Carborendum

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21 hours ago, Traveler said:

Once again you are using variant reading in reference to textual criticism if presidents and prime ministers are kings and their nations are kingdoms.  Perhaps you can enlighten me as to how you personally validate variant reading of scripture.

I believe that those ten kings of Revelation will be ten future leaders of some kingdom that they will
obtain from the beast for a short time.  The title of *king* can include Prime Ministers, Presidents,
or whatever term the beast uses to title them as.

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On 8/14/2020 at 3:35 PM, Jonah said:

I believe that those ten kings of Revelation will be ten future leaders of some kingdom that they will
obtain from the beast for a short time.  The title of *king* can include Prime Ministers, Presidents,
or whatever term the beast uses to title them as.

I have pondered engaging in drilling down into your thinking.  As you can see things on the forum are a little slow.  So I have a question for you.  Have you studied the near Eastern Suzerain servant vassal treaty as applied anciently to the understanding of Kingdoms and such application in interpreting scripture?  Again if find this a little strange because I am engaging a professed Catholic in a subject dominated (perhaps as much as 90% by Catholic scholars).  

In our modern societies Prime Ministers, Presidents and such are elected by vote of the citizens of a nation.  Anciently it was believed that Kings ruled by right given them from G-d - which, as you can see, is quite different that to be empowered by men.   It would be a gross contradiction for the beast to give power of rule to someone chosen by the election of the citizens.

As a side note - From the Book of Mormon we see this profoundly played out that Kings and those that wish to keep Kings on their thrown are in most cases; anti-Christ.  As a non-expert but part-time student of ancient Hebrew the letters MLK (without vowels) designate a king.  In the Book of Mormon we see that for the most part those that would be king or have a king have names based around the MLK designation.  Just wondering to what level you have studied the Near Eastern Suzerain power and relationship to a Kingdom.  And are you interested in pursuing this from the dominated by Catholic scholars and discussing how such would support or change your opinion?

 

The Traveler

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On 8/23/2020 at 11:06 PM, Traveler said:

Have you studied the near Eastern Suzerain servant vassal treaty as applied anciently to the understanding of Kingdoms and such application in interpreting scripture? 

Just wondering to what level you have studied the Near Eastern Suzerain power and relationship to a Kingdom.  And are you interested in pursuing this from the dominated by Catholic scholars and discussing how such would support or change your opinion?

I have not studied that, but I think you are over-complicating things to the point where one cannot
understand what a 'king' or his 'kingdom' could represent in Revelation 17.

Edited by Jonah
small addition

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4 hours ago, Jonah said:

I have not studied that, but I think you are over-complicating things to the point where one cannot
understand what a 'king' or his 'kingdom' could represent in Revelation 17.

It seems to me you are missing a great many things that can contribute to the context of scripture.  For example - the ancient notion of a King is someone that received the right to rule from G-d.  In Revelation 17 - the power to govern obviously is coming through the Beast.  (Which is neither divine or of man).  Thus the context seems to suggest not an obvious departure from that which is given by divine power or oversight but rather a "counterfeit" or "appearance" of that which is divine.

 

The Traveler

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On 8/25/2020 at 5:14 PM, Traveler said:

It seems to me you are missing a great many things that can contribute to the context of scripture.  For example - the ancient notion of a King is someone that received the right to rule from G-d.  In Revelation 17 - the power to govern obviously is coming through the Beast.  (Which is neither divine or of man).  Thus the context seems to suggest not an obvious departure from that which is given by divine power or oversight but rather a "counterfeit" or "appearance" of that which is divine.

 

The Traveler

Verse 12 says And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as
yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast
.

I see these 10 kings obtaining a temporary kingdom in the future via power granted by the beast, but
which God permits.

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17 hours ago, Jonah said:

Verse 12 says And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as
yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast
.

I see these 10 kings obtaining a temporary kingdom in the future via power granted by the beast, but
which God permits.

I personally struggle with things that seem to have no purpose or understanding - often referenced in religion as a mystery of G-d.   How will you identify the 10 kings or "know" when that future you speak of is occurring?

 

The Traveler

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22 hours ago, Traveler said:

I personally struggle with things that seem to have no purpose or understanding - often referenced in religion as a mystery of G-d.   How will you identify the 10 kings or "know" when that future you speak of is occurring?

 

The Traveler

I don't know who these 10 kings or leaders will be, but if we are around, we'll know when the
beast is revealed and he gives them power for a short time. Then we will also see the harlot
destroyed.

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On 8/29/2020 at 7:46 AM, Jonah said:

I don't know who these 10 kings or leaders will be, but if we are around, we'll know when the
beast is revealed and he gives them power for a short time. Then we will also see the harlot
destroyed.

How do you know that it has not occurred or is currently occurring?  Especially if you are not certain what the kings or even the "beast" and "harlot" will actually be?  Why would there be a prophesy that no one understands - especially among those that claim to believe the prophesies?

 

The Traveler

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On 8/30/2020 at 11:51 AM, Traveler said:

How do you know that it has not occurred or is currently occurring?  Especially if you are not certain what the kings or even the "beast" and "harlot" will actually be?  Why would there be a prophesy that no one understands - especially among those that claim to believe the prophesies?

 

The Traveler

I think its all based on some events in the future.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he
deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both
were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone
.

The power of this false prophet is mentioned earlier in Revelation.

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of
men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to
do in the sight of the beast.

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