Plein Air

Push for Utah to mandate statewide mask wearing

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5 hours ago, dprh said:

As for the bold, most articles I've read completely disagree.

Cloth masks have been proven to have a 97% inbound penetration rate.  Outbound for some reason is better, but the truth is that masks are only useful if a wearer actually has symptoms.

Here is a recent study proving this:  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

Quote

Among the samples collected without a face mask, we found that the majority of participants with influenza virus and coronavirus infection did not shed detectable virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols. . .

The major limitation of our study was the large proportion of participants with undetectable viral shedding in exhaled breath for each of the viruses studied. We could have increased the sampling duration beyond 30 min. . .

Even if we were to agree that masks work as we expect, and even if we were to ignore the encroachment upon our individual liberty, asymptomatic people are not spreading this virus like was originally thought!

It all made sense at first, but now that we have this data, there is no justifiable reason to implement mandatory mask wearing.  We let individuals and businesses choose for themselves what risks they will and won't take.  We should still encourage people to wear a mask where it makes sense to do so, especially if they are showing any symptoms, but then we let everyone else decide what they will or won't do.  It should be that simple.

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Okay, I amend my statement.  That point is no longer valid in KY, but also in most other areas.  Hospitals are laying people off.

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8 minutes ago, person0 said:

Hospitals are laying people off.

They are, and it's mostly because people are canceling elective surgeries.

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14 minutes ago, person0 said:

 Outbound for some reason is better, but the truth is that masks are only useful if a wearer actually has symptoms.

 

Bingo.   If I don't have the virus, why am I forced to wear a mask?

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17 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Bingo.   If I don't have the virus, why am I forced to wear a mask?

 

109635506_3437708936261412_6919723358514685793_o.jpg

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And it might be possible to spread it without knowing you have it. 

Screen Shot 2020-07-22 at 10.02.04 PM.png

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Just now, MormonGator said:

And it might be possible to spread it without knowing you have it.

Did I not link to a scientific research study that suggests that isn't actually happening?  I also linked to a different one yesterday that showed the same thing.

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1 minute ago, person0 said:

Did I not link to a scientific research study that suggests that isn't actually happening?  I also linked to a different one yesterday that showed the same thing.

They like to ignore that.  It kills the "wear a mask even if you don't have the virus" argument.

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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

They like to ignore that.  It kills the "wear a mask even if you don't have the virus" argument.

Wrong. It's because the evidence is still murky. There's a chance you could spread it. 

3 minutes ago, person0 said:

Did I not link to a scientific research study that suggests that isn't actually happening?  I also linked to a different one yesterday that showed the same thing.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/yes-you-can-get-covid-19-from-someone-without-symptoms

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/can-you-spread-covid-19-if-you-are-asymptomatic

https://www.medicinenet.com/can_you_spread_covid-19_with_no_symptoms-news.htm

https://whyy.org/articles/covid-19-can-spread-without-people-showing-symptoms-how-do-we-prepare-for-that/

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-1595_article

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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

How?

check the links I quoted in the above post. 

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3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

check the links I quoted in the above post. 

No.  I'm asking you.   I read the first article and it didn't say.  It just said it "could" happen but was extremely rare.  It didn't say how.

Edited by Grunt

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2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

No.  I'm asking you.

Oh you are, huh? Why? 

Look, I'm not a doctor (And neither are you) I can't explain how medicine works-though my Mom was nurse, that doesn't make me an expert. Why don't you read the links? Even if you disagree with them, maybe you'll understand why statist authoritarians like me are in favor of forcing you to wear a mask?  

Edited by MormonGator

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Just now, MormonGator said:

Oh you are, huh? Why? 

Look, I'm not a doctor. I can't explain how medicine works-though my Mom was nurse, that doesn't make me an expert. Why don't you read the links? Even if you disagree with them, maybe you'll understand why statist authoritarians like me are in favor of forcing you to wear a mask?  

You're the one making the argument.  I read your first link and it didn't say.  Why are you telling me to "read links" to find answers to questions when the answers aren't there.

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:
Quote

Most reports of presymptomatic,  asymptomatic, or a combination of presymptomatic or asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 transmission were from China. Presymptomatic or asymptomatic primary patients were typically exposed to SARS-CoV-2 during travel from Wuhan or another city in Hubei Province, China. One couple was exposed during a mass gathering in Shanghai for the Chinese Spring Festival. Reported cases of infected persons who transmitted the virus to others while presymptomatic or asymptomatic have occurred within families or households, during shared meals, or during visits with hospitalized family members. An inherent confounder to these reports from China is the inability to entirely rule out alternative SARS-CoV-2 exposure in the community early in the outbreak, when transmission in the community may have been undetected.

🤔

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Just now, person0 said:

🤔

https://www.nfid.org/infectious-diseases/frequently-asked-questions-about-novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov/
Are individuals contagious before they develop symptoms?

There is evidence that the novel coronavirus can be spread before an individual develops symptoms. This poses a problem because people who do not know they are infected may continue to go to work, school, and other public places. People who are sick and have symptoms are more likely to stay home, which means fewer opportunities for the virus to spread from one person to another. When asymptomatic transmission occurs, infection control experts and public health officials may need to take additional measures, such as social distancing, isolating patients, or using quarantines.

 

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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

Why are you telling me to "read links" to find answers to questions when the answers aren't there.

Keep reading. You'll find them. 

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Just now, MormonGator said:

There is evidence that the novel coronavirus can be spread before an individual develops symptoms. . .

That states there is evidence, but the article that talks about the evidence says that the data mostly comes from China, and they can't be sure it was actually asymptomatic spread because it might have come from other interactions.

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1 minute ago, person0 said:

That states there is evidence, but the article that talks about the evidence says that the data mostly comes from China, and they can't be sure it was actually asymptomatic spread because it might have come from other interactions.

Check out all the other links too. There is evidence that it can be spread asymptomatically, it's a bitter pill to swallow. Is the evidence murky? Maybe, but it's there. 

Edited by MormonGator

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4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Keep reading. You'll find them. 

Why won't you just post them?   It's YOUR argument.  Support it.  I just spent my time reading the first article you posted as an answer to my question.  The answer wasn't there.   Support your position.  Quote the evidence, please.

Edited by Grunt

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2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

   Support your position.

By posting the links that support what I'm saying, I'm doing exactly that. I know  you don't like it. Sorry @Grunt

Bedtime for me.

Edited by MormonGator

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4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

By posting the links that support what I'm saying, I'm doing exactly that. I know  you don't like it. Sorry @Grunt

Bedtime for me.

You keep saying that.  I am telling you they DON'T answer my question.   You're making it up, which is why you won't quote it.

It's disappointing.  You can't have a discussion about something this important with someone who is being intentionally intellectually dishonest.

Edited by Grunt

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10 hours ago, Grunt said:

It's disappointing.  You can't have a discussion about something this important with someone who is being intentionally intellectually dishonest.

Oh, amen to that! 

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