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prisonchaplain

Title IX Believe the Victim or the Perpetrator?

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It's articles like this: https://dailytrojan.com/2020/05/20/usc-usg-respond-to-department-of-education-title-ix-changes/

that make me thankful I live in a country that is both democratic and one with a Constitution, laws, and certain unalienable rights. As my title suggests, it's easy to load a question so that the obvious answer...the 'woke' answer...gets chosen, even though our higher laws protect the alleged sexual villain. To put it simply, when a college student accuses another of molestation, abuse or rape the accused--the alleged perpetrator--is supposed to get the presumption of innocence. The accuser has the burden of proof. I learned this in high school debate.

Ironically, the so-called liberals opposing the reversion of Title IX to this standard are embracing a lynch mob mentality. Then again, most of the accused are male . . .

Edited by prisonchaplain

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The problem with this issue is that it is such an emotional issue that EVERYONE wants justice -- for whichever side.  But NO one knows which side should be punished.  I don't remember the exact numbers, but only about 5% of cases proved that the man actually committed such a horrific crime.  And only about 5% proved that the woman made it up.  The other 90% of the time, we don't really know.

That means that whether it was rape (a heinous crime) or false accusation (of a heinous crime -- making it, in my mind, a heinous crime in and of itself) a crime was committed.  And 90% of the time, it goes unpunished either way.  In fact, a little over 90%.  

Of the 5% that the man is found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, they sometimes get light sentences or cut a deal or whatever -- but still is branded a sex offender for the rest of his life.  Most of the 5% where the woman was found to have made it up, she often gets nothing, or just a slap on the wrist.

I honestly don't know if anyone is qualified to answer the following question:  Which is worse?  To be a woman who was raped?  Or to be a man who was very publicly & falsely accused of rape?  If you don't think this is even close, consider that when a man is accused of rape, his life is forever altered.  Many in college have their higher education halted, or even aborted entirely.  Men lose their jobs and careers are ended.  If I were so accused, my license would be taken away regardless of whether I was found guilty or not.  I would never be able to work again.  And what would happen to the woman in such cases?  Nothing -- the vast majority of the time.

As precious is the virtue of a woman and the right to control her body, the same is true of a man's reputation.  Our character is what drives our lives.  And while many things can be recovered from, this simply cannot be recovered from.  Such is our society.

I don't know the statistics on suicide rates among men accused of rape.  But I imagine it would be extremely high.  My uncle-in-law was so accused.  His career was ended.  And he has since considered suicide many times.  He simply doesn't see a way out.

Edited by Carborendum

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I suspect that it is worse to be raped than to be falsely accused. However, the question ought to be whether we would rather see some guilty go free or some innocents be punished. Our country has always erred on the side of letting the guilty go free: the presumption of innocence. The Obama administration reversed that in this specific case--and then required college administrators to be the litigators and adjudicators. The stories abound of women who discovered, often through sensitivity training, that a prior relationship from months ago doesn't feel right. Maybe that drunken encounter was at least somewhat planned (or anticipated) by the guy. Next thing you know the male international student is being sent home with his single-entry visa, labeled a sex-offender. 

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1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

I suspect that it is worse to be raped than to be falsely accused.    

I disagree that one is worse the other.  They're both on the same level of life-ruining.

 

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

 However, the question ought to be whether we would rather see some guilty go free or some innocents be punished. Our country has always erred on the side of letting the guilty go free: the presumption of innocence. The Obama administration reversed that in this specific case--and then required college administrators to be the litigators and adjudicators. The stories abound of women who discovered, often through sensitivity training, that a prior relationship from months ago doesn't feel right. Maybe that drunken encounter was at least somewhat planned (or anticipated) by the guy. Next thing you know the male international student is being sent home with his single-entry visa, labeled a sex-offender. 

Illustrates exactly what I said above.

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13 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I suspect that it is worse to be raped than to be falsely accused

It's also worse to be murdered than it is to be raped, but I've never heard that as an argument for going only after the murderers and letting the rapists go free.

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Just now, prisonchaplain said:

Is this an argument for erring on the side of prosecuting the falsely accused??? 

No it's not.

I'm trying to demonstrate the fallacy of the argument: "Don't waste your efforts seeking justice for the falsely accused, when there are real rape victims who need justice far more."

You might just as easily say "Don't waste your efforts seeking justice for rape victims, when there are murder victims out there."

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There are so many levels of justice and views of justice.  I am somewhat confused and conflicted - especially in making realistic application to things as a Latter-day Saint and disciple of Christ.  Jesus did not say that we are excused from forgiving if the offence horrible or if we suffer greatly for something of which we were not guilty.  I struggle forgiving those that intend to do harm and refuse to consider the injustices they create.  I can handle forgiving someone that is sorry.  I can even handle forgiving someone that is suffering for their deeds but not really sorry.  Mostly I try to convince myself that some are so lost in evil that they are oblivious to what will be their fate for denying repentance.   And then I wonder about things I have neglected to repent of thinking it was not that bad.  Or I may say or think I am sorry - until the next time.  Sometimes I think Alma left out something and should have said, "Wickedness never was happiness - but it was sure fun while it lasted."

I have heart it said that it would be better to let 99 go free than to convict one innocent.  I am not sure where this kind of logic comes from - If you think about a just and merciful G-d that will right all wrongs in eternity - but for those living so in mortality - a society would be better off if 99 innocent individuals were put to death than to let one sociopath serial killer free thinking they are immune to any repercussions. 

It would seem that regardless of what we mortal humans do - we will fail.  Our justice will fall short at one point or another.  There will always be some injustice for living in mortality and a fallen state.  But I think the idea of presumption of innocence until proven guilty - may be hard to swallow in many instances but I cannot think of anything we humans can do to replace it.  I have faith that G-d will set all things right but I still worry that when he does - it may not work out as well for me as I had thought.  But then I realize that Jesus in Gethsemane that his suffering there did not work out so well for him either.  I am thinking that to be a disciple of Christ - we will suffer with him.  I think we may not want to partake of our cup any more than he did his.

 

The Traveler

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5 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

No it's not.

I'm trying to demonstrate the fallacy of the argument: "Don't waste your efforts seeking justice for the falsely accused, when there are real rape victims who need justice far more."

You might just as easily say "Don't waste your efforts seeking justice for rape victims, when there are murder victims out there."

Okay, I get this. The debate respecting Title IX is over whether allegations of sexual misconduct—especially on college campuses—should be treated as other offenses in which the accused has the presumption of innocence or, as the Obama administration instituted: whether accusers should get the presumption of being truthful while the accused is treated as already guilty, and given no opportunity to defend himself, lest the victim be re-traumatized. I was arguing for the accused to retain the presumption of innocence. It sounds like you agree. Yes?

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1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

Okay, I get this. The debate respecting Title IX is over whether allegations of sexual misconduct—especially on college campuses—should be treated as other offenses in which the accused has the presumption of innocence or, as the Obama administration instituted: whether accusers should get the presumption of being truthful while the accused is treated as already guilty, and given no opportunity to defend himself, lest the victim be re-traumatized. I was arguing for the accused to retain the presumption of innocence. It sounds like you agree. Yes?

Yes.

To be a little less laconic, yes I think there should ba a presumption of innocence at that level as well as at the criminal court level. Otherwise it would be just too easy for a malicious accuser to have his/her way. "Do what I say or I'll accuse you of raping me - and you know I'll be the one who'll be believed!"

They say false accusation is very rare. Whether that's true or not I dont know, but if it is, I bet it's at least partly down to the opposition that accusers face. Only those with a real complaint suffer through it. Remove that opposition,  and an important safeguard against false accusation is gone.

Edited by Jamie123
I was in a hurry first time - it deserved elaboration.

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