhaps because of what he said about freeing slaves vs. preserving the Union. (I can't quote exactly but I'm sure you know what I mean.)

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1 minute ago, Jamie123 said:

I don't understand about Lincoln either. Perhaps it was because his emancipation proclamation gave a free pass to the Northern slave states. Or perhaps because of what he said about freeing slaves vs. preserving the Union. (I can't quote exactly but I'm sure you know what I mean.)

I think I know what you mean.  But if you believe the rioters today have any semblance of sufficient historical knowledge to put that together or enough self-control to guide themselves by such knowledge, I think you give them too much credit.

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