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Carborendum

Taking Odds on the Election

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

A friend of mine was the foreman in the construction of an intercoastal bridge.  Everytime we drive over the bridge he says, "this is my bridge" such that it has become tradition.  The bridge is named after some important historical figure.  I used to tell him, they should've named it after you.  But then he says to me, I just followed the civil engineers' diagrams.  It should be named after them. 

I was on a R&D team the designed a automated guided vehicle (AGV) to replace fork trucks in factories.  Disney thought it to be a great addition to one of their "rides".  Sometime people find applications for our stuff beyond any design specifications.  Because I know the design limitations - I am scared to death of that particular ride.  Of course we added a ton of stuff for safety - but I know too much.

 

The Traveler

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52 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is my opinion...

When choosing a possible POTUS/VPOTUS, proven leadership (Executive Skills) should be a higher requirement than wit (masterful communication).  And even higher than that is the direction of one's natural compass (separate from the party's compass, taking into consideration one's self-interest).  McEnany has great communication skills and can drive a narrative but has unproven leadership skills.  Ivanka has proven leadership but I don't trust her natural compass.  Don Jr has both leadership and a compass directed in the same direction as my inclinations, but he is lacking his father's (and McEnany's) masterful ability to control the narrative even as he has wit.  I can't really think of anybody right now who can do what DJT can do and has done.  As has been evident, establishment positions in the Executive branch has been going rogue for decades and 4 years of DJT just managed to put a dent on the machine.  For 2024, you need a DJT-like candidate that, not only can make that dent break wide open, but can also masterfully get Congress on board with the compass to change the culture of Exective Orders into lasting legislation.

You make some good points.  And ordinarily I'd simply agree and leave it at that.  But I'm feeling frisky today.  So, let me play devil's advocate.

You've read Sanderson's Wax & Wayne series thus far.  You're familiar with Steris's devotion to the "Survivalist" theology.  What if I take the postion that due to the depraved society we live in today that "traditional leadership" is not the most important trait in leaders today?  Would that hold water?

Looking at it through Steris's eyes, we don't have to approve of the social order of the day to simply work it enough to survive -- and thrive.  In that vein, I find that the society today is more about rhetoric and wit than wisdom, experience, or moral compass.  If that is the case, wouldn't it be better to put into leadership one who is most witty and quick on their feet -- AND has the right set of values in her heart?  

McEnany has talked about her faith and conversion.  Apparently she's a fan of Ravi Zacharias.  She seems to have good family values as well.

IOW, I'm feeding NT's claim "she may be an SOB, but she' OUR SOB."  Well, not son, but...

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31 minutes ago, Traveler said:

There is no science to budget.

In an avant-guarde field like robotics and virtual reality, of course not.  It's all NEW.

But in most fields of enineering, there are codes to follow specifically because we use tried and true principles.  And it's usually stuff that has been done a hundred times, for which we have cost data on 100 projects.  We put that together and there is usually a pretty good guess we can make for the final cost.

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35 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You make some good points.  And ordinarily I'd simply agree and leave it at that.  But I'm feeling frisky today.  So, let me play devil's advocate.

You've read Sanderson's Wax & Wayne series thus far.  You're familiar with Steris's devotion to the "Survivalist" theology.  What if I take the postion that due to the depraved society we live in today that "traditional leadership" is not the most important trait in leaders today?  Would that hold water?

YES!  DEFINITELY!... which is basically how we got Trump.  Who would have, in a million years, made me consider that a Real Estate and Reality TV Business Tycoon can actually hold executive office.  I used to think that a Law Degree or a vast experience in Law through State positions held a lot of value on that totem pole of values, not only in the Legislative and Judicial branches but also in the Executive branch.  But 2015 has made me come to the realization that vast experience in politics and the brainwashing happening in law schools are actually detrimental to the office of POTUS in today's world.

 

Quote

Looking at it through Steris's eyes, we don't have to approve of the social order of the day to simply work it enough to survive -- and thrive.  In that vein, I find that the society today is more about rhetoric and wit than wisdom, experience, or moral compass.  If that is the case, wouldn't it be better to put into leadership one who is most witty and quick on their feet -- AND has the right set of values in her heart?  

So, stating what I did above... I'd add this one:

Through Mistborn, I thought Kelsier - the survivor - was the right choice for chosen leader to topple the establishment.  His death was a "huh?" to me but then I realized Vin was actually the chosen leader and I'm like, yeah that would make sense, Kelsier was the mentor of the leader... except as the story progresses, we realize Vin is only useful to break down obstacles.  Sayzed - somebody I didn't even consider to hold the office - was actually the PERFECT leader because he has the intrinsic "eternal" values to set things back together in their proper place.

Juxtaposed with today's political climate - Trump is Vin.  Trump has 4 more years to do his Vin-things of breaking obstacles.  2024 would need a Sayzed and McEnany isn't that.  But, let's say Trump is Kelsier (surviving Fake News and every establishment institutions), then let's say 2024 we're gonna still need a Vin to complete Trump's work... then it will be 2032 for Sayzed to bring things back together... I still don't think McEnany is strong enough to be a Vin.  DJTJr might - although, I'm still not sure if he's got a strong instinctive compass (which McEnany has).

 

Quote

McEnany has talked about her faith and conversion.  Apparently she's a fan of Ravi Zacharias.  She seems to have good family values as well.

IOW, I'm feeding NT's claim "she may be an SOB, but she' OUR SOB."  Well, not son, but...

I'm still thinking of someone that would be great in 2024/2032.  But I'm thinking this is gonna be just like Sayzed - he/she will come up in the campaign season completely surprising me.

Edited by anatess2

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I originally wrote the following, posting the comic at the end as a "by the way". For some reason, only the comic strip scan got posted.

************************************************

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

In an avant-guarde field like robotics and virtual reality, of course not.  It's all NEW.

But in most fields of enineering, there are codes to follow specifically because we use tried and true principles.  And it's usually stuff that has been done a hundred times, for which we have cost data on 100 projects.  We put that together and there is usually a pretty good guess we can make for the final cost.

The bread and butter of modern engineering is the reuse of standardized components. That is why "software engineering" was sneered at by "real" engineers for years; everything is a unique write-up. I think most today see that's no longer the case, if it ever was after the earliest days of coding. But there is confidence in using tried-and-true pieces. Safety skyrockets. Reminds me of this comic I read in an IEEE newspaper-type publication about 22 years ago, and cut out to decorate my office space (but has been sitting in my garage window for many years now).

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56 minutes ago, Vort said:

I originally wrote the following, posting the comic at the end as a "by the way". For some reason, only the comic strip scan got posted.

************************************************

The bread and butter of modern engineering is the reuse of standardized components. That is why "software engineering" was sneered at by "real" engineers for years; everything is a unique write-up. I think most today see that's no longer the case, if it ever was after the earliest days of coding. But there is confidence in using tried-and-true pieces. Safety skyrockets. Reminds me of this comic I read in an IEEE newspaper-type publication about 22 years ago, and cut out to decorate my office space (but has been sitting in my garage window for many years now).

Ahh yeah.  Programming these days has become a... lemme google a script for that...

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

The bread and butter of modern engineering is the reuse of standardized components. That is why "software engineering" was sneered at by "real" engineers for years; everything is a unique write-up. 

I'd say that the software engineer is not a true engineer because it doesn't require a license.  It isn't that it the state tests for and issues said license.  It is the responsibility behind the license.  The liability is high.

When I place my stamp on a project, I'm putting my entire career on the line each time I do so.  A software engineer?  Nope.  (Sorry, @anatess2).

This is why most people should stay away from the engineering profession.  They either can't stand that kind of pressure, or they really shouldn't be trusted with that kind of responsibility.

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7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

In an avant-guarde field like robotics and virtual reality, of course not.  It's all NEW.

But in most fields of enineering, there are codes to follow specifically because we use tried and true principles.  And it's usually stuff that has been done a hundred times, for which we have cost data on 100 projects.  We put that together and there is usually a pretty good guess we can make for the final cost.

Unless someone raises an environmental concern 😉

 

The Traveler

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Just now, Traveler said:

Unless someone raises an environmental concern 😉

Did I never tell you that story?

I was in the early stages of the project where we had to do a preliminary design where I introduced an environmental containment device.  I pointed out that environmental laws (CFR) required it.  They wanted to ignore it.

It had some minor cost -- out of a $1MM project, this would cost about $10k.  The client hated it and said that it would cost too much.  But another engineer wanted to add a small piece of equipment that cost $75k and it was approved.

Months later, a kick-off meeting began with a model review.  Everyone was there from the initial stages of the project -- with the addition of an environmental specialist.  She noticed there was no environmental containment.  Upon her remark, the same person who insulted me for raising the cost of the project jumped ahead and said,"No problem, we can add that in."

SMH.

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16 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'd say that the software engineer is not a true engineer because it doesn't require a license.  It isn't that it the state tests for and issues said license.  It is the responsibility behind the license.  The liability is high.

When I place my stamp on a project, I'm putting my entire career on the line each time I do so.  A software engineer?  Nope.  (Sorry, @anatess2).

This is why most people should stay away from the engineering profession.  They either can't stand that kind of pressure, or they really shouldn't be trusted with that kind of responsibility.

Wait... software engineers don't require licenses?  I'm not talking about MCSE certification and the like either.  I thought you guys have Electronics, Computer, and Software Engineers, et. al., certified through the same professional board.

I'm not a software engineer, I'm a computer engineer graduate that didn't take the board exam because, first, I wanted to be a programmer, and 2nd I wanted to chase tech in the USA.  I graduated in the 90's when Philippine technology was 10 years behind the US.  There is no board exams in the Philippines specific for computer engineering because computer engineering technology flies so fast that the exam creation can't change at the same pace as tech - in the Philippines, professional exams have to first be enacted by Philippine law with oversight by the Philippine Regulatory Commission and an accreditation board creates the exam.  Any changes have to go through this cycle of going through law.  It has become that when you start your engineering course in college, the tech you were studying on is obsolete by the time you graduate.  For example, I started my engineering course on an 8088 microprocessor.  By the time I graduated, the 8088 chip was obsolete.  So the PRC decided that computer engineers can take the EELE exams with the electronics engineers for certification which necessitated computer engineers to double major in electronics and communications engineering (which can still be completed in 5 years).  From what I heard, the Philippines finally got caught up enough to have their computer engineering board exams approved by PRC.  I'm not sure when the exams are going to start though.

Software Engineers in the Philippines also get board exams (basically, you can't put Engr before your name in any engineering field and stamp it on designs unless you get the license).  The field started in the Philippines waaaay after Computer Engineering though - when I was already in the USA - so I didn't pay attention to how they are licensed.  And yes, Software Engineers do get their names stamped on their software even if the software is an OS that is programmed into a chip and the chip itself says Intel on it.  The engineers' names are usually either embedded in the source code or held at the company you work for who owns the source code.  In the Philippines though, you can't stamp your name as Engr. antess2 unless you have the license.  By the way, you remember the I Love You virus?  Yeah, it was super easy to track the dude who wrote the thing because he stamped his name on it.  Hah hah, Filipinos...

I got my masters in systems engineering in the US.  Systems Engineers go through a CSEP licensure in the USA.

Edited by anatess2

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14 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Did I never tell you that story?

I was in the early stages of the project where we had to do a preliminary design where I introduced an environmental containment device.  I pointed out that environmental laws (CFR) required it.  They wanted to ignore it.

It had some minor cost -- out of a $1MM project, this would cost about $10k.  The client hated it and said that it would cost too much.  But another engineer wanted to add a small piece of equipment that cost $75k and it was approved.

Months later, a kick-off meeting began with a model review.  Everyone was there from the initial stages of the project -- with the addition of an environmental specialist.  She noticed there was no environmental containment.  Upon her remark, the same person who insulted me for raising the cost of the project jumped ahead and said,"No problem, we can add that in."

SMH.

Some day we must get together and share some old engineering war stories.  My favorite happened when I was working for Boeing Military and Space.  The Air Force had a project (from a different contractor) that was in deep trouble.  They came to Boeing for help.  I had worked with an engineer on a couple of projects,  He was off the charts brilliant (certified genus) but also off the charts eccentric.   He was charged with putting together a "tiger team" to audit the project and determine what was needed to complete it.  He, myself and 3 other engineers were selected by him.  I must say this was back in the day when there was kind of a unwritten rule that certain engineers could wear anything they wanted to work.  However, for our initial meeting with the Air Force brass we were require to wear a coat and tie - something my friend hated.  I think he was born in a hippy commune and never knew who was his parents - anyway he had really strange social skills - even for an engineer.

The day of the meeting he was wearing his only coat, tie and dress shirt (etc) and seem unusually excited about his outfit.  For the first few hours we were debriefed on the project and the problems were outlined.   Then came the time for my buddy to respond with initial impressions.  He jumped on top of the conference room table while saying - "This sounds like a job for --"  he tore open his shirt to display a superman tee shirt - "for Super Engineers".  After we got the Air Force brass calmed down we outlined the real approach.  Eventually we took over the project and completed it.  After the initial meeting my buddy told we that he has always wanted to do that.  I thanked him for having me along to watch.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Wait... software engineers don't require licenses?  I'm not talking about MCSE certification and the like either.  I thought you guys have Electronics, Computer, and Software Engineers, et. al., certified through the same professional board.

"Professional Engineers" are defined as those professions which require engineering knowledge that will have an affect on the "life, health, and safety" of the public.  Software engineers don't do work that affects that -- directly.

If the software has a direct impact on the operation of some equipment that will effect the life, health, or safety of the public, it must be signed off by a competent licensed engineer (PE). 

If the software is pretty generic, then, no.  The software can be done by a "certified" (as opposed to a licensed) individual.

Edited by Carborendum

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12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

"Professional Engineers" are defined as those professions which require engineering knowledge that will have an affect on the "life, health, and safety" of the public.  Software engineers don't do work that affects that -- directly.

If the software has a direct impact on the operation of some equipment that will effect the life, health, or safety of the public, it must be signed off by a competent licensed engineer (PE). 

If the software is pretty generic, then, no.  The software can be done by a "certified" (as opposed to a licensed) individual.

A software engineer is completely different than a programmer.  And... information technology DO affect life, health, and safety of the public.  If you haven't, you need to watch any interview with Elon Musk where he warns about the looming AI technology.

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6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

A software engineer is completely different than a programmer. 

Then you'll have to explain what is is you're talking about.  Your use of the term "software engineer" may be the same as what I called a "control systems engineer" or "I&C engineer".  Define your terms.

My brother and two brothers-in-law are "software" engineers.  And they handle information and designs of various government and military "stuff" that they can't talk about or else it is "not accurate".  None of them have licenses for their professions.  They have special something-er-others (like specialty certifications) and security clearances.  

My other brother is not a "programmer" per se.  He's heavy into IT.  He's basically head of tech support for some big name companies.  He has no license. 

A cousin works in IT with a specialization in supply chain management.  No license.

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

And... information technology DO affect life, health, and safety of the public.  If you haven't, you need to watch any interview with Elon Musk where he warns about the looming AI technology.

OK.  Explain.  I see the interface with what I call IT and don't see the connection.

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14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Then you'll have to explain what is is you're talking about.  Your use of the term "software engineer" may be the same as what I called a "control systems engineer" or "I&C engineer".  Define your terms.

My brother and two brothers-in-law are "software" engineers.  And they handle information and designs of various government and military "stuff" that they can't talk about or else it is "not accurate".  None of them have licenses for their professions.  They have special something-er-others (like specialty certifications) and security clearances.  

My other brother is not a "programmer" per se.  He's heavy into IT.  He's basically head of tech support for some big name companies.  He has no license. 

Software Engineers design software technology into existence.  Programmers use software technology created by engineers.

The ONLY reason most companies don't require a professional license for software engineering is because technology changes too fast for the licensure exam to be relevant to the current engineering activity.  But just because you were able to work on technology without a license doesn't mean that you are not bound to ethical practice.  It simply means there's no way to measure knowledge and ethics in a technology that changes drastically every couple years.

 

Quote

A cousin works in IT with a specialization in supply chain management.  No license.

OK.  Explain.  I see the interface with what I call IT and don't see the connection.

"Works in IT" doesn't mean you're an engineer.

AI human implants is the work of computer and software engineers (and biomech, of course).  It did not exist before they started building it.  It does not exist in the general public right now.  But, according to Musk, if the 'rona didn't sideswipe them, they would have the first human implant before the end of this year.  Musk - even as he is high up on the AI chain and is a big contributor to its development - has been blaring warnings about this technology for years.  Nobody has addressed the ethics and human negative impact of the thing... because, it is developing soooo fast.  This would be like Edison and Tesla inventing electricity... they don't have "electrical engineering licenses" until much later in the electric age because technology is moving fast they haven't figure out how to license the thing yet!

Edited by anatess2

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3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Software Engineers design software technology into existence.  Programmers use software technology created by engineers.

The ONLY reason most companies don't require a professional license for software engineering is because technology changes too fast for the licensure exam to be relevant to the current engineering activity.  But just because you were able to work on technology without a license doesn't mean that you are not bound to ethical practice.  It simply means there's no way to measure knowledge and ethics in a technology that changes drastically every couple years.

 

"Works in IT" doesn't mean you're an engineer.

AI human implants is the work of computer and software engineers.  It did not exist before they started building it.  It does not exist in the general public right now.  But, according to Musk, if the 'rona didn't sideswipe them, they would have the first human implant before the end of this year.  Musk - even as he is high up on the AI chain and is a big contributor to its development - has been blaring warnings about this technology for years.  Nobody has addressed the ethics and human negative impact of the thing... because, it is developing soooo fast.  This would be like Edison and Tesla inventing electricity... they don't have "electrical engineering licenses" until much later in the electric age because technology is moving fast they haven't figure out how to license the thing yet!

Yes.

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2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes.

P.S.  In my day, there was only Computer Engineering.  We were the first CompEng grads in the Philippines.  Before that, computers were in Electronics and Communications Engineering and before ECE was created in the 80's, they were in Electrical Engineering.   There were no Software Engineers in the Philippines until the 2000's.  So, in my day, Computer Engineers get to design the Software for their creations.  That's why I got plenty of software training even as I was in Computer Engineering.  The past couple decades split the Software part from the Hardware part because technology got so wieldy. 

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3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Wait... software engineers don't require licenses?  I'm not talking about MCSE certification and the like either.  I thought you guys have Electronics, Computer, and Software Engineers, et. al., certified through the same professional board.

I'm not a software engineer, I'm a computer engineer graduate that didn't take the board exam because, first, I wanted to be a programmer, and 2nd I wanted to chase tech in the USA.  I graduated in the 90's when Philippine technology was 10 years behind the US.  There is no board exams in the Philippines specific for computer engineering because computer engineering technology flies so fast that the exam creation can't change at the same pace as tech - in the Philippines, professional exams have to first be enacted by Philippine law with oversight by the Philippine Regulatory Commission and an accreditation board creates the exam.  Any changes have to go through this cycle of going through law.  It has become that when you start your engineering course in college, the tech you were studying on is obsolete by the time you graduate.  For example, I started my engineering course on an 8088 microprocessor.  By the time I graduated, the 8088 chip was obsolete.  So the PRC decided that computer engineers can take the EELE exams with the electronics engineers for certification which necessitated computer engineers to double major in electronics and communications engineering (which can still be completed in 5 years).  From what I heard, the Philippines finally got caught up enough to have their computer engineering board exams approved by PRC.  I'm not sure when the exams are going to start though.

Software Engineers in the Philippines also get board exams (basically, you can't put Engr before your name in any engineering field and stamp it on designs unless you get the license).  The field started in the Philippines waaaay after Computer Engineering though - when I was already in the USA - so I didn't pay attention to how they are licensed.  And yes, Software Engineers do get their names stamped on their software even if the software is an OS that is programmed into a chip and the chip itself says Intel on it.  The engineers' names are usually either embedded in the source code or held at the company you work for who owns the source code.  In the Philippines though, you can't stamp your name as Engr. antess2 unless you have the license.  By the way, you remember the I Love You virus?  Yeah, it was super easy to track the dude who wrote the thing because he stamped his name on it.  Hah hah, Filipinos...

I got my masters in systems engineering in the US.  Systems Engineers go through a CSEP licensure in the USA.

We have a few engineers in our family (Edit - note, most of them are from either my wife's brother's and sisters or my brothers and sisters and their families), and most of those that go into Electrical, Computer, or Software Engineering, as far as I know do not get the PE (Professional Engineer) and do not even take the test. 

On the otherhand, the Civil and Mechanical Engineers I know aim to get their PE as soon as they can and have a great desire to pass the test.  All of them that have worked in the field over 4 years have all gotten their PE.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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Just wanted to respond to the initial OP.  I do not think it will be possible to determine who rightfully wins the upcoming election - rather it looks to be decided by who is the most cleaver at steeling it.  The experts are all predicting that it will be close.  So I am wondering where the indictments will be filed first - by the winner against the looser or the looser against the winner.

 

The Traveler 

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Yup, the media sealed the coffin on Trump's Presidency in that debate and the aftermath.  Too many low information voters were unable to hear about Biden's corruption.  They were fed lies about Biden's positions that most moderate Democrats are against.

Too many low information voters who think Trump handled the pandemic poorly.  Too many think the economy is doing poorly -- with or without the pandemic, it is doing remarkably well compared to the anemic growth during Obama/Biden.

Too many low information voters who think Trump is a racist.

Too many low information voters who think Biden somehow helped them in the past 47 years.

Too many low information voters who think that Trump broke some law or other somewhere.  They can't point to what laws.  But by Jove, he's broken some, I'm sure of it!  And he deserves to be impeached... again!

And combine that with the fraud, we all know is happening to some degree on both sides, is kicking into high gear to help Biden.   And there doesn't appear to be any help for Trump on that.

So, get prepared for ultra high taxes, court packing, more people believing they are "victims", and being told the lie that America is no longer the land of opportunity.  Be prepared to get into more wars.  And, of course, be prepared for further curtailing of religious freedom.

I'm going to start praying for a hurrying of the Second Coming.

Edited by Carborendum

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Appears clear that Arizona is determined to get to the bottom of their election system and confirm to it's voters that either it functions securely/properly or there was fraud in the Presidential election. Today Arizona had a preliminary hearing where they shared that the audit on Maricopa County alone had issues with 74k votes. That is just Maricopa. 
Both Pennsylvania and Georgia appear to be next to conduct election audits. 

868704274_Untitled-3copy.jpg.366e8c99821e1f4a043a7398a2f90239.jpg

What would be worse, stopping an individual from taking office OR trying to remove them from office it was acquired?
Perhaps we might find out. 

I'm still with Carb though:

On 10/23/2020 at 6:59 AM, Carborendum said:

I'm going to start praying for a hurrying of the Second Coming.

 

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10 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Appears clear that Arizona is determined to get to the bottom of their election system and confirm to it's voters that either it functions securely/properly or there was fraud in the Presidential election. Today Arizona had a preliminary hearing where they shared that the audit on Maricopa County alone had issues with 74k votes. That is just Maricopa. 
Both Pennsylvania and Georgia appear to be next to conduct election audits. 

868704274_Untitled-3copy.jpg.366e8c99821e1f4a043a7398a2f90239.jpg

What would be worse, stopping an individual from taking office OR trying to remove them from office it was acquired?
Perhaps we might find out. 

I'm still with Carb though:

 

 

Maricopa County addressed this on social media.

Screenshot_20210716-072519_Twitter.thumb.jpg.205f0a04a67ac67d3f2fcb019730da01.jpg

It makes sense. In my (Minnesota) county, people had the option to show up early to vote in-person even if a ballot had been mailed to them. These in-person ballots were processed like mail-in ballots, and the ballot that was mailed to you would be voided in the event that you decided to vote in-person instead. Therefore, my county probably received far more "mail-in" ballots than it sent out because it's likely that a lot of people who never requested mail-in ballots voted early in person, and those votes were counted as mail-in. It also means that a voter may have received a ballot in the mail with its own unique barcode ID, but submitted a ballot in-person on a different ballot with a different barcode ID. Even if they filled out and returned both ballots, only one would be counted.

It's also worth noting that the county recorder (an elected official) in Maricopa is a Republican who has been very critical of the audit process and has exposed flat-out lies that have come out of the audit, like the deleted files claim.

 

This gave me a good chuckle.

Screenshot_20210716-072443_Chrome.thumb.jpg.5a53cf66b9126a5a98bd6b5e51585071.jpg

I guess going door-to-door to ask people if they're vaccinated is tyranny, but doing it to ask if people voted is saving democracy? 🤔

Link to full article here.

Edited by Godless

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