BoM Is Abolitionist

[MarginOfError]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, you've made a good effort.  But that misses the point.  I'm well aware that there are nuances.  But when you cut it down to the most fundamental assumptions of the entire, complex, nuanced arguments, you cannot deny that if "all white people are racist" is a false statement, then the argument (as currently framed) falls apart.

Try making the same arguments without that assumption and you'll get a LOT more traction.  A lot of points these very links made were perfectly valid.  But when you use "all white people are racist" as the premise to generate all these, then that just makes me want to ignore the good points of the message that may or may not be valid.

I can get that.  Fortunately, the movement seems to be making strides there, and we're kind of the bleeding edge of developing the language to talk about it.  I've really only noticed anti-racist come into the mainstream vernacular this year. Kendi's book on the matter was published in August of 2019. And he, in particular, is also trying to separate the problem as not being an issue of bad people, but of bad policy. Again, I think you'll find a lot of value in that approach.

[MarginOfError]

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

No, what you've been trying to get across is clear. Now it's you who is missing the point. The statement, however "nuanced", is absurd on its face. It would never be accepted if said about any other race or group. That's the point of those who say it "sarcastically". They are demonstrating the idiocy of the statement by taking the low-down, treacherous route of repeating it..

So it's this approach.....how noble

[Traveler]

The problems with all the current discussion about race - there is no scientific way to determine anyone's particular race as being different from someone else's.   Genetically we human are so genetically diverse that the only possible scientific conclusion is that we are all of the same race.  Take whatever genetic trait you can as unique and different and then imagine  that if every individual currently alive with that trait was eliminated from the gene pool we would discover that within 10,000 years that the same % of the population we currently encounter with that particular trait will be the as if nothing was done.

If we attempt to define race by non scientific methods - we would have to define anyone that thinks racism exists - is themselves, raciest. 

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

6 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

So it's this approach.....how noble

1. It may not be noble, but it's effective for any intelligent and honest person. Even if you don't like how the message is delivered, the message itself comes across loud and clear. And if that doesn't justify it, at least it explains it. Which is more than the anti-white racists can truthfully say.

2. Lack of nobility doesn't mean lack of intelligence. There is nothing "idiotic" about correctly demonstrating the dishonesty of a foolish political viewpoint. Again, this is not meant as a justification of the action, but calling it "idiotic" is simply untrue.

3. The original point still stands. Defining racism as the anti-white racists do is absurd. As one specific example, if you are going to crucify white people for having been racist in past generations, or even now, then if you are honest and just, you must:

a. Crucify every other race for their past and current racist attitudes
b. Exalt and honor white people, especially American white people, for having created the least implicitly racist society currently in existence.

If the evil is to be recognized, so must the good. To do otherwise is unjust, especially when you are judging people as a group instead of as individuals. When was the last time you heard the media exalt "white people" as a group for the immense good they have accomplished in the world? It seems that every nonwhite scientist or actor or musician or schoolteacher is recognized for his/her accomplishments, including the accomplishment of being non-white. This is blatantly and unapologetically racist. So at least apply it equally.

[Carborendum]

Sectarians call us "a cult."  Ravi Zacharias tries to soften it a bit by explaining they are using a specific definition -- one that isn't used anywhere else by anyone else about anyone else except for "Mormons."  If we cry foul and logically explain why it's inaccurate, they simply respond,"Well, it's nuanced.  Our definitions are different. You're just so brainwashed that you don't know any better."

Gee, where have I heard that before?

The BLM side will say "All white people are racist. But it's nuanced.  Our definitions are different.  You're just too indoctrinated by the system to know any better."

And, yes, when some (and by "some" I mean many) Black people say "Black lives matter" they truly mean "Black lives are better than white lives."  That's why we see videos of black people kicking white people in the head while saying "Black Lives Matter!"   They apparently don't believe white lives matter.

[Anddenex]

9 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

 I rather abhor the sarcastic and/or ironic declaration of "we all know that if you're white, you're automatically a racist" because the only people I've ever heard make such a statement are white people, and it's always done in a way that mocks anti-racist efforts.

The emphasized portion is incorrect. With your experience I am a little shocked you would say such. My son, while in high school, went to a symposium regarding racism. The whole emphasis was that white people are racist, and if you are white, you are automatically racist. The symposium was given by two black (brother and sister) and one white woman.

So, with how studied you are, I am a little shocked at your experience here.

[JohnsonJones]

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

And, yes, when some (and by "some" I mean many) Black people say "Black lives matter" they truly mean "Black lives are better than white lives."  That's why we see videos of black people kicking white people in the head while saying "Black Lives Matter!"   They apparently don't believe white lives matter.

This is a difficulty that BLM is facing in many fronts, though many young people do not research or look enough into the matter to figure it out for themselves.

BLM states that when they say Black Lives matter, it means that Black Lives matter too.  It does not mean that ONLY Black Lives matter, but that they also matter just as much as anyone else's.

However, when you see dialogue from their leaders talking about Black superiority, or promoting vandalism or antagonism towards others, INCLUDING OTHER MINORITIES including those of Asian and Native American heritage...their actions seem to speak louder than their words.  They follow through and do damage to other minorities, ostracize them, and are just as racists towards other minorities as they accuse people of being towards them...it bothers me.

When the do that, though they say they only mean Black lives matter too, it strikes me that their actions are actually saying...ONLY Black Lives Matter. 

One of the definitions they've tried to say is that racism is only possible by the majority who are in power to enact policy, thus it is impossible for any minority member to be racists.  They use this so they can try to excuse the prejudice they openly display towards others who are not Black, including other minorities. 

I think much can be done for equality in the US and the rest of the world.  I agree heavily on this point and at times have even argued for more equality in various organizations and even the church on these forums.  HOWEVER...the way BLM leaders have ACTED (Rather than what they have said) bother me tremendously, because their actions say that no lives matter unless they are black, and that other minorities are to be ignored at best, and put down in the effort to prop up black lives.

That said, I DO support the IDEA that Minorities matter and that Black Lives matter also.  I think there have been things that have made their lives harder and that there are things that we can do to improve the way we view things and how we act.

I cannot speak for everyone else, but I admit that there is probably racism inherent in me and how I act.  Part of it is natural as it was ingrained in me from when I was a child.  Another part, is based on various experiences, though I recognize them and seek to do away with behaviors and emotions related to that.  The natural reactions are harder to recognize and do away with, though I try my best.  It can be a difficult thing to recognize racism within one self and try to get rid of it.  Sometime it needs others to point it out (and then hope I am not obstinate enough to resist their hints and accept it rather than fight it).  I am currently imperfect, but only the Lord is perfect and through him, someday, hopefully, I can be too.

[Jonah]

On 7/2/2020 at 9:54 AM, Carborendum said:

In the 1820s slavery was still a big thing.  The northern states had just outlawed it about 10 years before Joseph's birth.  But the southern states were chugging along with the institution.

I purchased a book called "Saints, Slaves, & Blacks - The Changing Place of Black People
Within Mormonism" by Newell G. Bringhurst.  I haven't read all of it so far, but it appears to 
give a good glimpse into some of the hardships the Saints went through in that era.

[Carborendum]

 

[Guest MormonGator]

On 7/3/2020 at 3:11 PM, MarginOfError said:

So it's this approach.....how noble

Off topic: Ride the Lightning is one of the greatest metal albums of all time. It's amazing how one band released three 5 star albums in a row. 

[Carborendum]

Latest stats

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-shootings-doubled-for-third-straight-week-hundreds-injured-in-gun-violence-spike/2500446/

Without the "anti-crime unit" shootings in New York have skyrocketed.

And Atlanta mayor:

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/06/887602301/enough-is-enough-atlanta-mayor-calls-for-violence-to-end-after-child-killed

Quote

We are doing each other more harm than any police officer on this force.

 -- Atlanta Mayor

So

• Black on black crime already was killing a multitude more blacks than police ever did during a similar period even as police were enforcing the law.
• Blacks are hurting blacks more and more (spike in shootings statistics) without police patrolling and enforcing the law.

But it's the police that are failing the black community?  How does that work, exactly?

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Carborendum

[Phineas]

On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 1:08 PM, Carborendum said:

Latest stats

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-shootings-doubled-for-third-straight-week-hundreds-injured-in-gun-violence-spike/2500446/

Without the "anti-crime unit" shootings in New York have skyrocketed.

And Atlanta mayor:

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/06/887602301/enough-is-enough-atlanta-mayor-calls-for-violence-to-end-after-child-killed

So

• Black on black crime already was killing a multitude more blacks than police ever did during a similar period even as police were enforcing the law.
• Blacks are hurting blacks more and more (spike in shootings statistics) without police patrolling and enforcing the law.

But it's the police that are failing the black community?  How does that work, exactly?

 

 

It doesn't work. The people clamoring to defund or abolish the police are out of their freaking minds.

[Traveler]

8 hours ago, Phineas said:

It doesn't work. The people clamoring to defund or abolish the police are out of their freaking minds.

Not if they are dealing in (or using) drugs and human trafficking or other crimes. 

 

The Traveler