Plein Air

Push for Utah to mandate statewide mask wearing

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If the Governor enacts some kind of statewide mask requirement spawned by all the pressure to do so from various factions, mostly up on the Wasatch Front, if it isn't in the form of a law, passed by the legislature, or if martial law has not been declared, where does the authority to enact such a rule come from, not to mention the authority to enforce?

More questions that are rattling about in my cranium.

  • How is it going to be enforced?
  • Who will be saddled with enforcing it?
  • What will the consequences and/or penalties be for first time "offenders"?
  • What will be done to people who are repeat offenders?
  • What will happen if law enforcement departments refuse to enforce the rule or mandate?
  • Might there be violent protests and rioting over this, similar to the looting and rioting nonsense related to other topics, that we are seeing even in Utah?
  • How far do you feel the forced compliance might go? Escalating fines? Jail time? Property seizures if motor vehicles are involved? The use of Tazers, teargas or deadly force by law enforcement? 
  • Do you think we might see people being seriously injured or killed over this by regular citizens who are "triggered" by someone who disagrees with their stance, similar to the recent event of an apparently drunk Omar Johnson Levi, age 40, of Fillmore, shooting at people because they had pro trump flags on their ATV's?

If anyone is curious as to where I stand on this - I am currently on the fence, but tipping towards leaving it up to the individual to decided for themselves. I can see valid points on both sides. I strongly feel that it is the correct, kind and courteous thing to wear a mask in public places, but I am not all that anxious to see rioting, looting and violence happening over it, or to see the mandate enforced at the point of a gun, which is literally what it will take for some people. 

Edited by Plein Air

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8 hours ago, Plein Air said:

If anyone is curious as to where I stand on this - I am currently on the fence, 

Duuude... what's up with THAT?  You ruined my image of you.  ;)

Statists gonna state.  DON'T FALL INTO THE TRAP!

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8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Duuude... what's up with THAT?  You ruined my image of you.  ;)

Statists gonna state.  DON'T FALL INTO THE TRAP!

Sorry to disappoint you even for a moment. Actually I am totally against making it mandatory and an enforceable rule or law - I was just trying to look open minded for the cameras! 😎 My apologies for the gooey mess on the screen that leaked out of my momentarily open mind. 

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9 minutes ago, Plein Air said:

Sorry to disappoint you even for a moment. Actually I am totally against making it mandatory and an enforceable rule or law - I was just trying to look open minded for the cameras! 😎 My apologies for the gooey mess on the screen that leaked out of my momentarily open mind. 

It is ALWAYS two times worse to mandate a population to HAVE TO DO something than it is to mandate a population to NOT DO something.  For example, it is two times worse (if not more) to mandate that a population HAVE TO call you Xir than it is to mandate that a population NOT call you Ma'am.. yet banning speech (censorship) is still bad bad bad.

This goes the same for masks.  In Florida, a Florida statute banning masks was instituted in 1951 due to the KKK.  In 1979, a lawsuit was filed against the constitutionality of the mask ban such that in 1981, the statute was modified to be toothless so much so that it can be used against KKK hoods and masked robbers and the like but with very very big burden on proving intent of the mask use.  If I was a Floridian in 1981, I would vote to strike the entire statute out of existence.  And that was a BAN.  How much more for a mandate HAVE TO WEAR?

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3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

It is ALWAYS two times worse to mandate a population to HAVE TO DO something than it is to mandate a population to NOT DO something. 

Also, making someone do something causes some issues that aren't there when they just figure things out for themselves.  I need to remake this meme, because it's not just conservatives.  

COVIDConservatives-5CD9287FN5.thumb.JPG.e5d0ae2333d7b3187afff76b21f14686.JPG

Edited by NeuroTypical

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4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

How much more for a mandate HAVE TO WEAR?

Yup, I agree with you completely. If it happens, the bad will almost surely far outweigh the good. If the point is maybe saving lives, I can think of a dozen far better "mandates" to foist on us, some of which will absolutely save millions of lives every year. 

Edited by Plein Air

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29 minutes ago, Plein Air said:

Yup, I agree with you completely. If it happens, the bad will almost surely far outweigh the good. If the point is maybe saving lives, I can think of a dozen far better "mandates" to foist on us, some of which will absolutely save millions of lives every year. 

But... of course... this is not about saving lives.  This is about appeasement.

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Guest MormonGator
10 hours ago, Plein Air said:

but I am not all that anxious to see rioting, looting and violence happening over it,

Do you think conservatives will riot and loot over being forced to wear a mask? 

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16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Do you think conservatives will riot and loot over being forced to wear a mask? 

Conservatives are notorious for breaking into big-box stores after midnight and walking out with LCD TVs.

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Guest MormonGator
2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Conservatives are notorious for breaking into big-box stores after midnight and walking out with LCD TVs.

Right, those were my thoughts as well. 

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Utah enforces wearing a seatbelt...doesn't it?

 

PS: Constitutionally, as set by precedence by at least two cases previously, states have the right and ability to mandate temporary rules or regulations to enforce quarantines and other measures to contain a disease.

How that would apply to Utah...I suppose it depends on what they decide to do, what they mandate, and what the source of it is (Mayor, Governor, Legislature, the Bench, the health department...etc.)

Edited by JohnsonJones

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3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Utah enforces wearing a seatbelt...doesn't it?

Does it?  I guess it also enforces purchasing car insurance?  Is the seatbelt mandate to keep you from dying or is it to prevent rising cost of car insurance?  Does it mandate buying a car?

Edited by anatess2

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6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Utah enforces wearing a seatbelt...doesn't it?

Yes... and admittedly I always found that weird 

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Guest MormonGator
7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Utah enforces wearing a seatbelt...doesn't it?

 

A seatbelt keeps you from dying, wearing a mask might keep the rest of us from dying. 

But, for the record, I'm against seat belt laws too, more or less. That said, you getting into a car accident and getting paralyzed from the neck down does effect more than just you. It's a selfish and destructive choice. You choosing not to wear a seatbelt requires doctors to work on your selfish body aside from someone who just had a heart attack or something else beyond their control. 

Just like not wearing a mask, actually. 

Edited by MormonGator

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https://www.ksl.com/article/50000084/utah-legislative-leaders-call-for-voluntary-mask-wearing-instead-of-state-mandate-ahead-of-herbert-decision

From the article:

Quote

Summit and Salt Lake Counties — the only two in the state with mask requirements — emphasize the orders are not intended to be punitive. Enforcement of the rule is focused on education followed by warnings and fines, not arrests.

So, it looks like as long as you can afford unlimited fines, you are good to go mask free!  💲
What are they going to do to you if you refuse to pay the fines? 

Edited by Plein Air

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10 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Do you think conservatives will riot and loot over being forced to wear a mask? 

Um, no. Sort of a weak attempt at humor I guess. 

It isn't the conservatives I can easily see going ballistic and hurting people over mask mandates......

Edited by Plein Air

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12 minutes ago, Plein Air said:

Um, no. Sort of a weak attempt at humor I guess. 

 It isn't the conservatives I can easily see going ballistic and hurting people over mask mandates......

No worries. Sorry I missed the joke. 

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On 7/8/2020 at 9:31 PM, MormonGator said:

107667973_2675192846084087_5975363289193213499_n.jpg

 

I'm going to answer this even if this is not the point of GOVERNMENT MANDATED masks.  @JohnsonJones and @Midwest LDS might also want to take note.

DOCTOR Glaucomflecken, if he is a REAL doctor, would know that mask regulations have been in place since forever and a day in Medical Offices as well as non-medical facilities as OSHA guidelines.

You can go to the OSHA website if you like and read up on their mask regulations.   Here's some excerpts:

Facemask—A loose-fitting, disposable device that creates a physical barrier between the mouth and nose of the wearer and potential contaminants in the immediate environment. Facemasks may be labeled as surgical, laser, isolation, dental, or medical procedure masks and are cleared by the FDA for marketing. They may come with or without a face shield. Facemasks do not seal tightly to the wearer’s face, do not provide the wearer with a reliable level of protection from inhaling smaller airborne particles, and are not considered respiratory protection.

Respirators are designed and regulated to provide a known level of protection when used within the context of a comprehensive and effective respiratory protection program (see the “Types of Respiratory Protection” section on page 15). For example, filtering facepiece respirators are designed to seal tightly to the face when the proper model and size is selected for the individual by using a fit test procedure. The wearer can then be assured that inhaled air is forced through the filtering material, which allows contaminants to be captured and reduces exposure to both large droplets and small infectious particles.

Here's an article comprised of facemask studies from 1946 to 2018:  https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

Excerpt:

Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

 

Here's a study on reusable cloth face masks versus disposable surgical mask back in 2015 that shows cloth masks is 95% ineffective:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/

Excerpt:

The rates of all infection outcomes were highest in the cloth mask arm, with the rate of ILI statistically significantly higher in the cloth mask arm (relative risk (RR)=13.00, 95% CI 1.69 to 100.07) compared with the medical mask arm. 

The results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. 

 

Summary:

Is summary - to protect a wearer or the patient from the Flu Vrius - you need a RESPIRATOR.  Surgical masks  only protect you and others from diseases carried by body fluids.  Cloth face masks are NOT HEALTHY.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

@MormonGator, @JohnsonJones, @Midwest LDS:

And here's another one:

 

You do realize I wear a mask because of recommendations from medical experts not politicians right? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/about-face-coverings.html. When a majority of doctors tell me it's not helpful I'll stop wearing one. Oh and using a video of AOC means nothing to me. I'm a conservative. 

Edited by Midwest LDS

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22 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

You do realize I wear a mask because of recommendations from medical experts not politicians right? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/about-face-coverings.html. When a majority of doctors tell me it's not helpful I'll stop wearing one. Oh and using a video of AOC means nothing to me. I'm a conservative. 

Oh yeah... "majority" of doctors also claim gender differences is a social construct... and prepubescent hormone therapy is awesome... and hydrochloroquine will kill you.... and rambunctious boys should take ritalin...

And just so you know... new boxes of surgical masks itself has a caution - will not prevent corona virii.

And here's a logic question - if homemade masks prevent transmission by (as falsely claimed) 80%... why are cities with mask ordinances from May still have comparable infection rates?  And why did cities release people out of prison instead of making prisoners wear masks?  And why are cities with mandated mask ordinances still put "non-essential" businesses and public parks and libraries on lock down?

And just because you're conservative does not make the point of "government mandates not followed by government personnel who demanded the mandate" disappear.

Nobody is telling you to stop wearing your mask.  We are telling you to stop gaslighting people who choose not to wear one.

Edited by anatess2

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