Angels

[Jonah]

I found some teachings on the church's web site and from another site (from a former Catholic
who became a Latter-day Saint).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/angels?lang=eng

There are two kinds of beings in heaven who are called angels: those who are spirits and 
those who have bodies of flesh and bone. Angels who are spirits have not yet obtained a 
body of flesh and bone, or they are spirits who have once had a mortal body and are 
awaiting resurrection. Angels who have bodies of flesh and bone have either been resurrected 
from the dead or translated.

http://www.catholicldschristianity.com/angels_and_satan.html

Elder Bruce R. McConkie describes five specific types of angels in his book, Mormon Doctrine 
(1979 Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah, 35-37):

1] Pre-existent Spirits: These are the spirits of those who have not yet come to the earth. 
 
2] Spirits of Just Men Made Perfect: These are the spirits of those who have lived righteously 
on earth, have died, and are awaiting their Resurrection. These individuals are referred to as 
“just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-24). The visit of Gabriel to Zacharias and to Mary illustrates 
this kind of being. 
 
3] Translated Beings: These are translated beings that function as angels, as was the case with 
the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1–3).

The Apostle John was translated and became a ministering angel (John 21:22-23) 
 
4] Resurrected Personages: These are resurrected beings that serve as angels (Matt. 27:52-53). 
The appearances of Moroni and John the Baptist to Joseph Smith illustrate this type of angel. 
 
5] Righteous Mortal Men: These are holy men living on earth that are occasionally referred to as 
angels as they act as ministers for God such as those that appeared to Lot to warn him of the 
destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19).

From my Catholic faith, we believe Jesus Christ created the angel Lucifer.

In the LDS faith, are there angels who are beings but who are not procreated in a union between 
heavenly parents?   Did any of these angels join Lucifer in his rebellion?

[Just_A_Guy]

In LDS parlance, “angel” is a term that fundamentally describes a being’s current mission (usually, as a messenger; but sometimes it’s just a generic term for someone acting as a servant of God or ministering in His presence).  The word “angel” doesn’t tell us anything about what the being fundamentally is (i.e., the being’s physical nature).  Angels aren’t like Tolkien’s “Maiar”—demi-gods who occasionally assume human form for convenience.  Angels are in their very essence people, just like the rest of us.

So, to address your direct question:  every follower of Lucifer would have been a spiritual being (aka “preexistent spirit”), created by Heavenly Father and Mother.  To the extent that some of them may have been great and mighty servants of God before their falls, I suppose they (like Lucifer himself) might now be called “fallen angels”; but again—the term “angel” isn’t particularly useful here; since in one sense pretty much every spirit God ever created can probably be accurately described as an “angel” at some point in their past, present, or future. 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Just_A_Guy

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, Jonah said:

From my Catholic faith, we believe Jesus Christ created the angel Lucifer.

In the LDS faith, are there angels who are beings but who are not procreated in a union between 
heavenly parents?   Did any of these angels join Lucifer in his rebellion?

Catholic traditions/Tradition teach of some people being created / some not, and a whole bunch of different species* (God, humans, various angel classes, etc).  Besides God, all other persons had a time where they did not exist and then when they did.  Also in Catholic tradition, some persons have the right to choose, and some do not.

 

LDS beliefs are different.  A person is a person, no different species*.  All existed before this world was made, and before any recording of time (there's no time they didn't exist).   All have the right to choose.  It's actually super simple.  

 

@Jonah, if you want to engage in conversation here, that's always welcome.  

*"Species" = is a poor fitting word here, but it's the best I have.

[laronius]

19 hours ago, Jonah said:

.n the LDS faith, are there angels who are beings but who are not procreated in a union between heavenly parents?   Did any of these angels join Lucifer in his rebellion?

No there aren't any beings who were not "procreated" by our Heavenly Parents. All who fill the role of angel either will be or already have been born into this world as a human being, sons and daughters of God.

In general we only use the word angel to describe one sent by God. Though Satan has been known to appear AS an angel of light acting as an imposter. 

[dprh]

17 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

*"Species" = is a poor fitting word here, but it's the best I have.

I think "species" is a great word to use there.  Talking about humans and angels is like talking about caterpillars and butterflies.

[hzdbl5]

This doesn't add anything to the conversation (apologies in advance) but many years ago in Sunday School the teacher started off the lesson by asking, "has anyone here ever seen an angel?"  After a pause I raised my hand.  This caught the instructor by surprise.  After fumbling for a moment he asked when.  I replied, "every morning when I roll over."  I just ruined the morning for every other married man in the room......

[CV75]

23 hours ago, Jonah said:

In the LDS faith, are there angels who are beings but who are not procreated in a union between 
heavenly parents?   Did any of these angels join Lucifer in his rebellion?

No.

[Jonah]

On 8/7/2020 at 9:57 AM, laronius said:

No there aren't any beings who were not "procreated" by our Heavenly Parents. All who fill the role of angel either will be or already have been born into this world as a human being, sons and daughters of God.

In general we only use the word angel to describe one sent by God. Though Satan has been known to appear AS an angel of light acting as an imposter. 

In Job 38:7, who are the morning stars that are singing together while all the sons of God shouted for joy?

[Just_A_Guy]

8 minutes ago, Jonah said:

In Job 38:7, who are the morning stars that are singing together while all the sons of God shouted for joy?

What are the “doors of the sea” mentioned in the very next verse?

There’s such a thing as being overly literal with scripture; especially with a book like Job that is primarily intended as a meditative work of poetry/philosophy rather than “history” as we understand the term in the 21st century.

[laronius]

1 hour ago, Jonah said:

In Job 38:7, who are the morning stars that are singing together while all the sons of God shouted for joy?

It's very possible that this is just the literary use of personification. But I do think that a strong case could be made for these morning stars as being representative of certain individuals. The strongest evidence is Rev 22:16 where Christ refers to himself as "the bright and morning star." Even Lucifer is referred to as "a son of the morning" who desired to make his throne above the stars of God. I don't know of any official definition but my guess is that the morning stars are those who are or were in some position of authority in the kingdom of God. But we shouldn't overlook the importance of the first point as further exemplified in our D&C 128:23:

 23 Let the mountains shout for joy, and all ye valleys cry aloud; and all ye seas and dry lands tell the wonders of your Eternal King! And ye rivers, and brooks, and rills, flow down with gladness. Let the woods and all the trees of the field praise the Lord; and ye solid rocks weep for joy! And let the sun, moon, and the morning stars sing together, and let all the sons of God shout for joy! And let the eternal creations declare his name forever and ever! And again I say, how glorious is the voice we hear from heaven, proclaiming in our ears, glory, and salvation, and honor, and immortality, and eternal life; kingdoms, principalities, and powers!

[Jonah]

23 hours ago, laronius said:

But I do think that a strong case could be made for these morning stars as being representative of certain individuals.

What type of being are winged cherubims and seraphims?

[Jonah]

On 8/8/2020 at 11:40 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

What are the “doors of the sea” mentioned in the very next verse?

Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

Possibly a soil or rock boundary that limits where the waters of the sea could go.  Some imagery,
especially in Ezekiel and Daniel, is difficult to understand. 

[Just_A_Guy]

26 minutes ago, Jonah said:

What type of being are winged cherubims and seraphims?

Perhaps?  

[laronius]

4 hours ago, Jonah said:

What type of being are winged cherubims and seraphims?

The wings are symbolic in nature symbolising power, usually the power to move/travel as is often necessary for a messenger. I don't know of any official definition of who these angels are specifically but as with all angels they are simply sons and daughters of God filling an important responsibility. In fact, outside of beasts/animals, I don't know of any beings ever revealed to man other than the sons and daughters of God (just as you and I) and of course God himself. So if you come across a being in the scriptures it will fall into one of those categories.

[Traveler]

On 8/9/2020 at 11:23 AM, Jonah said:

What type of being are winged cherubims and seraphims?

I find it interesting that you have brought up Cherubim.  However, you have used the term incorrectly because Cherub is the singular and Cherubim is the plural - not Cherubims.  I would have to go back to notes and references for the initial Hebrew term.  Cherubim or Cherub is a Greek term that was used in the English versions of the Bible because there are no equivalent English terms for the translation.  I assume this is the same for the Latin versions of the Bible.  In ancient Greek a Cherub was a type of g-d - not a kind of angel.  

A couple of personal notes.  Cherubim in scripture almost always appear in pairs of two.  We also know from scripture that a Cherub is "Anointed" - which in the ancient Hebrew also means Messiah or in Greek means Christ.  Our first encounter with Cherubim is after Adam and Eve are exiled from Eden.  Many interpret scripture that the Cherubim prevent man from obtaining the Tree of Live.  But this is not quite what the scripture says.  It is the duty of the Cherubim to "Keep" the way to the Tree of Live.  Parallel to the concept of the way (or path) to the Tree of Life is the ancient "Mercy Seat" in the Tabernacle of Moses and later in the Temple of G-d.

Associated with with the Mercy Seat there are Cherubim (two which face each other) - I could reference an alternate reading of this that I obtained from a Jewish Rabbi - but you do not appear interest in textual Criticism and variant readings.  From scripture we learn that one Cherub is seated on the right and one is on the left before the thrown of G-d (Mercy Seat).  Generally Satan is thought to be the Cherub that sits at the left hand of G-d.  Who sits at the right hand of G-d?  According to Acts - Stephen saw a vision of Heaven and Jesus sitting at the right hand of G-d.

 

The Traveler

[Jonah]

On 8/11/2020 at 6:40 PM, Traveler said:

Generally Satan is thought to be the Cherub that sits at the left hand of G-d

When do you believe Satan was first seated on God's left?

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Jonah said:

When do you believe Satan was first seated on God's left?

I have no idea - I do not know of any reliable information to indicate and pure unfounded speculation seldom has much value.  But it is interesting what comes to us from antiquity about left and right handed people.  For example the word sinister meant left handed.  And the term ambidextrous  meant two right hands.  Symbolically the judgment of G-d is given as evil on the left and righteous on the right.  It is also interesting to me that in the New Testament Satan is referenced as "The G-d of this world".  I am not sure if that is a sarcastic reference or some other symbolic possibility - but for those that believe in unbending singular or literal meaning of scripture - this is problematic.  

You do have some interesting thoughts - but I sometimes wonder why you are posting on a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints web site with very little interest in diving deep into why our view of scripture and doctrine is unique (being the reason we exist as neither Catholic or Protestant.)

 

The Traveler

[Jonah]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have no idea - I do not know of any reliable information to indicate and pure unfounded speculation seldom has much value.  But it is interesting what comes to us from antiquity about left and right handed people.  For example the word sinister meant left handed.  And the term ambidextrous  meant two right hands.  Symbolically the judgment of G-d is given as evil on the left and righteous on the right.  It is also interesting to me that in the New Testament Satan is referenced as "The G-d of this world".  I am not sure if that is a sarcastic reference or some other symbolic possibility - but for those that believe in unbending singular or literal meaning of scripture - this is problematic.  

You do have some interesting thoughts - but I sometimes wonder why you are posting on a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints web site with very little interest in diving deep into why our view of scripture and doctrine is unique (being the reason we exist as neither Catholic or Protestant.)

 

The Traveler

If you have no idea when Satan was seated at God's left hand, how can you make that statement
that he was ever seated at His left side?  Was that just speculation based on some theory Jesus
and Lucifer were both angels before Jesus became a God?

As for Satan being referenced as a god of this world, it is not a sarcastic reference.  Moses was
also referred to as a god to Aaron.  But in these cases, god does not mean deity; it means someone
who is regarded as a powerful ruler.

Unique doctrines ... yes. I have noticed some  of them reading the online website manuals.  Possibly
the biggest one is the teaching that Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God.  But some
of your beliefs seem particularly unique when I speak in person to some other LDS missionaries.  It's
not a criticism, just an observation.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Jonah said:

If you have no idea when Satan was seated at God's left hand, how can you make that statement
that he was ever seated at His left side?  Was that just speculation based on some theory Jesus
and Lucifer were both angels before Jesus became a God?

I had the impression that you asked if Satan (previously known as Lucifer) was seated at the right hand of G-d before Jesus.  It was to that question that I responded that I did not know.  I also responded that there is a reference in scripture that Satan is a Cherub and so I have inserted that the Cherub at the left hand of G-d's mercy seat is Satan because the Stephen saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of G-d.  Are you denying that Satan is at the left hand of G-d ever?

Quote

As for Satan being referenced as a god of this world, it is not a sarcastic reference.  Moses was
also referred to as a god to Aaron.  But in these cases, god does not mean deity; it means someone
who is regarded as a powerful ruler.

Interesting you are making a reference to variant readings in reference to textual criticism.  You ask me to accept yours but refuse to consider mine?  This brings me to your last point:

Quote

Unique doctrines ... yes. I have noticed some  of them reading the online website manuals.  Possibly
the biggest one is the teaching that Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God.  But some
of your beliefs seem particularly unique when I speak in person to some other LDS missionaries.  It's
not a criticism, just an observation.

Lets look at this.  The best example of G-d that has ever been presented to mankind in our fallen state is Jesus Christ.  We do observe in the example of Jesus Christ that a G-d in heaven can condescend from his divine thrown of power and light in Heaven and come down to this earth as a man - even to suffer death.  I assume this was not an illusion or a trick but rather a real actual event.  Why do you think this is impossible and beyond the power of Heavenly Father?  Are you also aware that one of the ancient names or titles of G-d in the Old Testament is "man of holiness". 

 

The Traveler

Edited August 13, 2020 by Traveler

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Jonah said:

Unique doctrines ... yes. I have noticed some  of them reading the online website manuals.  Possibly
the biggest one is the teaching that Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God.  But some
of your beliefs seem particularly unique when I speak in person to some other LDS missionaries.  It's
not a criticism, just an observation.

It's super important to take things in context.  The take missionaries or a normal LDS Christian person will explain things to you is in context, and while there are differences, both camps (Catholic and LDS Christian) do have understandable logic behind it (even speculations about the Father's history).  On the other hand, grabbing a quote off of a manual is always removing it from the context, so its very easy for anything to look weird that way.  Sadly, both anti-Catholic and anti-Mormons make such removal of context and spinning their bread and butter.

For me, I find on the the marks of a true Christian (whether that be a Catholic or LDS one) is that willingness to study deep, ask real questions with real open ears,  real engagement with people/ideas, and coming to real understanding with real respect.   

Edited August 14, 2020 by Jane_Doe

[Jonah]

21 hours ago, Traveler said:

I had the impression that you asked if Satan (previously known as Lucifer) was seated at the right hand of G-d before Jesus.  It was to that question that I responded that I did not know.  I also responded that there is a reference in scripture that Satan is a Cherub and so I have inserted that the Cherub at the left hand of G-d's mercy seat is Satan because the Stephen saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of G-d.  Are you denying that Satan is at the left hand of G-d ever?

Scripture is silent on who was at Heavenly Father's left and right hand before Satan and Jesus
are said to have been born to heavenly parents.  But I don't believe Jesus was ever a cherub.

Exodus 25:22 (esv) says "There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between 
the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give
you in commandment for the people of Israel"

Is this your reference to Satan and Jesus being the two cherubs?

[Traveler]

42 minutes ago, Jonah said:

Scripture is silent on who was at Heavenly Father's left and right hand before Satan and Jesus
are said to have been born to heavenly parents.  But I don't believe Jesus was ever a cherub.

Exodus 25:22 (esv) says "There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between 
the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give
you in commandment for the people of Israel"

Is this your reference to Satan and Jesus being the two cherubs?

A few notes from Ezekiel (chapter 28) that talks about a particular cherub.  The cherub is identified as having been in Eden and is also a covering cherub.  The only reference I can find to a covering cherub is on the ark of the covenant (Mercy Seat).  Obviously this cherub was once "perfect" but fell because of pride.  I believe Lucifer (Satan) is a good candidate.  Do you have a better explanation?

From scripture the cherubim of Eden are identified with a few very important symbols.  First is the Keeper of the way to the Tree of Life.  Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life.  In ancient symbolism this is a direct link to the keeper of the way to the Tree of Life.  Also the Cherubim symbolically has a sword with fire (flaming sword).  You seem to be well versed in the Book of Revelation so I will leave this exercise up to you as to who will symbolically appear with a sword and fire.  If you have a better idea and a scripture pointing to a better candidate, you may put it on the table.  Finally Jesus is given the title of both Mediator (John 14:6) and Advocate (Hebrews 7:25 & 9:24).  These are terms that apply to a judgment and who has claim on a soul.  From simple logic who else shall via against each other to have claim on our eternal souls?

 

The Traveler

[Jonah]

On 8/14/2020 at 6:51 PM, Traveler said:

A few notes from Ezekiel (chapter 28) that talks about a particular cherub.  The cherub is identified as having been in Eden and is also a covering cherub.  The only reference I can find to a covering cherub is on the ark of the covenant (Mercy Seat).  Obviously this cherub was once "perfect" but fell because of pride.  I believe Lucifer (Satan) is a good candidate.  Do you have a better explanation?

From scripture the cherubim of Eden are identified with a few very important symbols.  First is the Keeper of the way to the Tree of Life.  Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life.  In ancient symbolism this is a direct link to the keeper of the way to the Tree of Life.  Also the Cherubim symbolically has a sword with fire (flaming sword).  You seem to be well versed in the Book of Revelation so I will leave this exercise up to you as to who will symbolically appear with a sword and fire.  If you have a better idea and a scripture pointing to a better candidate, you may put it on the table.  Finally Jesus is given the title of both Mediator (John 14:6) and Advocate (Hebrews 7:25 & 9:24).  These are terms that apply to a judgment and who has claim on a soul.  From simple logic who else shall via against each other to have claim on our eternal souls?

 

The Traveler

Before our conversation, I never contemplated Satan and Jesus being the two cherubs above the mercy 
seat as you seemed to indicate previously.  I looked at Ezekiel 28.  I have seen some view the King 
of Tyre as the embodiment of Satan.

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; Thou wast 
perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee". 

There is no specific mention of what he covers, but a mercy seat could be an option before he fell 
and if there was a mercy seat before he rebelled against God.

In the scripture, there are multiple cherubs.

Genesis 3:24

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming 
sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life". 

In this passage, I see possibly 4 cherubs (guarding the north, south, east, and west directions).

Then we have a description of the mercy seat.

Exodus 25:20-22 

"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, 
and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 
And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that 
I shall give thee. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy 
seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I 
will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel".

I don't see two cherubs of unequal glory/power or one evil cherub (Satan) vs. one good cherub (Jesus) 
in that passage. Another thing is that the cherubs are winged creatures, have four faces, and their 
wings make quite a bit of noise (Ezekiel chapters 1 and 10).

That's why I don't believe Satan (an angel) and Jesus (God) are the two cherubs over the mercy seat.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Jonah said:

Before our conversation, I never contemplated Satan and Jesus being the two cherubs above the mercy 
seat as you seemed to indicate previously.  I looked at Ezekiel 28.  I have seen some view the King 
of Tyre as the embodiment of Satan.

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; Thou wast 
perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee". 

There is no specific mention of what he covers, but a mercy seat could be an option before he fell 
and if there was a mercy seat before he rebelled against God.

In the scripture, there are multiple cherubs.

Genesis 3:24

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming 
sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life". 

In this passage, I see possibly 4 cherubs (guarding the north, south, east, and west directions).

Then we have a description of the mercy seat.

Exodus 25:20-22 

"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, 
and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 
And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that 
I shall give thee. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy 
seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I 
will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel".

I don't see two cherubs of unequal glory/power or one evil cherub (Satan) vs. one good cherub (Jesus) 
in that passage. Another thing is that the cherubs are winged creatures, have four faces, and their 
wings make quite a bit of noise (Ezekiel chapters 1 and 10).

That's why I don't believe Satan (an angel) and Jesus (God) are the two cherubs over the mercy seat.

I understand your position - I use to think that as well.  Thank you for considering another possibility.

 

The Traveler