romans8

The Plan of Salvation

Recommended Posts

Hello,

I don't understand some things about the Plan of Salvation as described on your church
website.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/council-in-heaven?lang=eng

- In the premortal life, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present His plan for 
  our progression (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 209, 511). 
  We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; 
  we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have 
  spirit children just as He does (see Doctrine and Covenants 132:19–20).
  
- At this council we also learned that because of our weakness, all of us except little children 
  would sin (see Doctrine and Covenants 29:46–47).
  

From what I see, Heavenly Father's plan was to give mankind the opportunity for exaltation. Jesus
volunteered to be our Savior and give his life so that we could return to live with Heavenly 
Father.  Lucifer's plan was to deny mankind agency, meaning all would return to Heavenly Father's 
presence and none would be lost. But it doesn't appear an atonement was involved with Lucifer's 
option.

Did the choice of the one-third to follow Satan occur before or after Heavenly Father made his 
choice of whom to send?

Did they choose to follow Lucifer because a 100% success rate of returning back home appealed to 
them?  Or was there another reason?

Did Lucifer also sway angels to follow him in the rebellion?

Thank you,

Matteo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, romans8 said:

Hello,

I don't understand some things about the Plan of Salvation as described on your church
website.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/council-in-heaven?lang=eng

- In the premortal life, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present His plan for 
  our progression (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 209, 511). 
  We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; 
  we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have 
  spirit children just as He does (see Doctrine and Covenants 132:19–20).
  
- At this council we also learned that because of our weakness, all of us except little children 
  would sin (see Doctrine and Covenants 29:46–47).
  

From what I see, Heavenly Father's plan was to give mankind the opportunity for exaltation. Jesus
volunteered to be our Savior and give his life so that we could return to live with Heavenly 
Father.  Lucifer's plan was to deny mankind agency, meaning all would return to Heavenly Father's 
presence and none would be lost. But it doesn't appear an atonement was involved with Lucifer's 
option.

Did the choice of the one-third to follow Satan occur before or after Heavenly Father made his 
choice of whom to send?

Did they choose to follow Lucifer because a 100% success rate of returning back home appealed to 
them?  Or was there another reason?

Did Lucifer also sway angels to follow him in the rebellion?

Thank you,

Matteo

For as much as we know about the pre-existence there is more we do not know.

Many of your question about exact details we do not know.

However lets clarify come misunderstandings you do have.  I make all kinds of plans... and I usually find out very quickly that they will not work.  While we are commonly told that Satan had a plan.. everything we seen and learn at are taught tells us his plan would not work.  Thus Satan has a plan but there is every indication that his "promises" were lies.

For those that followed him everything points to them having full Light and Truth and choosing to embrace and side with Darkness and Lies.  Why does anyone one do that?.. I have no idea but people do all the time. 

Finally angels are not a different type or class in the Restored Gospel theology.  They are simply people like us but in a Pre-Mortal or Post Mortal state, who have an assignment to do something among mortals.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, romans8 said:

Hello,

I don't understand some things about the Plan of Salvation as described on your church
website.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/council-in-heaven?lang=eng

- In the premortal life, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present His plan for 
  our progression (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 209, 511). 
  We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; 
  we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have 
  spirit children just as He does (see Doctrine and Covenants 132:19–20).
  
- At this council we also learned that because of our weakness, all of us except little children 
  would sin (see Doctrine and Covenants 29:46–47).
  

From what I see, Heavenly Father's plan was to give mankind the opportunity for exaltation. Jesus
volunteered to be our Savior and give his life so that we could return to live with Heavenly 
Father.  Lucifer's plan was to deny mankind agency, meaning all would return to Heavenly Father's 
presence and none would be lost. But it doesn't appear an atonement was involved with Lucifer's 
option.

1) Did the choice of the one-third to follow Satan occur before or after Heavenly Father made his 
choice of whom to send?

2) Did they choose to follow Lucifer because a 100% success rate of returning back home appealed to 
them?  Or was there another reason?

3) Did Lucifer also sway angels to follow him in the rebellion?

Thank you,

Matteo

1) Christ was always the chosen Son of God. There was no “before” then. 

2)  A person could easily assume as much  

3) I echo estradling75 ‘S well worded answer 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, romans8 said:

Hello,

I don't understand some things about the Plan of Salvation as described on your church
website.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/council-in-heaven?lang=eng

- In the premortal life, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present His plan for 
  our progression (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 209, 511). 
  We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; 
  we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have 
  spirit children just as He does (see Doctrine and Covenants 132:19–20).
  
- At this council we also learned that because of our weakness, all of us except little children 
  would sin (see Doctrine and Covenants 29:46–47).
  

From what I see, Heavenly Father's plan was to give mankind the opportunity for exaltation. Jesus
volunteered to be our Savior and give his life so that we could return to live with Heavenly 
Father.  Lucifer's plan was to deny mankind agency, meaning all would return to Heavenly Father's 
presence and none would be lost. But it doesn't appear an atonement was involved with Lucifer's 
option.

Did the choice of the one-third to follow Satan occur before or after Heavenly Father made his 
choice of whom to send?

Did they choose to follow Lucifer because a 100% success rate of returning back home appealed to 
them?  Or was there another reason?

Did Lucifer also sway angels to follow him in the rebellion?

Thank you,

Matteo

Some have already responded.  Isaiah tells us that revelation comes to us line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.  We learn principles of truth that can only lighten a small portion of our path, way or journey.  We must exercise faith and then receive more light and intelligence.  And so we cycle having heard the "word" to exercise faith to receive more revelation - and so on and so one.

I will explain using my understanding.  Before we were born we existed as spirit beings with our Father in Heaven.  We called G-d our Father because he gave a birth to our spirits of  "Light" and "Truth".   But there can be no Light without Darkness and no Truth without Lies.  The first step in G-d's plan of salvation as given in scripture was to introduce and give Light.   A careful reading of Genesis would imply that darkness already existed.  The next step in the plan of salvation was a separating of Light from Darkness.

Light is a good thing but Darkness is not good.  And so we learn that before our earth was made that G-d taught his spirit "Children" Light and Truth.  Often in scripture Children are a designation of covenant.  Being spiritually born we become through covenant the Children of G-d.  A son of G-d is someone who has covenant with G-d.  Likewise a daughter of G-d is a woman that has covenant with G-d.

G-d is a G-d of Light and Truth - sometimes this is expressed as the "Living" G-d because life or living is existing with Light and Truth.  Death then is defined as existing without Light and Truth - which by definition is Darkness and Lies.  Because G-d is the G-d of Truth and Light - the only means to receive Light and Truth is through covenant with G-d.  But we can obtain Darkness and Lies all by ourselves without any help.  So it was that G-d taught us Light and Truth.  The more Light and Truth we obtain the more we become like G-d who is a being of Light and Truth.

Among the spirits that made covenant with G-d and so became his Children and heirs of G-d, there were some that remained attached to Darkness and Lies.  The champion of Darkness was a covenant spirit son known as Lucifer (that means bearer of Light) which is an obvious Lie.  Lucifer became Satan because of his effort to subdue G-d the Father and all his Children by seducing all he could with Darkness and Lies.  We are told in scripture that the Kingdom of Heaven was divided and that there was a war initiated between Light and Darkness.  It is interesting to me that we are told that a third part were seduced by Darkness and Lies.  This means that the Kingdom was divided into 3 parts - some think the parts are comprised of equal numbers but that is not my understanding.  It is also interesting to note that mankind on earth were divided into 3 parts through the sons of Noah.  This is where the concept of Gentiles was established.

We are told that Jesus Christ is the "first born".  This means the most noble and great  or the greatest champion of Light and Truth among the spirit Children of G-d.  It is important to realize that Christ is the Greek word that matches the Hebrew word - Messiah and both mean the anointed one.  In order for there to be a Christ or Messiah - mankind would fall from Light into Darkness.  This fall is symbolically taught to us through the saga of Eden and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  The knowledge of Good is to be saved from evil and sin (which is death) through the atonement of Christ which is the resurrection.  The knowledge of Evil (Darkness) was the fall from Light into Darkness (where we are subject to Satan).  I believe it is important to note that all was a process of choice which we call Agency.

I believe that there is no chance but that all things are a matter of choice.  We all chose through agency to partake of Death and the Atonement or Resurrection that we may know by experience the good (Light) from evil (Darkness).  I also believe that one day we will stand before G-d and account for our choice (agency) to embrace Light or Darkness.

I will also express I have found no other doctrine in any other religion that does not blame G-d, at least to some degree, for the existence of Darkness and Lies (death).    The plan of salvation is the resurrection - not just of our physical bodies but of our spirit unto Light and Truth.  With Light and Truth is the intelligence and power of G-d.  Which we must obtain by covenant and discipline (note that the word discipline and disciple have the same root meaning).  The greatest gift of G-d is our agency to choose Light and Truth or Darkness and Lies.  This is what is meant by G-d being Just.  That is the Justice of G-d is our agency to choose - so that all we experience is our agency and choice.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, romans8 said:

Did the choice of the one-third to follow Satan occur before or after Heavenly Father made his 
choice of whom to send?

Did they choose to follow Lucifer because a 100% success rate of returning back home appealed to 
them?  Or was there another reason?

Did Lucifer also sway angels to follow him in the rebellion?

Thank you,

Matteo

A choice can only be made only after the options are set forth. The options to follow Christ or Satan were so eternally significant that a war in heaven ensued. Those who chose Satan in that war loved and/or believed him more or rather than God, just as happens here on earth where the war continues. He uses many if not all of the same strategies and tactics here as he did there, except we are now in the flesh without a memory of our pre-mortal life. Regarding angels, yes, Lucifer swayed the pre-mortal spirit children of God to follow him (see https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/angels?lang=eng ) just as he does the embodied spirit of children of God here in mortality where the war continues.

Edited by CV75

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, romans8 said:

Did the choice of the one-third to follow Satan occur before or after Heavenly Father made his 
choice of whom to send?

27  And the Lord said: Whom shall I send?  And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me.  And another answered and said: Here am I, send me.  And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28  And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

(Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 3:27 - 28)

11 hours ago, romans8 said:

Did Lucifer also sway angels to follow him in the rebellion?

8  O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace!  For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9  And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 9:8 - 9)

11 hours ago, romans8 said:

Did they choose to follow Lucifer because a 100% success rate of returning back home appealed to 
them?  Or was there another reason?

Parts of the Book of Mormon suggest that one of the main motivations for people to follow the devil is so that they can get power and gain. Perhaps, I don't really know for sure, but perhaps this was one of the reasons why some chose to follow Lucifer in the pre-existence.

16  And they were kept up by the power of the devil to administer these oaths unto the people, to keep them in darkness, to help such as sought power to gain power, and to murder, and to plunder, and to lie, and to commit all manner of wickedness and whoredoms.

(Book of Mormon | Ether 8:16)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/26/2020 at 12:54 PM, estradling75 said:

However lets clarify come misunderstandings you do have.  I make all kinds of plans... and I usually find out very quickly that they will not work.  While we are commonly told that Satan had a plan.. everything we seen and learn at are taught tells us his plan would not work.  Thus Satan has a plan but there is every indication that his "promises" were lies.

Was it God's desire to have Eve eat from the forbidden tree so He devised a plan for them to become mortal, or
was it part of Satan's plan in order to spoil God's creation?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, romans8 said:

Was it God's desire to have Eve eat from the forbidden tree so He devised a plan for them to become mortal, or
was it part of Satan's plan in order to spoil God's creation?

The tree is a means, not an end in and of itself.  In LDS theology the tree a) made a person mortal, and b) made a person aware of the nature of sin and opposites generally (God’s plan isn’t for us to sin, but it is for us to learn the difference between sin and righteousness and experience the spiritual growth that comes from choosing righteousness in an informed way).  God always intended that both of these elements should be features of our time on earth (see 2 Nephi, chapter 2 and Alma, chapters 40-42 in the Book of Mormon).

We aren’t given a lot of detail about why Satan encouraged Adam and Eve to take the fruit, other than that he “knew not the mind of God” (Moses 4:6, from the “Pearl of Great Price”).  I rather suspect that Satan was trying to buy their allegiance by offering them something that God the Father had, at least temporarily, denied them.  But I can’t support that with any express statement in scripture.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, romans8 said:

Was it God's desire to have Eve eat from the forbidden tree so He devised a plan for them to become mortal, or
was it part of Satan's plan in order to spoil God's creation?

Unlike me, and everyone else God is Perfect, All Wise, and All Knowing.  This is a standard Christian belief.  But then a lot of Christian read the creation story and think that this Perfect, All Wise, All Knowing God's plan went off the rails right out the gate, and that Christ being the Savior is some kind of Plan B.  This idea makes no kind of logical, rational, reasonable or scriptural sense.  God's plan must have clearly have been designed to handle sin or He is not Perfect, All Wise and All Knowing.  Thus the plan was for them and us to become mortal.

However this conclusion can lead to another flawed line of reasoning.  That God's plan that can "Handle" sin, some how "Required" sin.  This is a very dangerous line of thinking that in some how or in some way God wants us or wanted anyone or worse required any one to Sin.  In the Garden of Eden Adam did sin and did disobey God.  And God's plan handled it perfectly.  A lot of revelation had been given on this subject. Now some have speculated on what would have happened had Adam and Eve Obeyed God and not sinned. That is not what happened so we do not know.  Now modern revelation does tell us what would have happened had Adam and Eve remained in the Garden.  But the idea that God's plan would have been thwarted by "Obedience" is just as ludicrous as it being thwarted by "Sin"  We simply do not know how the Plan would have used the "Obedience" of Adam and Eve to bring to pass the Mortality of Man and get them out of the Garden, because that is not what happened.  We see and know how the Plan used the "Sin" of Adam and Eve brought to pass the Mortality of Man and get them out.  

 

Edited by estradling75

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, romans8 said:

Was it God's desire to have Eve eat from the forbidden tree so He devised a plan for them to become mortal, or
was it part of Satan's plan in order to spoil God's creation?

The fall was indeed part of God's plan for His children. But it was not something He could justly thrust upon them. So the conditions were set for it to happen naturally. As @Just_A_Guy referenced Satan didn't fully understand God's plan and in his attempt to sabotage or subvert it seemingly played right into God's hands. To expand that Moses 4:6 reference we are taught: "for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world." We don't know if simply having them eat the fruit was Satan's whole plan or just the first step in a more elaborate scheme but we do know what wrecking the plan of salvation was his goal. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, romans8 said:

Was it God's desire to have Eve eat from the forbidden tree so He devised a plan for them to become mortal, or
was it part of Satan's plan in order to spoil God's creation?

It is my understanding that G-d planned a way by which we could choose by our agency to have knowledge of good (life, light and intelligence through the atonement and resurrection of Christ) and evil (death and lies through a fall from grace).  But I see the garden epoch as a marriage covenant between Adam and Eve to accomplish this not as individuals but together.  The plan of Satan and his great lie was to divide Adam and Eve so that they would not make the choice together.   And so to this day Satan continues to divide the man from the woman.  It is the order of G-d that man is made complete or perfect in the woman and that the woman is made complete or perfect in the man.  Satan's lie is to drive a separation to prevent them from completing each other.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Traveler said:

The plan of Satan and his great lie was to divide Adam and Eve so that they would not make the choice together. 

How did Satan try to divide them so they would not make the choice together? And what choice are you referring to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, romans8 said:

How did Satan try to divide them so they would not make the choice together? And what choice are you referring to?

To partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil - which was the pivotal and most important decision they could possibly make while in Eden.  He tempted them (through the serpent - which BTW is a critically important symbol) to make a choice individually without consulting the other.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, romans8 said:

Was it God's desire to have Eve eat from the forbidden tree so He devised a plan for them to become mortal, or
was it part of Satan's plan in order to spoil God's creation?

I'm not sure...but I can give some reasonable guesses...

It was in the plan for the events that happened TO happen.  Just like everything that happens on this earth is also planned.  The deaths of millions from war, disease, and famine...all planned.  The crimes that are committed and the terrible things that happen...all planned.

Why?

I believe in a pre-existence...and we were in on the planning of this earth and the things that will happen.  We were given free agency, even before this life.  Because of that, we could chart the course for the way our lives would work.

Some of us thought some types of experiences would help us learn things, and planned accordingly.  Others wanted certain rewards, or perhaps only cared to get to a certain level of reward and thus planned to experience this life with that goal in mind.  Others, just wanted to have the freedom in this life to do as they desired. 

Overseeing this all was our Father.  He knew exactly what was planned, but he had given us free agency so that we could choose good and evil, even back then.  He could see what our desires were and how other's choices would influence what happened to us, and he and our Savior can judge us accordingly.

Thus, he knew before what was going to happen in the Garden of Eden.  However, he did not influence it in that way to prevent us or force us (or, Adam and Eve in this instance) to do something.  It was entirely left up to them and their choice.  Even if HE knew what was going to happen, he GAVE THEM their free agency to do as they wish.  He even went further than he does at times in other situations and even WARNED them what would happen if they ate the fruit.  However, he let them have their own choice and freedom.

Many of the bad things that happen in this life he probably already knows fully well will happen and the results.  He does not interfere because he has given man their free agency to choose what they want.  If he interfered, it is possible in that effect, in some way, he is affecting the free agency of man to actually make the choice and to choose what they desire, rather than what he desires.

The adversary, not knowing (or perhaps knowing, I'm not sure, perhaps he knew, but he also knows it is the only way for him to create havoc and conflict in this world as well) wanted to cause Adam and Eve to transgress the laws of the Lord, and thus his temptation for them to take eat the fruit.  He had only evil designs in his soul, and he was trying to further these evil designs.  It was part of his plan to get Adam and Eve to take of the fruit as well, because he felt it would further his own plans.

Edited by JohnsonJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/15/2020 at 7:39 AM, romans8 said:

Was it God's desire to have Eve eat from the forbidden tree so He devised a plan for them to become mortal, or
was it part of Satan's plan in order to spoil God's creation?

I thought to respond again to this question.  It is hard for me to justify that a G-d of intelligence, light, truth and justice would want his greatest creative accomplishment to remain eternally ignorant of any and all differences between good and evil.  Or, at the same time, forcing such knowledge.  Of course there was great eternal risk and consequence.   And so in his great wisdom and intelligence he made it possible that mankind could fall (fail) and thereby know for ourselves but with a safety net (the atonement) that all could safely repent and return to him that so desired.

As far as I know - the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only beacon directing the wisdom and love of G-d as the common thread of all things divine.  That G-d did not make a mistake placing Adam and Eve - with eternity in the balance and with his prophetic fore knowledge - to make the worse possible mistake.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now