Jamie123

What would you have done if you'd seen the ark wobble?

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:)

Well, I definitely wouldn't have dived into the flood waters and tried to straighten it up.  I imagine it did FAR more than wobble when the rains came down.

 

(As far as the Ark of the covenant, with the instructions and restrictions, wait and see what happens.  Probably see some guy called Uzzah try to steady it instead.  The better idea was probably to try to secure the ark of the covenant more securely before transportation so that it would not have tilted like it might fall off the cart in the first place.

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I would hope I’d have had the spiritual sensitivity and foresight to have excused myself from the scene long before then.  Israel—from the top down—was messing up big time with what it was doing (see https://medium.com/@eriknmanning/was-god-being-cruel-for-striking-uzzah-dead-for-touching-the-ark-of-the-covenant-e54532f85326); and the fact that David pitched a hissy fit when Uzzah died only goes to show how far from God’s will—and how scripturally illiterate—he was.  Modern commentators are often so enamored of the secular power David wielded, that they are either blind to or gloss over the many poor choices David made and the sufferings his people endured as a result.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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5 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Serious question.

The natural man part of me would have wanted to try and steady it. I would hope my spiritual sensitivity would have been strong enough to resist that urge, all of the Israelites and especially the Levites knew God had said he would protect the Ark, but the flesh is often weak. But then that is the point of the story. We have to learn in life to avoid "steadying the ark" in situations where, just like Uzzah did, we "know" God's church is failing and we are the only one's who can fix it. I put know in quotation marks to represent that we are wrong but are convinced we are right. That's what makes ark steadying such a tempting sin and why the Lord was so clear in warning us against it.

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7 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

We have to learn in life to avoid "steadying the ark" in situations where, just like Uzzah did, we "know" God's church is failing and we are the only one's who can fix it.

True...but by that rule Martin Luther was "steadying the ark" too...as were all the Protestant reformers.

It's difficult for someone in Uzzah's position to see how things would pan out. Consider the same scene in a different universe:

And when they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, the oxen didst stumble, and Uzzah thought to reach out his hand to steady the ark upon its rickety wagon, for fear it would fall.

But then Uzzah, remembering God's promises, withdrew his hand.

And behold! The ark falleth to the ground and smasheth into many pieces, along with the stone tablets held within. And everyone was really embarrassed, especially those whose office it had been to use only the best of ropes, tie goodly knots and make sure the wagon was in good order.

But notwithstanding the manifold grannies and frayed ropes, and the pitiful condition of the wheels (one of which misseth several spokes) the Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah. And he struck him down, and he died there beside what remained of the ark of God, the cherubim (neither of which now hath a complete set of wings) and the precious stone tablets.

Later in heaven, the Lord sayeth unto Uzzah, "Wherefore alloweth thee my lovely ark to smasheth to pieces upon the threshing floor of Nakon? All it needeth was one hand of thine to steady it!"

And Uzzah replyeth in complete bewilderment "But Lord, didst thou not promise to protect the ark?"

"Verily I did," sayeth the Lord. "But wherefore supposeth thee that I arranged for you to be present at that exact spot where the ark didst wobble?

"Well surely," quoth Uzzah. "Thy humble servant could not presume to be thy instrument in bringing thy promises to fruition!"

"For goodness sake!" sayeth the Lord, who now becometh quite irritated. "It's not rocket science is it? No one asketh thee to write ninety five theses and lead a Protestant Reformation! All I expecteth of thee is that thou useth one hand to steady the ark over the bumps. Canst I not expect a bit of common sense?"

Edited by Jamie123
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2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

True...but by that rule Martin Luther was "steadying the ark" too...as were all the Protestant reformers.

It's difficult for someone in Uzzah's position to see how things would pan out. Consider the same scene in a different universe:

And when they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, the oxen didst stumble, and Uzzah thought to reach out his hand to steady the ark upon its rickety wagon, for fear it would fall.

But then Uzzah, remembering God's promises, withdrew his hand.

And behold! The ark falleth to the ground and smasheth into many pieces, along with the stone tablets held within. And everyone was really embarrassed, especially those whose office it had been to use only the best of ropes, tie goodly knots and make sure the wagon was in good order.

But notwithstanding the manifold grannies and frayed ropes, and the pitiful condition of the wheels (one of which misseth several spokes) the Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah. And he struck him down, and he died there beside what remained of the ark of God, the cherubim (neither of which now hath a complete set of wings) and the precious stone tablets.

Later in heaven, the Lord sayeth unto Uzzah, "Wherefore alloweth thee my lovely ark to smasheth to pieces upon the threshing floor of Nakon? All it needeth was one hand of thine to steady it!"

And Uzzah replyeth in complete bewilderment "But Lord, didst thou not promise to protect the ark?"

"Verily I did," sayeth the Lord. "But wherefore supposeth thee that I arranged for you to be present at that exact spot where the ark didst wobble?

"Well surely," quoth Uzzah. "Thy humble servant could not presume to be thy instrument in bringing thy promises to fruition!"

"For goodness sake!" sayeth the Lord, who now becometh quite irritated. "It's not rocket science is it? No one asketh thee to write ninety five theses and lead a Protestant Reformation! All I expecteth of thee is that thou useth one hand to steady the ark over the bumps. Canst I not expect a bit of common sense?"

You really don't know what was actually going on, do you?  This is almost straight out of the FFR website.

Are you perhaps a fan of "Dark Matter"?

Edited by Carborendum

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

You really don't know what was actually going on, do you?  This is almost straight out of the FFR website.

Are you perhaps a fan of "Dark Matter"?

I have to confess, I don't. What is FFR? And what is Dark Matter?

P.S. You mean about the ark having been returned from the Philistines, after it caused them so much trouble? OK - I'd forgotten that part of the story. But I still don't know what you mean by "FFR" and "Dark Matter".

P.P.S. I'm still trying to work out what you mean. You're referring perhaps to the fact that it was the Philistines (and not the Israelites) who provided the wagon to return the ark - which makes a bit of a nonsense of part of what I said? If so, my bad...I should perhaps re-read these stories before "trying to be clever" about them. But I still don't know what FFR is. "Fractional Flow Reserve"? "French Rugby Federation"? "Franciscan Friars of the Renewal"?

Edited by Jamie123

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2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

True...but by that rule Martin Luther was "steadying the ark" too...as were all the Protestant reformers.

It's difficult for someone in Uzzah's position to see how things would pan out. Consider the same scene in a different universe:

And when they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, the oxen didst stumble, and Uzzah thought to reach out his hand to steady the ark upon its rickety wagon, for fear it would fall.

But then Uzzah, remembering God's promises, withdrew his hand.

And behold! The ark falleth to the ground and smasheth into many pieces, along with the stone tablets held within. And everyone was really embarrassed, especially those whose office it had been to use only the best of ropes, tie goodly knots and make sure the wagon was in good order.

But notwithstanding the manifold grannies and frayed ropes, and the pitiful condition of the wheels (one of which misseth several spokes) the Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah. And he struck him down, and he died there beside what remained of the ark of God, the cherubim (neither of which now hath a complete set of wings) and the precious stone tablets.

Later in heaven, the Lord sayeth unto Uzzah, "Wherefore alloweth thee my lovely ark to smasheth to pieces upon the threshing floor of Nakon? All it needeth was one hand of thine to steady it!"

And Uzzah replyeth in complete bewilderment "But Lord, didst thou not promise to protect the ark?"

"Verily I did," sayeth the Lord. "But wherefore supposeth thee that I arranged for you to be present at that exact spot where the ark didst wobble?

"Well surely," quoth Uzzah. "Thy humble servant could not presume to be thy instrument in bringing thy promises to fruition!"

"For goodness sake!" sayeth the Lord, who now becometh quite irritated. "It's not rocket science is it? No one asketh thee to write ninety five theses and lead a Protestant Reformation! All I expecteth of thee is that thou useth one hand to steady the ark over the bumps. Canst I not expect a bit of common sense?"

I understand where you are coming from and I don't hate or mock Uzzah by any means. He made a mistake I could easily see myself making in a similar situation. However, he still made a mistake, hence the punishment from God.

And it depends on who you ask about ark steadying with Martin Luther. If I were to ask a Catholic, I bet they'd say Martin made a huge mistake that shattered the church due to his own arrogance😊. Now Protestants and myself look at it differently of course, and in many churches I would agree that this would be a tough question to pose about when you should intervene and when you shouldn't. But in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as you know we believe our Prophet and 12 Apostles are the literal mouthpieces of Christ. When we try to "fix a problem" or '"steady the ark", if we have a testimony, we are making the same mistake Uzzah did. We know God has said he can take care of his church, but we choose to disbelieve him because we "know" better. Doesn't mean we are anymore evil than Uzzah, but we would still be wrong. Of course you have to believe we are actually lead by prophets and apostles for that analogy to work, so I don't blame a non member for looking at it differently, but that's how we see it.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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3 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

And it depends on who you ask about ark steadying with Martin Luther. If I were to ask a Catholic, I bet they'd say Martin made a huge mistake that shattered the church due to his own arrogance😊. Now Protestants and myself look at it differently of course, and in many churches I would agree that this would be a tough question to pose about when you should intervene and when you shouldn't. But in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as you know we believe our Prophet and 12 Apostles are the literal mouthpieces of Christ. When we try to "fix a problem" or '"steady the ark", if we have a testimony, we are making the same mistake Uzzah did. We know God has said he can take care of his church, but we choose to disbelieve him because we "know" better. Doesn't mean we are anymore evil than Uzzah, but we would still be wrong. Of course you have to believe we are actually lead by prophets and apostles for that analogy to work, so I don't blame a non member for looking at it differently, but that's how we see it.

Perhaps @anatess2 can provide some insights on how Catholics view Luther. But having thought about it a bit, I wonder if perhaps it's a case of people being judged according to their lights. Luther no longer saw the Pope as infallible, so there was no "ark" for him to steady when he posted his 95 theses. Similarly the Philistines did not immediately drop dead when they took away the ark, because for them it was just a foreign religious artifact*. Uzzah, having been brought up to know exactly what you can and cannot do with the ark, should have known better.

P.S. How do I make it so that Anatess' name gets highlighted and she gets a notification that I've mentioned her? I've seen people do that so many times on this forum, but could never see how it was done.

P.P.S. * I suppose it was also God's plan that the ark should go into captivity - which would hardly have happened if the Philistines who took it away immediately dropped dead. By the same token, perhaps it was also God's plan that Uzzah should drop dead as a warning to anyone else who thought of trifling with what was holy. Scary thought.

Edited by Jamie123

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2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Perhaps @anatess2 can provide some insights on how Catholics view Luther. But having thought about it a bit, I wonder if perhaps it's a case of people being judged according to their lights. Luther no longer saw the Pope as infallible, so there was no "ark" for him to steady when he posted his 95 theses. Similarly the Philistines did not immediately drop dead when they took away the ark, because for them it was just a foreign religious artifact*. Uzzah, having been brought up to know exactly what you can and cannot do with the ark, should have known better.

P.S. How do I make it so that Anatess' name gets highlighted and she gets a notification that I've mentioned her? I've seen people do that so many times on this forum, but could never see how it was done.

P.P.S. * I suppose it was also God's plan that the ark should go into captivity - which would hardly have happened if the Philistines who took it away immediately dropped dead. By the same token, perhaps it was also God's plan that Uzzah should drop dead as a warning to anyone else who thought of trifling with what was holy. Scary thought.

@anatess2

When you type '@' followed by some characters you should get a dropdown. If you select the name from the dropdown you get the tagging. If not, you get plain text.

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2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Perhaps @anatess2 can provide some insights on how Catholics view Luther. But having thought about it a bit, I wonder if perhaps it's a case of people being judged according to their lights. Luther no longer saw the Pope as infallible, so there was no "ark" for him to steady when he posted his 95 theses. Similarly the Philistines did not immediately drop dead when they took away the ark, because for them it was just a foreign religious artifact*. Uzzah, having been brought up to know exactly what you can and cannot do with the ark, should have known better.

Well... Luther is basically Uzzah.  He had good intentions but because he did not bring his intentions to fruition within God's order was plagued by his conscience as he witnessed until his dying breath the unintended chaos - political, cultural, and religious - he caused.  @Carborendum might agree with me that Luther is like Sanderson's Lord Ruler, trying to steady the ark using his own wisdom by trying to bend the heavens to his will and harvesting ash and soot and blood instead as he stumbles from irascible foible to foible.

The days of Luther is pretty much reflected in today's progressive movement... using theses instead of tweets.

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10 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I have to confess, I don't. What is FFR? And what is Dark Matter?

P.S. You mean about the ark having been returned from the Philistines, after it caused them so much trouble? OK - I'd forgotten that part of the story. But I still don't know what you mean by "FFR" and "Dark Matter".

P.P.S. I'm still trying to work out what you mean. You're referring perhaps to the fact that it was the Philistines (and not the Israelites) who provided the wagon to return the ark - which makes a bit of a nonsense of part of what I said? If so, my bad...I should perhaps re-read these stories before "trying to be clever" about them. But I still don't know what FFR is. "Fractional Flow Reserve"? "French Rugby Federation"? "Franciscan Friars of the Renewal"?

I'm not positive of @Carborendum intent, but if I had to guess, it would be the Freedom From Religion (FFR) groups.  They have the slant that Uzzah's death showed something different and that an all knowing deity which was merciful would have done something different than what occurred.

Their ideas differ as they take modern chasis of what they feel is moral and try to apply it to an ancient story which is more than just a story, but also a symobology of man's relationship with deity and how man should act in accordance with deific or religious oversight.

As for Dark Matter, I'm not sure of it's relationship to this.  I know in Astrophysics there is an idea called Dark Matter.  It affects much of the theories of gravity and how gravity differs in what appears in our sight of the space beyond our hemisphere, and what we do not see out there.  Far more to it than that, but I'm not sure how it relates.

There IS a show that I know my son-in-law has on their shelf called Dark Matter (DVD or Blu-ray or something like that) and it may also be in relation to that.  I haven't watched the show so I don't know what relation it has to the story either, except that I think it is also a science fiction show of some sort.

Those are my best guesses.

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On 7/15/2020 at 6:15 AM, Jamie123 said:

I have to confess, I don't. What is FFR? And what is Dark Matter?

P.S. You mean about the ark having been returned from the Philistines, after it caused them so much trouble? OK - I'd forgotten that part of the story. But I still don't know what you mean by "FFR" and "Dark Matter".

P.P.S. I'm still trying to work out what you mean. You're referring perhaps to the fact that it was the Philistines (and not the Israelites) who provided the wagon to return the ark - which makes a bit of a nonsense of part of what I said? If so, my bad...I should perhaps re-read these stories before "trying to be clever" about them. But I still don't know what FFR is. "Fractional Flow Reserve"? "French Rugby Federation"? "Franciscan Friars of the Renewal"?

FFR = Freedom From Religion foundation.  They've made it an effort to point out stories like this (quite out of context) and "put God on trial".

Dark Matter is... "a source" ... of people making fun of stuff like this about religion in general, but most conspicuously about the Judeo-Christian God.  Your sarcastic comments about how Uzzah would have responded is actually something that they did.

As far as background, this is what I meant.

All of Israel had already been very wicked and prideful.  They had been warned many times that they were falling off the path. But they continued down the road of sacrilege and treating the Ark as if it was a vending machine for God's blessings and protection.

The Ark was supposed to be carried on a litter -- by MEN, not oxen.  This was a final straw.

Whenever God does something this harsh it is ALWAYS after an extended period of granting much mercy.  But narratives like yours focus on the last domino of punishment that fell -- never the first 489 dominoes of mercy before it.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Dark Matter is... "a source" ... of people making fun of stuff like this about religion in general, but most conspicuously about the Judeo-Christian God.  Your sarcastic comments about how Uzzah would have responded is actually something that they did.

Interesting - I've never heard of "Dark Matter" (in that context - I guessed you weren't talking about astronomy). My "sarcastic comments" (as you call them) were intended as a kind of Adrian Plass pastiche. Plass - probably my favourite Christian writer after C.S. Lewis - sometimes does comical rewrites of scriptures to make them conform to certain "Christian" attitudes that he finds questionable: for example, we have the version of the Prodigal Son, where the father says: "Too right I'll make thee as one of my hired men! Thou shalt from henceforth be third assistant bog cleaner!" 

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

All of Israel had already been very wicked and prideful.  They had been warned many times that they were falling off the path. But they continued down the road of sacrilege and treating the Ark as if it was a vending machine for God's blessings and protection.

A "holy vending machine" - I like that analogy! "Let's bring the ark to the battle! Then we can't lose!"

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

The Ark was supposed to be carried on a litter -- by MEN, not oxen.  This was a final straw.

Whenever God does something this harsh it is ALWAYS after an extended period of granting much mercy.  But narratives like yours focus on the last domino of punishment that fell -- never the first 489 dominoes of mercy before it.

That's very interesting. I still think it was rather hard on Uzzah though - it wasn't like he was personally responsible for all the naughtiness of his nation. But I guess the same could be said of Ananias and Saphira, Lot's wife, the two sons of Aaron who got fried in the Tent of Meeting...and a lot of other people besides. God is very mysterious.

P.S. I think Luke 13:4 may have some relevance here.

Edited by Jamie123

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

But they continued down the road of sacrilege and treating the Ark as if it was a vending machine for God's blessings and protection.

Though perhaps "vending machine" doesn't quite work. After all, you need to put something into a vending machine in order to get something out. Maybe it was more like "the goose that laid the golden egg".

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On 7/14/2020 at 2:50 PM, Jamie123 said:

Serious question.

I would have stayed on board The Ark with the rest of the animals and weathered out the storm waiting for the Ark to stop wobbling.  😎  Mostly serious answer.

 

The Traveler

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