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Phineas

Are Latter-day Saints unified?

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6 hours ago, Vort said:

PP, your ignorance knows no bounds. You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

You are most obviously not right. I do not expect for even a small moment that you will recognize or acknowledge your howling wrongness, but for the record, you're wrong, as wrong as you can possibly be.

You are treading a dangerous path, where you freely ignore your own weighty sins and filthiness and instead concentrate on finding fault with those who should be your fellow Saints. Your actions will result in deep, lasting pain for yourself and for many who love and look to you for example. You have laid your private misactions open to public view, as you have tried to justify them. You have heaped condemnation on your fellow Saints, including the leadership of the kingdom of God. These things are destructive to what you claim you're trying to accomplish.

I encourage you to rethink your entire approach to the gospel. You are doing it wrong. For your own sake and the sake of those who love you, please stop.

An example of someone who personally wants all the benefits of the Church is a Hospital for Sinners model, but then condemns anyone else who is there and also sick.  Christ commands us to meet as a Church.  He even goes so far as to even put his name on it.  One of the many reason is that it is part of the continued test of mortality.  If we can't practice Christ-like charity toward people who are trying (no matter how flawed). What hope to we have to lay claim on the blessing of the Celestial Kingdom?  If one can not follow the Good Samaritan  model toward the flawed faithful, one will not be able to do it to the stranger as the Lord commands.

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13 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

LDS think the only way we can serve others is to go to church once a week and serve our own. That is a selfish church and a mindset that needs to change in order for the church to grow immensely as God wants it too (fill all corners of the earth). 

https://www.latterdaysaintcharities.org/

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/english/charities/pdf/2019/LDS-Charities-Annual-Report-2019_R11.pdf?lang=eng

12 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

The temple building is necessary, the chapel bldg is not (as proven by covid when sacrament was being conducted in homes).
The bishop is necessary, the RS pres, EQ pres etc. is not.

Living a covenant life only require a bishop and a temple, am I right?

No. The temple itself needs the higher priesthood to function fully. The bishop has no authority in the temple.

Edited by Connie

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2 hours ago, Connie said:

 

https://www.latterdaysaintcharities.org/

 

No. The temple itself needs the higher priesthood to function fully. The bishop has no authority in the temple.

This is beside my point and it appears that I am not articulating very well. 

Also my case for a virtual church worship was compared to the experience with my online college degree which fit me perfectly. My child is a senior in high school and I am 100% encouraging her to live on-campus, she needs the social experience. I had that same experience when I was 18, I didn't need it when I was 41.

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14 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

This is beside my point and it appears that I am not articulating very well. 

I will look forward to a more clear explanation then.

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1 hour ago, Connie said:

I will look forward to a more clear explanation then.

One might hope.  Because there is a world of difference between being excited at the new possibilities Technology gives us to Preach and Live the Gospel.  And declaring the old ways of doing so as being the cause of all our woes and problems... Because he has being doing the later ever since he joined the site.

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22 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Not remove the church, just less of the traditional "Social" way of worship which we have come to call sunday church. LDS think the only way we can serve others is to go to church once a week and serve our own. That is a selfish church and a mindset that needs to change in order for the church to grow immensely as God wants it too (fill all corners of the earth). 

Less face to face and more virtual, more home. Home is the new church. Every one of the 8 billion people on this earth have a home, if home is church then church is for everyone and God would smile.

Once again as I shared in another post, I recently completed that last 2 yrs of my I.S. bachelors degree (started it 20yrs ago) from home without meeting one single cohort or administrator. My counselor followed up with me once a week via email, had I had any problems or if I was struggling with anything she would be available via phone but I was blowing past every course with flying colors. I had opportunities to join course chats to speak with other classmates and professors but I really didnt need that extra attention. If in-class, on-campus courses were my only option I would have never gone back to complete my degree for many reasons. 

These colleges and universities are finding ways, creating ways, to get their programs out to everyone. Schooling at my age and circumstance "is not for me".

or was it?! 

..it was! The college just needed to adjust. The degree and courses are still the same, the process evolves. 

So why is it that LDS folks say the gospel is for everyone as we faithfully look forward to converting and baptizing the world, but when we proselyte and talk to our neighbors they say "it isn't for me." Not to mention there may be more people leaving the church every year then being baptized, their reasons? "it isnt for me."

The gospel and God is for everyone, we are failing in the process. Covid is a wakeup call.

 

 

This is an interesting take on what the future could hold.

The Home has always been the key to the Gospel and the Church.  It is almost always in the home where the basic foundations of the gospel are laid.  Those who rely on Primary and Sunday School to teach their children faithfulness (in my opinion) have a greater chance of their children falling away from the gospel and the church in the long run than those who teach and practice it in great amounts in their homes (edit: This of course, in addition to attending church meetings, if that was not clear by implicaton).

There have been many various church programs to try to impress this upon people.  Though I do not see it as stressed upon today, Family Home evening is one such program.  Too many families were not teaching the gospel within their walls, and too many were simply leaning upon the church to teach and train their children for them. 

Today, once again, there is a push for the members of the Church to focus more on a family centered gospel where it is studied and taught in the home.  Much of the shortened church and the new gospel teaching programs were based upon this push.  In this way, I'm not so sure Covid-19 is such a wakeup call for the general authorities who were already pushing to have this, as much as it is for the some of the membership of the church.

Even though Come Follow Me was instituted, I think many were not utilizing it in their homes (and I think there are still many who are not).  Instead, they simply took the extra hour and spent it on other things on Sundays rather than study with their families.  This epidemic upon the world and the consequences of it should have been helpful in reinforcing the importance of scripture study and taking that extra time in our homes to do this study.  I say should, because I'm not sure of how much members actually have taken it to heart.

On whether the future would have even more home centered worship rather than time spent in our chapels together...perhaps in the future but there are things that worshiping together fulfills which I'm not sure how they would be achieved otherwise.

1.  By worshipping together, people see how the church should be run.  They can see the examples of others and understand more fully what positions (for example, a Bishop, or a Counselor, or even just other members) do and how they should act.  I'm not sure how you would replicate this from a purely home based church.

2.  We have been told to worship together.  Now, this can be fulfilled whereever two or three saints are gathered together, but the implications are that when there are more, and more are available, that we are to do so together.  This lets us build upon the strengths of our neighbors who share our beliefs.  I think this is needed for many, especially when their faith is flagging or trouble haunts their spirits and they need the spiritual strength of others to rely on.

3.  When we are in front of others or seen by others were are more likely to be on good behavior than to let our bad behaviors or attitudes come out.  By meeting together we are reminded, at least some, to try to be better than we are.

There are several other things that we obtain by meeting together on a regular basis.  It may be that we worship solely from our homes in the future (and it has occurred in the past in some areas of the world, and perhaps today, where meeting together as a group is impossible or not feasible), but there are certain aspects that I think would need to be addressed on how they could be fulfilled before that occurs...at least in my frame of thinking currently.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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6 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Also my case for a virtual church worship was compared to the experience with my online college degree which fit me perfectly. My child is a senior in high school and I am 100% encouraging her to live on-campus, she needs the social experience. I had that same experience when I was 18, I didn't need it when I was 41.

I could go all week without seeing another person and be fine with it. That's just my personality. But even for me when I go to church and associate with people of faith and other admirable qualities I can't help but be uplifted. I get your emphasis on living the gospel in the home. We are living in a day where if that is not happening then all the church in the world won't be enough. But that time spent in worship together can make all the difference in the world for some people and I hope I can be a part of that. Could I go the rest of my life only worshipping at home? I would like to think I could. But life would not be nearly so full and enjoyable without those relationships with fellow saints.

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13 hours ago, laronius said:

I could go all week without seeing another person and be fine with it. That's just my personality. But even for me when I go to church and associate with people of faith and other admirable qualities I can't help but be uplifted. I get your emphasis on living the gospel in the home. We are living in a day where if that is not happening then all the church in the world won't be enough. But that time spent in worship together can make all the difference in the world for some people and I hope I can be a part of that. Could I go the rest of my life only worshipping at home? I would like to think I could. But life would not be nearly so full and enjoyable without those relationships with fellow saints.

There is also the flip side of that... When a faithful member goes to church and participates... How many people might they uplift or strengthen?  Even if only a little bit?  Our covenants include helping others. 

Yet to many members who are under these covenants make church attendance all about them.  What they need... what they get... and with such a selfish mindset they end up with nothing but misery.  Which is exactly what one should expect from such a covenant violation.  

It is one of those gospel paradoxes that those that go to church thinking what can they give, who can they help... tend to get more out of it then those that always are about what they get out of it.

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7 hours ago, estradling75 said:

There is also the flip side of that... When a faithful member goes to church and participates... How many people might they uplift or strengthen?  Even if only a little bit?  Our covenants include helping others. 

Yet to many members who are under these covenants make church attendance all about them.  What they need... what they get... and with such a selfish mindset they end up with nothing but misery.  Which is exactly what one should expect from such a covenant violation.  

It is one of those gospel paradoxes that those that go to church thinking what can they give, who can they help... tend to get more out of it then those that always are about what they get out of it.

I couldn't agree more. It's the acting vs waiting to be acted upon principle. I've done both and without a doubt when I change my mindset to be outward focused instead of inward my church going experience is totally different.

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31 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The social way of worship is how we take care of each other.  

Have you seen Patch Adams?

Do you mean "pre-internet days" of social worship (strictly physical interactions) as the way we take care of each other?
Does social media, online methods have a part in church worship and possibly surpassing traditional social methods?

 

What used to be a 30min - 60min sit down with the entire family as a home teacher is now a 5 min chat at the grocery store, or a text asking how they are doing.

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On 9/7/2020 at 5:33 AM, estradling75 said:

Yet to many members who are under these covenants make church attendance all about them.  What they need... what they get... and with such a selfish mindset they end up with nothing but misery.  Which is exactly what one should expect from such a covenant violation.  

It is one of those gospel paradoxes that those that go to church thinking what can they give, who can they help... tend to get more out of it then those that always are about what they get out of it.

I believe this is a social/church problem and not a gospel problem.

Is the covenant (to serve) being violated or the situation causing the violation? Some members thrive while others either dont or simply just go inactive. What if we remove the member from the situation (church) that causes him/her to violate?

Is that a solution?

Lets say that person was me and the bishop sat me down and said "PP, I notice you have a hard time serving in your callings and getting along with others in the ward. I also notice that you have a full busy life taking care of your family, work and hobbies, you seem to be happy and driven when I see you in the community and I cant understand why you are grumpy in church."

.."I tell you what, as long as you can continue your scripture reading/personal prayers and tithing you can miss church...you do need to take the sacrament at least once a month so please come to sacrament meeting once a month but you can leave right after."

Me: "will I still be able to be in good standing as a temple recommend holder?"

Bishop: "Yes!"

-------------------------

Is this a solution? Cause you know church is not for everyone! and "serving" does not only mean to serve people in white shirts and ties.

----------------------

* fyi - This was me for 2 yrs, my work schedule fell on Sundays so bishop directed me in this way. 

 

Edited by priesthoodpower

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12 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Cause you know church is not for everyone!

The kingdom of God is not for everyone. What a thing to say.

Of course, it's true. Christ's sheep are those who hear his voice. It follows that the kingdom of God, where all hear Christ's voice, is not a place for those who are not Christ's sheep. But since we can't identify by sight who is and who is not Christ's sheep, we generally avoid saying such things.

Edited by Vort

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On 9/6/2020 at 3:12 PM, JohnsonJones said:

On whether the future would have even more home centered worship rather than time spent in our chapels together...perhaps in the future but there are things that worshiping together fulfills which I'm not sure how they would be achieved otherwise.

1.  By worshipping together, people see how the church should be run.  They can see the examples of others and understand more fully what positions (for example, a Bishop, or a Counselor, or even just other members) do and how they should act.  I'm not sure how you would replicate this from a purely home based church.

2.  We have been told to worship together.  Now, this can be fulfilled whereever two or three saints are gathered together, but the implications are that when there are more, and more are available, that we are to do so together.  This lets us build upon the strengths of our neighbors who share our beliefs.  I think this is needed for many, especially when their faith is flagging or trouble haunts their spirits and they need the spiritual strength of others to rely on.

3.  When we are in front of others or seen by others were are more likely to be on good behavior than to let our bad behaviors or attitudes come out.  By meeting together we are reminded, at least some, to try to be better than we are.

There are several other things that we obtain by meeting together on a regular basis.  It may be that we worship solely from our homes in the future (and it has occurred in the past in some areas of the world, and perhaps today, where meeting together as a group is impossible or not feasible), but there are certain aspects that I think would need to be addressed on how they could be fulfilled before that occurs...at least in my frame of thinking currently.

Im old school (80s-90s) and traditional church is the only thing I knew growing up, that is until the world started changing. On my mission 22yrs ago my mission president told us to teach the missionary lessons word for word, do not add or subtract a word, the lessons were inspired of God and is perfect as is. By the time I left the mission an updated set of lessons came out with a few changes on the wording and minus one chapter, from 7 down to 6. Wait a minute, I thought the original set of lessons were perfectly inspired by God, nope, it needed updating, and then in 2002-ish? The entire world mission program got an overhaul...dont read anything! use your own words and teach by the spirit! 

Things change for the better. Its not hard, for me at least, to understand and accept. Seeing how the world is changing and how worship will change makes me excited to know that the doors will be even more open for more people to partake of the gospel. I dont think its a lowering of the bar or widening the goal posts, just simply opening of the doors. 

1. God is not limited within the walls of a chapel. 
2. Learning the doctrine is not limited within the walls of a chapel.
3. Feeling the Spirit that testifies of the gospel of Jesus Christ is not limited within the walls of a chapel.
4. The priesthood authority to over see the church/saints is not limited within the walls of the chapel.

Im not saying get rid of the chapel, just that things are changing/updating for the better. 

 

Here is a new article out today that goes along these same lines

https://www.deseret.com/indepth/2020/9/8/21407648/what-do-prayer-pods-means-church-worship-mormon-lds-house-church-small-group-worship

 

Edited by priesthoodpower

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57 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

Im old school (80s-90s) and traditional church is the only thing I knew growing up, that is until the world started changing. On my mission 22yrs ago my mission president told us to teach the missionary lessons word for word, do not add or subtract a word, the lessons were inspired of God and is perfect as is. By the time I left the mission an updated set of lessons came out with a few changes on the wording and minus one chapter, from 7 down to 6. Wait a minute, I thought the original set of lessons were perfectly inspired by God, nope, it needed updating, and then in 2002-ish? The entire world mission program got an overhaul...dont read anything! use your own words and teach by the spirit! 

Things change for the better. Its not hard, for me at least, to understand and accept. Seeing how the world is changing and how worship will change makes me excited to know that the doors will be even more open for more people to partake of the gospel. I dont think its a lowering of the bar or widening the goal posts, just simply opening of the doors. 

1. God is not limited within the walls of a chapel. 
2. Learning the doctrine is not limited within the walls of a chapel.
3. Feeling the Spirit that testifies of the gospel of Jesus Christ is not limited within the walls of a chapel.
4. The priesthood authority to over see the church/saints is not limited within the walls of the chapel.

Im not saying get rid of the chapel, just that things are changing/updating for the better. 

 

Here is a new article out today that goes along these same lines

https://www.deseret.com/indepth/2020/9/8/21407648/what-do-prayer-pods-means-church-worship-mormon-lds-house-church-small-group-worship

 

The world is changing, rapidly, quickly, and vastly.  I hope that more doors are opening in these modern times as more people get access to things on the internet that provide materials to progress the work of the Lord (family search, genealogy, the scriptures online, etc). 

I am reminded of the story from a Movie the Church put out many decades ago called How Rare a Possession.  In it we have the story of a man who finds a Book of Mormon.  He does not know where it comes from, but gains a testimony of it and searches for his whole life to find the gospel and the church.  Today, perhaps someone searching for truth could find the Book of Mormon online, but with modern resources it would be far easier for them to find the truth and be baptized as the spirit has testified to them already about the Book of Mormon.

I tend to have dour outlooks on how wicked the world has gone, but as you point out, there are probably things that are changing and updating for the better.  Having a positive outlook on the things that are updating and changing could be a better way to look at the world and how the gospel is being spread throughout the world than the more negative aspects I sometimes express.

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14 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The social way of worship is how we take care of each other.  

Have you seen Patch Adams?

Love that movie.  It showed someone who really cared about people.

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12 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

 

I believe this is a social/church problem and not a gospel problem.

Is the covenant (to serve) being violated or the situation causing the violation? Some members thrive while others either dont or simply just go inactive. What if we remove the member from the situation (church) that causes him/her to violate?

Is that a solution?

Lets say that person was me and the bishop sat me down and said "PP, I notice you have a hard time serving in your callings and getting along with others in the ward. I also notice that you have a full busy life taking care of your family, work and hobbies, you seem to be happy and driven when I see you in the community and I cant understand why you are grumpy in church."

.."I tell you what, as long as you can continue your scripture reading/personal prayers and tithing you can miss church...you do need to take the sacrament at least once a month so please come to sacrament meeting once a month but you can leave right after."

Me: "will I still be able to be in good standing as a temple recommend holder?"

Bishop: "Yes!"

-------------------------

Is this a solution? Cause you know church is not for everyone! and "serving" does not only mean to serve people in white shirts and ties.

----------------------

* fyi - This was me for 2 yrs, my work schedule fell on Sundays so bishop directed me in this way. 

 

There is a world of difference between a Bishop who knows about a individual situation,  who praying about the individual, and who working with and advising said individual on the path they should take.  For he clearly has the authority, stewardship, and all the keys needed for that.  It is a solution for that individual at that time. 

But that is wildly different from that said individual then trying to declare that the path his Bishop helped him with is the "One True Path" for everyone.  He has no stewardship, no authority and no keys.. but he insist that he is right anyways.

It kind of like saying, since the Lord Promise no more Floods, we do not need to board an ark.  And since we do not need to.. No one ever needed to.  Thus Noah and he family didn't need to board the ark.  They only did so because of "Cultural Pressure."  Just think of how many more people the family of Noah might have converted if they had not "offended" them by boarding the ark.   

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On 9/8/2020 at 11:21 PM, JohnsonJones said:

The world is changing, rapidly, quickly, and vastly.  I hope that more doors are opening in these modern times as more people get access to things on the internet that provide materials to progress the work of the Lord (family search, genealogy, the scriptures online, etc). 

I am reminded of the story from a Movie the Church put out many decades ago called How Rare a Possession.  In it we have the story of a man who finds a Book of Mormon.  He does not know where it comes from, but gains a testimony of it and searches for his whole life to find the gospel and the church.  Today, perhaps someone searching for truth could find the Book of Mormon online, but with modern resources it would be far easier for them to find the truth and be baptized as the spirit has testified to them already about the Book of Mormon.

I tend to have dour outlooks on how wicked the world has gone, but as you point out, there are probably things that are changing and updating for the better.  Having a positive outlook on the things that are updating and changing could be a better way to look at the world and how the gospel is being spread throughout the world than the more negative aspects I sometimes express.

I just got an email today from our area presidency that sacrament meeting is going virtual starting next Sunday. I can now broadcast my wards meeting into my home where my inactive kids can observe..not so sure that they will sit and watch with me but the broadcast will provide the opportunity for the priesthood authority from bishop to uplift in my home. You see several years ago when my ex and kids left the church they requested that no church members (VT, HT, Primary or missionaries) visit our home. Yes they left the church but they did not leave Jesus or God.

3 Nephi 18:22 And behold, ye shall meet together oft; and ye shall not forbid any man from coming unto you when ye shall meet together, but suffer them that they may come unto you and forbid them not;

Breaking down social barriers. For families like mine this is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGEEEE!

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6 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Breaking down social barriers. For families like mine this is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGEEEE!

I was amazed by how many ward members have attended church since we recently started back who normally didn't come back before we stopped going. Who would have thought that the Church, in a sense, "shutting down" could actually bring members back or in your case potentially increase exposure to. I'm glad to hear about the silver linings in all this.

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9 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Yes they left the church but they did not leave Jesus or God.

Far be it from me to tell another his or her standing before God. Nevertheless, I do not see how it is possible to leave the kingdom of God and Jesus without leaving God and Jesus. This seems to be false by the very definition of words.

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