Plein Air

Push for Utah to mandate statewide mask wearing

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25 minutes ago, Plein Air said:

My choice as to whether I want to attend church, regardless of my risk factor, should not be impacted by those who refuse to wear a mask contrary to the request of priesthood leaders.

If local leaders require people to wear masks, they should wear masks; if local leaders do not require people to wear masks, you do not have the right to expect other people will wear them; you are, however, free to exercise your freedom of speech and politely ask them if they will oblige.

25 minutes ago, Plein Air said:

Technically everyone is at risk.

Yeah, but how much risk is key; technically everyone is at risk of being struck by lightning, too.  Those between the ages of 0-69 have a combined average risk of 0.08% (I know because I actually downloaded the CDC data and did the math myself).  Broken down, those between age 60-69 have a risk of about 4.6%, those between 50-59 only about 1.8%; the highest risk is for those 70 and above.  By the way, that is IF you catch the virus in the first place.

Here is a nice little info-graphic I made last week.  Be sure to understand it, the data is about IF you die this year; I took the real data of COVID-19 death's and total deaths of all kinds to formulate this information.  The data is based on the expectation that this year the US is on track to have  ~ 2,649,916 total death's of all kinds (interestingly that is substantially reduced from the pre COVID-19 projection of ~2,939,303 expected deaths.  Anyway, here you go:

image.png.889eb0ad1ff0cbc5807ca1e6222aba7c.png

19 minutes ago, Plein Air said:

If it were only that simple. 

It really is that simple.

Edited by person0

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Perhaps you missed it that I am talking about Utah, where we were all told by the area presidency to wear masks not only to church but in every public area.

And no, it isn't that simple. Sorry. 

Edited by Plein Air

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26 minutes ago, Plein Air said:

Perhaps you missed it that I am talking about Utah, where we were all told by the area presidency to wear masks not only to church but in every public area.

And no, it isn't that simple. Sorry. 

Church leaders only have the authority to require masks on Church property, not anywhere else.

If you want to suggest it isn't that simple, it would be much more useful if you presented your case.  I don't understand the benefit of simply stating your disagreement without any elaboration; how can I understand what you might mean?

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4 minutes ago, person0 said:

Church leaders only have the authority to require masks on Church property, not anywhere else.

If you want to suggest it isn't that simple, it would be much more useful if you presented your case.  I don't understand the benefit of simply stating your disagreement without any elaboration; how can I understand what you might mean?

I am not talking about authority, I am talking about obedience to a request by church leaders. You seemed to have missed that as well.

Honestly, I am not really interested in presenting my case any further to  you. No offense. I disagree with you and that is the end of it for me. 

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The disagreement with masks isn't:

- Disagreeing with your right to wear a mask wherever you want.  That's obviously your right.

- Disagreeing with your right to request that people on your property/business wear a mask wherever you want.  That's obviously your right.

 

There is disagreement on:

-Whether you can dictate that I wear a mask in the privacy of my own backyard.  Or at a park.  Or other communal places where my say matters too. 

- And how do we best treat each other with respect, even when views on this topic vary.  

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5 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

There is disagreement on:

-Whether you can dictate that I wear a mask in the privacy of my own backyard.  Or at a park.  Or other communal places where my say matters too. 

- And how do we best treat each other with respect, even when views on this topic vary.  

The basic disagreement is on handing over your right to wear or not wear whatever you please to the government - local, state, or federal.  There is ZERO difference between mandating that someone wear a mask for whatever reason to mandating someone wear a hijab for whatever reason.  The reason is irrelevant.  The right to what people wear or not wear rests on the people and cannot be infringed.  The most libertarian of us already believe that the mandate for people to not be naked in public is already an infringement citing nudity in Europe as having more liberty.  Going much more beyond that is an expansion of government powers that carries more risk than utility. 

It is the responsibility of every individual to take care, or not, of your health.  That responsibility SHOULD NOT be handed over to the government.  Someone's fear of death is not a reason for the government to arrest someone else for their choice to prevent covid spread mask-free.

 

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9 hours ago, Plein Air said:

Perhaps you missed it that I am talking about Utah, where we were all told by the area presidency to wear masks not only to church but in every public area

"Told"?
What does "told" mean? They 'encouraged' you OR they dropped the hammer and made masks an absolute requirement to enter Church meetinghouses in Utah?
If they dropped the hammer, then members trying to enter meetinghouses without masks would/could/should be turned away... right?
This means a high risk person should be able to enter the meetinghouse without concern since everyone inside would have their mandated masks on - correct?

8 hours ago, Plein Air said:

Honestly, I am not really interested in presenting my case any further to  you.

@person0 shared some great information with you, information that should have actually helped you.

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16 hours ago, person0 said:


image.png.889eb0ad1ff0cbc5807ca1e6222aba7c.png

 

It seems your intent with these numbers is to show how small the percent of COVID deaths there will be in 2020.  But 8.66% seems INCREDIBLY high to me.  When was the last time a virus pushed those numbers? (Not a rhetorical question, if you know, I'd be very interested)

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Guest MormonGator

I don't understand not wearing a mask. Don't we owe it to the weak and vulnerable in our society to protect them? Isn't that "Loving one another as I loved you?" 

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45 minutes ago, dprh said:

It seems your intent with these numbers is to show how small the percent of COVID deaths there will be in 2020.  But 8.66% seems INCREDIBLY high to me.  When was the last time a virus pushed those numbers? (Not a rhetorical question, if you know, I'd be very interested)

Are you sure you read the numbers right?  I will admit, the graphic can be a bit confusing.  8.66% means that it is estimated that 8.66% of total 2020 death's will be from COVID-19.  That isn't a super large number, especially when you consider that ~25% of deaths will be from heart disease and ~20% of death's will be from cancer.  The graphic states, "IF you die in 2020" not, "IF you get COVID-19."  Total USA death's in 2020 is estimated to be ~ 2,649,916.  That would mean 8.66% of that (~229,483) would be the maximum anticipated deaths from COVID-19.  Sure that is pretty hefty, but that is still only 0.07% of the total population of the US.

14 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I don't understand not wearing a mask. Don't we owe it to the weak and vulnerable in our society to protect them? Isn't that "Loving one another as I loved you?" 

Sure.  However, there are two completely separate arguments in play.  One is whether or not one should wear or not wear a mask; the other is whether or not one should be forced to wear a mask.  I am only arguing against government officials forcing people to wear a mask; that is the only question that involves oppressive control.

Edited by person0

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2 minutes ago, person0 said:

I am only arguing against government officials forcing people to wear a mask; that is the only question that involves oppressive control.

It's a point of view I have sympathy for. After all, I hate being told what to do too, especially by the government. But I have zero problems with them making mask wearing mandatory, and no, it's not step one to them rounding you up and putting you in camps. 

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1 minute ago, person0 said:

Are you sure you read the numbers right?  I will admit, the graphic can be a bit confusing.  8.66% means that it is estimated that 8.66% of total 2020 death's will be from COVID-19.  That isn't a super large number, especially when you consider that ~25% of deaths will be from heart disease and ~20% of death's will be from cancer.  The graphic states, "IF you die in 2020" not, "IF you get COVID-19."

Sure.  However, there are two completely separate arguments in play.  One is whether or not one should wear or not wear a mask; the other is whether or not one should be forced to wear a mask.  I am only arguing against government officials forcing people to wear a mask; that is the only question that involves oppressive control.

Yes I understood. I don't think it's a confusing graphic.  I still  think 8.66% is very high for a single virus.  There are a lot of resources that have gone into fighting heart disease and cancer for years.  And why I asked about other viruses for a better comparison.

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1 minute ago, dprh said:

Yes I understood. I don't think it's a confusing graphic.  I still  think 8.66% is very high for a single virus.  There are a lot of resources that have gone into fighting heart disease and cancer for years.  And why I asked about other viruses for a better comparison.

Okay, well the death rate of the flu in any given year is expected to be up to 2.3% of all death's.  Death's from random accidents is around 6 to 7 percent each year.

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22 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 no, it's not step one to them rounding you up and putting you in camps. 

I agree.  And I have difficulty understanding people who refuse to wear masks where they 'should' and use the reasoning that they are protesting the mandates.  Disobeying is not the same as protesting.  I have a friend who will only wear a mask if he needs to go to Costco because they won't let him in the store without it.   Then he wears it only over his mouth.  He claims he's standing up for his freedom.  I tried to tell him, no one notices or cares.  It's not making the statement he thinks it is.

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10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's a point of view I have sympathy for. After all, I hate being told what to do too, especially by the government. But I have zero problems with them making mask wearing mandatory, and no, it's not step one to them rounding you up and putting you in camps. 

You have the right to your opinion.  The idea of mask mandates are because of asymptomatic spread.  Consider these two recent research studies that conclude that asymptomatic spread is not measurably happening to any statistically significant degree.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

Quote

Among the samples collected without a face mask, we found that the majority of participants with influenza virus and coronavirus infection did not shed detectable virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols. . .

The major limitation of our study was the large proportion of participants with undetectable viral shedding in exhaled breath for each of the viruses studied. We could have increased the sampling duration beyond 30 min. . .

Even with 30 min of breathing in close contact with the measuring devices in laboratory settings, even for those who had symptoms, the majority did not shed detectable virus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7219423/

Quote

455 contacts who were exposed to the asymptomatic COVID-19 virus carrier became the subjects of our research. . .
The median contact time. . . was four days. . .
All CT images showed no sign of COVID-19 infection. No severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infections was detected in 455 contacts by nucleic acid test.

Admittedly, this was only one patient, but even with a median of 4 days contact, none of those studied became ill with the virus.

The point?  Given that there is ample contrarian evidence about the effectiveness of masks, I believe we should teach people correct principles and let them govern themselves.

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https://www.wsj.com/articles/face-masks-really-do-matter-the-scientific-evidence-is-growing-11595083298

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

https://www.healthline.com/health/cold-flu/mask

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-21/masks-help-avoid-major-illness-coronavirus

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/20/893227088/growing-body-of-evidence-suggests-masks-protect-those-wearing-them-too

It's becoming very clear that masks work, at least to some degree. 

5 minutes ago, dprh said:

It's not making the statement he thinks it is.

I totally agree. It's making a statement, that's for sure. But not the kind of statement he thinks it does. 

I think @person0 is right to some degree-it's about if the government has the right to "force" you to wear a mask. 

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1 minute ago, dprh said:

And I have difficulty understanding people who refuse to wear masks where they 'should' and use the reasoning that they are protesting the mandates.  Disobeying is not the same as protesting.  I have a friend who will only wear a mask if he needs to go to Costco because they won't let him in the store without it.   Then he wears it only over his mouth.  He claims he's standing up for his freedom.  I tried to tell him, no one notices or cares.  It's not making the statement he thinks it is.

Your friend is wrong.  Private businesses absolutely have the right to mandate the use of masks.  Individuals like your friend are acting wrongfully.  Advocating for individual liberty and being obedient to the requests of a private organization are not mutually exclusive.  The statement he is making is that it is okay to ignore the rules of a private organization (which it isn't).  Individuals do not have the right to impose their beliefs on a private entity.  People like your friend lessen the efforts of those who respect private businesses and also advocate for individual liberty, and against government mandates.

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6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's becoming very clear that masks work, at least to some degree. 

I didn't suggest that masks don't work.  In fact, I will happily and readily admit that it is reasonable to expect they would, and I need no evidence.  I argued that asymptomatic spread is being used as a rationale for mandates and that, so far, the science is indicating that asymptomatic spread isn't actually happening.  That means that people who have symptoms should probably be wearing masks (or better - just stay at home), but those who do not have any symptoms are not accomplishing anything.  Hence, the general asymptomatic populous should be able/allowed to choose for themselves if they want to wear one or not.

Edited by person0

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Just now, person0 said:

I didn't suggest that masks don't work. 

I know, didn't say you did. Sorry it came out that way. 

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I know, didn't say you did. Sorry it came out that way. 

It didn't actually bother me.  I was saying that more for anyone else who might be lurking about. 😉

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Just now, person0 said:

It didn't actually bother me

Drat! I was hoping it gravely offended you and you would never be the same. I'll try harder next time. 

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9 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The basic disagreement is on handing over your right to wear or not wear whatever you please to the government - local, state, or federal.  There is ZERO difference between mandating that someone wear a mask for whatever reason to mandating someone wear a hijab for whatever reason.  The reason is irrelevant.  The right to what people wear or not wear rests on the people and cannot be infringed.  The most libertarian of us already believe that the mandate for people to not be naked in public is already an infringement citing nudity in Europe as having more liberty.  Going much more beyond that is an expansion of government powers that carries more risk than utility. 

It is the responsibility of every individual to take care, or not, of your health.  That responsibility SHOULD NOT be handed over to the government.  Someone's fear of death is not a reason for the government to arrest someone else for their choice to prevent covid spread mask-free.

 

I didn't read this whole thread but  I'm sure it's been pointed out that wearing a mask is not as much a matter of taking care of your own health as it is watching out for others'.

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18 hours ago, person0 said:

Yeah, but how much risk is key; technically everyone is at risk of being struck by lightning, too. 

I have been shocked by lightning twice (1987 and 1991).   

Quote

Those between the ages of 0-69 have a combined average risk of 0.08% (I know because I actually downloaded the CDC data and did the math myself)........

Here is a nice little info-graphic I made last week.

That is a good info-graphic, but it seems that a lot (maybe most?) people are only focused on death rates.  Most people will survive COVID19, but there are a lot of complications that no one will want to get.  Death isn't the ony unpleasant outcome.

 

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14 minutes ago, Scott said:

.  Most people will survive COVID19, but there are a lot of complications that no one will want to get.  Death isn't the ony unpleasant outcome.

Right, and by not wearing a mask, you could be placing the life of a total stranger into peril.

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