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Phineas

Are Latter-day Saints unified?

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I've noticed that Americans are deeply divided these days when comes to both cultural and political issues.   I've also noticed that this division cuts through the Latter-day Saint population as well.    I mentioned on another thread that anti-tribalism is a prominent message of the Book of Mormon.  Christ taught that contention is of the devil.  The ideal society formed following Christ's coming had no manner of ites.   How is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doing right now at living up to these ideals?  As far as I can tell, most active church members on both sides of the spectrum are getting on along with each other during church functions.  I hope this is the case across the board.  Is the current war of ideas negatively affecting our church or are we still doing ok?

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9 hours ago, Phineas said:

I've noticed that Americans are deeply divided these days when comes to both cultural and political issues.   I've also noticed that this division cuts through the Latter-day Saint population as well.    I mentioned on another thread that anti-tribalism is a prominent message of the Book of Mormon.  Christ taught that contention is of the devil.  The ideal society formed following Christ's coming had no manner of ites.   How is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doing right now at living up to these ideals?  As far as I can tell, most active church members on both sides of the spectrum are getting on along with each other during church functions.  I hope this is the case across the board.  Is the current war of ideas negatively affecting our church or are we still doing ok?

Jesus said that his followers will love one another.  We also should be of one mind and heart.  I do not think that all this means that we agree.  For example I do not believe we learn new things if we only learn from those with whom we agree.  I do know that Latter-day Saints with political liberal leanings struggle more with the predominate Church culture than the political conservative.   For me - it is more important to understand why (the logic behind) what a person believes than it is what they believe.  I have dealt for much of my life with the culture of science where inquiry into logic is expected but often in the Church there is bitterness if the reason is sought for - beyond the logic that G-d said it to be so.

 

The Traveler

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I also don’t think “being one” means we have to all think the same or agree. 

Yes, there are disagreements, and they are so apparent on places like social media and nerves are raw. 

But I am heartened when a ward member is moving out, and two dozen people come to haul the grand piano down the stairs. 

I am heartened by all of the “new normal” activities we throw together.  How my new ministering sister and I chat about Wednesday Morning Craft Time with the local library (done via zoom). How I while together with my large ward family, how precious the relationship with that one family we do get together is.  How people are so aware the value of connection and that everyone has diverse needs. 

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On 8/14/2020 at 3:37 AM, Phineas said:

I've noticed that Americans are deeply divided these days when comes to both cultural and political issues.   I've also noticed that this division cuts through the Latter-day Saint population as well.    I mentioned on another thread that anti-tribalism is a prominent message of the Book of Mormon.  Christ taught that contention is of the devil.  The ideal society formed following Christ's coming had no manner of ites.   How is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doing right now at living up to these ideals?  As far as I can tell, most active church members on both sides of the spectrum are getting on along with each other during church functions.  I hope this is the case across the board.  Is the current war of ideas negatively affecting our church or are we still doing ok?

I believe we are kind to each other because we care for each other and share many commonalities.  Whether we are unified depends on what you mean by that.  Look on Facebook at any "progressive mormon" group and you'll see that we are very far apart in many areas of belief.  Some of the discussion I have with Saints boggle my mind.

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I figure the gospel pavilion is wide enough to cover all sorts of God's children, with all sorts of differing beliefs, even some pretty dang divided beliefs.  That said: 

On 8/14/2020 at 1:37 AM, Phineas said:

Christ taught that contention is of the devil.  

Yeah, it's not that simple.   Kind of like how scripture is full of commandments to both not judge, and judge righteously, we see similar admonitions about resisting/contending/fighting/arguing.

D&C 71:5-11: Now, behold this is wisdom; whoso readeth, let him understand and receive also; For unto him that receiveth it shall be given more abundantly, even power. Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest."

1 Peter 3:15:  "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

1 Thessalonians 5:21:  "Prove all things; hold fast to which is good."

It's important to not engage in in-fighting about gospel-related matters.  We are often supposed to fight and contend and stand and argue on lots of other topics with lots of other folk.

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I wrote this a couple weeks ago. I feel like it's relevant to the discussion, especially as it relates to contention: 

One of the more underrated teachings from the Savior is the admonition to, “agree with thine adversary quickly (Matthew 5:25).” This is a very practical teaching about disarming ourselves, so to speak, from sensitive topics which often arouse negative emotions. It’s natural to want to defend our beliefs and positions. That’s okay. We absolutely should have convictions, and not bend to whatever the popular whims of the day might be. It can become problematic, however, when we become so rigid in our stances that self-righteousness, arrogance, and contention overpower our better senses. Contention isn’t what happens when people disagree. It’s what happens when we lose trust and respect for one another. Contention is what happens when, “the love of many shall wax cold (Matthew 24:12).”
 
Many people naturally enjoy engaging in civil discourse from time-to-time. And many people enjoy discussing a myriad of different topics. Unfortunately, the discourse nowadays isn’t becoming so civil. We are sometimes consumed with the need for being “right.” And we want others to know we’re right. The Savior’s counsel reminds me that there are more important things than being right. We could have peace of mind, we could have mutual respect for others, and we could build on commonalities. The aim of any discussion should not be victory, but progress. A protestant minister once said, “God cares about people more than he cares about truth in the abstract. Jesus didn’t die on the cross to make a point. He died on the cross to save people whom he loves. We too must represent our Lord, with love to God and our neighbor, always foremost in our concerns.”

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15 hours ago, ldsguy422 said:

I wrote this a couple weeks ago. I feel like it's relevant to the discussion, especially as it relates to contention: 

One of the more underrated teachings from the Savior is the admonition to, “agree with thine adversary quickly (Matthew 5:25).” This is a very practical teaching about disarming ourselves, so to speak, from sensitive topics which often arouse negative emotions. It’s natural to want to defend our beliefs and positions. That’s okay. We absolutely should have convictions, and not bend to whatever the popular whims of the day might be. It can become problematic, however, when we become so rigid in our stances that self-righteousness, arrogance, and contention overpower our better senses. Contention isn’t what happens when people disagree. It’s what happens when we lose trust and respect for one another. Contention is what happens when, “the love of many shall wax cold (Matthew 24:12).”
 
Many people naturally enjoy engaging in civil discourse from time-to-time. And many people enjoy discussing a myriad of different topics. Unfortunately, the discourse nowadays isn’t becoming so civil. We are sometimes consumed with the need for being “right.” And we want others to know we’re right. The Savior’s counsel reminds me that there are more important things than being right. We could have peace of mind, we could have mutual respect for others, and we could build on commonalities. The aim of any discussion should not be victory, but progress. A protestant minister once said, “God cares about people more than he cares about truth in the abstract. Jesus didn’t die on the cross to make a point. He died on the cross to save people whom he loves. We too must represent our Lord, with love to God and our neighbor, always foremost in our concerns.”

I agree, to a point.  You can disagree without being disagreeable.  However, some topics pushed to the forefront are just volatile topics.  Additionally, many of our adversaries are pushing their agenda violently.  We've failed to protect our borders, and we now have the adversary attempting to convert our children and weaker members from within.  You even see it on this forum.   I've seen otherwise faithful members of my own small ward striding down the path of progressivism.

I will never be ashamed to actively correct false doctrine, whether stated or hinted.  I will never be ashamed to actively correct those preaching bad habits and to follow the flesh, or to propose keeping BYU pure..  I will never be ashamed of identifying and inserting myself into conversations intended to sway weaker members or youth.  

If that means you think I'm part of the problem, I'm willing to entertain you may be correct.  I don't think so, though.  I'm willing to stand in front of my Savior and declare my pure intentions were to save my brothers and sisters and help all endure to the end.  If I am wrong, I'll face his judgment, as will those who turned their backs to their brothers and sisters who were being led away from Him.

Edited by Grunt

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1 hour ago, Grunt said:

I agree, to a point.  You can disagree without being disagreeable.  However, some topics pushed to the forefront are just volatile topics.  Additionally, many of our adversaries are pushing their agenda violently.  We've failed to protect our borders, and we now have the adversary attempting to convert our children and weaker members from within.  You even see it on this forum.   I've seen otherwise faithful members of my own small ward striding down the path of progressivism.

I will never be ashamed to actively correct false doctrine, whether stated or hinted.  I will never be ashamed to actively correct those preaching bad habits and to follow the flesh, or to propose keeping BYU pure..  I will never be ashamed of identifying and inserting myself into conversations intended to sway weaker members or youth.  

If that means you think I'm part of the problem, I'm willing to entertain you may be correct.  I don't think so, though.  I'm willing to stand in front of my Savior and declare my pure intentions were to save my brothers and sisters and help all endure to the end.  If I am wrong, I'll face his judgment, as will those who turned their backs to their brothers and sisters who were being led away from Him.

I thought to engage in your conversation.  I am not sure how much or if I agree or disagree.  I would think there is a spectrum in such matters.  That there is one side of the spectrum where it is imperative to stand firm for truth - there are also time to realize that agency is a principle that can be in conflict with truth when someone chooses by their agency, lies over truth.

A little story:  In my youth - 50+ years ago I had a younger brother (that I did not get along with at the time) that was struggling with life choices.  It was not anything so serious but it was a time when long hair and facial hair on boys was not according to the recommendations of our prophets.  This brother was younger than me so the incident happened after I left home.  This young man was planning on serving a mission - all his older brothers had done so but he was contemplating waiting a year or two before going on his mission and was still finishing high school.  He was one of this boys that wanted to enjoy life.  His hair was too long and he intended to experiment with life (like so many characters in the Book of Mormon - a particular son of Alma the younger comes to mind).  A well meaning prominent member of the ward and the ward leadership one Sunday engaged my brother about his rebellious nature and too long hair.  They were intent on standing for true doctrine and calling my brother to repentance.  As their discussion became heated - obviously because of the sarcasm of my brother.   This good member asked my brother why if he thinks as he does - why come to church where obviously he did not fit in or belong.

My brother has never been back to church since.  The hair issue is long gone.  This brother came from a good family and has grown up to be a fine man, very good husband and father, civic leader and prominent corporate executive.   He is known for his high moral standards and honesty but he has never been back to church (any church).  This brother is now a best friend and a ski buddy of me and my brothers.  His next door neighbor is his bishop and also a good friend - they play pickle ball every Monday.   My brother is active in service projects in the ward but when asked about coming to church - he says he does not fit in or belong.  Sometimes he asks me how well I fit in and belong.

The reason I am telling this story is because I believe there are things more important than doctrine and being right about every point of doctrine.  I honestly do not know how Christ will judge my brother but my prayers are that the Savior will show him mercy as he (my brother) has been merciful and kind towards others.  He is a very strong willed person but he has never rejected someone of a different opinion or hinted that he is not a friend or that they do not belong. 

I am very sure that if that member that in anger accused my brother could have a do over knowing what has become of it - would do so and perhaps have even regretted it themselves and repented of it.  Not because what they did was wrong but because a Saint of G-d is consistently repenting for the good and salvation of all mankind.

I am also not sure how Christ will judge me.  I could be a much better person than I am.  I am not near as loving and kind to others as my brother.  My brother thinks he is the black sheep of the family - I remind him that our mother gave me that label.

 

The Traveler

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12 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I thought to engage in your conversation.  I am not sure how much or if I agree or disagree.  I would think there is a spectrum in such matters.  That there is one side of the spectrum where it is imperative to stand firm for truth - there are also time to realize that agency is a principle that can be in conflict with truth when someone chooses by their agency, lies over truth.

A little story:  In my youth - 50+ years ago I had a younger brother (that I did not get along with at the time) that was struggling with life choices.  It was not anything so serious but it was a time when long hair and facial hair on boys was not according to the recommendations of our prophets.  This brother was younger than me so the incident happened after I left home.  This young man was planning on serving a mission - all his older brothers had done so but he was contemplating waiting a year or two before going on his mission and was still finishing high school.  He was one of this boys that wanted to enjoy life.  His hair was too long and he intended to experiment with life (like so many characters in the Book of Mormon - a particular son of Alma the younger comes to mind).  A well meaning prominent member of the ward and the ward leadership one Sunday engaged my brother about his rebellious nature and too long hair.  They were intent on standing for true doctrine and calling my brother to repentance.  As their discussion became heated - obviously because of the sarcasm of my brother.   This good member asked my brother why if he thinks as he does - why come to church where obviously he did not fit in or belong.

My brother has never been back to church since.  The hair issue is long gone.  This brother came from a good family and has grown up to be a fine man, very good husband and father, civic leader and prominent corporate executive.   He is known for his high moral standards and honesty but he has never been back to church (any church).  This brother is now a best friend and a ski buddy of me and my brothers.  His next door neighbor is his bishop and also a good friend - they play pickle ball every Monday.   My brother is active in service projects in the ward but when asked about coming to church - he says he does not fit in or belong.  Sometimes he asks me how well I fit in and belong.

The reason I am telling this story is because I believe there are things more important than doctrine and being right about every point of doctrine.  I honestly do not know how Christ will judge my brother but my prayers are that the Savior will show him mercy as he (my brother) has been merciful and kind towards others.  He is a very strong willed person but he has never rejected someone of a different opinion or hinted that he is not a friend or that they do not belong. 

I am very sure that if that member that in anger accused my brother could have a do over knowing what has become of it - would do so and perhaps have even regretted it themselves and repented of it.  Not because what they did was wrong but because a Saint of G-d is consistently repenting for the good and salvation of all mankind.

I am also not sure how Christ will judge me.  I could be a much better person than I am.  I am not near as loving and kind to others as my brother.  My brother thinks he is the black sheep of the family - I remind him that our mother gave me that label.

 

The Traveler

I believe there is a difference between using your agency to act in opposition to the Church or disagreeing with doctrine is very different from encouraging others to do the same or influencing others that such behavior is OK.  

Two examples:   I was recently in a discussion with someone who claimed baptism wasn't required for exaltation, regardless of age.  He was quoting scripture improperly and trying to convince others he was correct.  This is something I will absolutely speak up against.   

2.  I recently purchased vitamins from someone in our ward.  They are mostly things I would take anyway, and I'd rather purchase from someone I know if it helps them than from Amazon.   When I researched these vitamins, I found that one of them contains green tea extract.  I informed them that I didn't want that one.  Trying to convince me it was OK, they assured me they and others in the ward take that vitamin as it doesn't contain any stimulants.  I have zero to say to them about THEM taking the vitamin unless they ask me my opinion.  It has nothing to do with me.  However, whether or not I believe that decision is in line with the Church, or is worth the risk that it isn't, is up to me.  
 

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On 8/21/2020 at 11:12 AM, Grunt said:

2.  I recently purchased vitamins from someone in our ward.  They are mostly things I would take anyway, and I'd rather purchase from someone I know if it helps them than from Amazon.   When I researched these vitamins, I found that one of them contains green tea extract.  I informed them that I didn't want that one.  Trying to convince me it was OK, they assured me they and others in the ward take that vitamin as it doesn't contain any stimulants.  I have zero to say to them about THEM taking the vitamin unless they ask me my opinion.  It has nothing to do with me.  However, whether or not I believe that decision is in line with the Church, or is worth the risk that it isn't, is up to me.  
 

I ran into almost this exact situation recently.  The member was convinced that because it was not in hot liquid that the Green Tea extract was okay.  It didn't sit right with me and I didn't use any of what they offered.  They extolled the health benefits and all other virtues, and while they may be right, for my own conscience I chose not to use any of it, nor even took any of it.  I think they used it every day (And probably still do), but for me it didn't feel the right choice.  I seemed to be among the minority at the time, but it was just a small group of members at the time that were offered it, and perhaps there are others out there that also have similar feelings to my own.

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

I ran into almost this exact situation recently.  The member was convinced that because it was not in hot liquid that the Green Tea extract was okay.  It didn't sit right with me and I didn't use any of what they offered.  They extolled the health benefits and all other virtues, and while they may be right, for my own conscience I chose not to use any of it, nor even took any of it.  I think they used it every day (And probably still do), but for me it didn't feel the right choice.  I seemed to be among the minority at the time, but it was just a small group of members at the time that were offered it, and perhaps there are others out there that also have similar feelings to my own.

The Word of Wisdom specifically references "Hot" drinks and is translated into our modern English to mean coffee and tea.  Most members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that the problem with coffee and tea is caffeine.  For many years all caffeine drinks were not sold at BYU establishments.  It has been a long time since I was at BYU but I have heard rumors that caffeine soft drinks are available at BYU.  For the record there is less caffeine in green tea than the standard caffeine soft drinks.  And often less than half the caffeine in diet soft drinks.  I guess that a caffeine jolt is a great substitute for a sugar high.  

You can also get about as much caffeine in a chocolate candy bar.  And of course dark chocolate, for some reason, will usually have more caffeine than regular chocolate.  It would seem that if someone is after a chocolate fix but is big on the WOW they will get the least caffeine with their hot chocolate drink.  When I was a kid we use to drink what was called Brigham Tea in Utah, which is a tea made from some special kind of sagebrush.  The stuff was awful (not to be confused with offal - which I think is also awful) but it contained lots of vitamin C so it was thought to be a cure for a cold or flu - maybe we ought to try it out with COVID-19.

For the record - I do know that drinking green tea will not be a problem in a temple recommend interview.  There is no problem thinking you are in full compliance with the WOW if you drink green tea.  If you doubt this - ask your member of the bishopric or stake presidency the next time you go for your temple interview (which reminds me that it is time for the wife and I, which I have forgotten because the temples are closed).

For the record I do not drink green tea or soft drinks - I do not understand why anyone would drink a soda.  I am a drink water fanatic though sometimes I will drink a glass of milk - I prefer my milk straight (whole) but I can stomach the watered down skim stuff. 

 

The Traveler

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3 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

For the record - I do know that drinking green tea will not be a problem in a temple recommend interview.  There is no problem thinking you are in full compliance with the WOW if you drink green tea.  If you doubt this - ask your member of the bishopric or stake presidency the next time you go for your temple interview (which reminds me that it is time for the wife and I, which I have forgotten because the temples are closed).

The Traveler

I have no idea where you get that from.  If that is "for the record", then I would question those signing your temple recommends.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/statement-word-of-wisdom-august-2019

 

Quote

The Word of Wisdom is a law of health for the physical and spiritual benefit of God's children. It includes instruction about what foods are good for us and those substances to avoid. Over time, Church leaders have provided additional instruction on those things that are encouraged or forbidden by the Word of Wisdom, and have taught that substances that are destructive, habit-forming or addictive should be avoided.

In recent publications for Church members, Church leaders have clarified that several substances are prohibited by the Word of Wisdom, including vaping or e-cigarettes, green tea, and coffee-based products. They also have cautioned that substances such as marijuana and opioids should be used only for medicinal purposes as prescribed by a competent physician.

 

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34 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I have no idea where you get that from.  If that is "for the record", then I would question those signing your temple recommends.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/statement-word-of-wisdom-august-2019

 

 

Very interesting - thank you for the information.  6 years ago my bishop was in the business of green tea (here in Utah).  Our ward has been split - I use to be his home teacher (back in the day such existed).  I will have to bring up this discussion the next time we meet.

 

The Traveler

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4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Very interesting - thank you for the information.  6 years ago my bishop was in the business of green tea (here in Utah).  Our ward has been split - I use to be his home teacher (back in the day such existed).  I will have to bring up this discussion the next time we meet.

 

The Traveler

I was very glad they came out with that clarification.   I'd had several people tell me it was OK.  As a new member, I'm glad I got in the habit of researching things for myself.

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On 8/23/2020 at 8:27 PM, Traveler said:

Very interesting - thank you for the information.  6 years ago my bishop was in the business of green tea (here in Utah).  Our ward has been split - I use to be his home teacher (back in the day such existed).  I will have to bring up this discussion the next time we meet.

 

The Traveler

 

On 8/23/2020 at 8:32 PM, Grunt said:

I was very glad they came out with that clarification.   I'd had several people tell me it was OK.  As a new member, I'm glad I got in the habit of researching things for myself.

I just want to commend both of you for sharing disparate positions and in humility working with each-other's responses. @Traveler this could have easily been a time to dig in and double down on your position, but instead you recognized the possibility that you have been operating with misinformation. @Grunt you could have easily gone down the path of calling @Traveler derogatory names along while bolstering your position with authoritative sources, but instead you gently put forth a separate set of facts that you have based your decisions on and let Traveler do with the information what he will.

Well-played both of you!

 

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As for the green tea in supplements issue I have often wished that more clarification be given on that front, but I can see why leaving it to individual agency is also a fine idea. I can see the argument from both sides. On the one hand, it is an extract from a particular plant, but not the plant itself, and not being used in the hot drink form, for what that's worth. In this way, it might really be looked at more like taking vitamin C which is also a component of tea. Usually, EGCG is the main compound being referred to as green tea extract and it can be found in other foods such as apples - so does the fact that it was extracted from green tea make it wrong to ingest in and of itself when it's no longer part of the tea? 

On the flip side, I completely understand the desire to avoid it as well. Modern revelation has made it clear that coffee and tea are what is referred to specifically by hot drinks, so even if it's not being had in a hot drink form it's still coffee or tea, at least insofar as say having an iced tea or frozen coffee treat. If it's processed, at what point does it (or is there a point) where it would no longer be coffee or tea? Might just be best to avoid it altogether. This position can be strengthened by the idea that for years caffeine was viewed as the culprit, but that may have been a case of members looking to scientifically validate what the lord has said and have nothing to do with what we've been commanded. To my knowledge, we have no specific chemical in coffee or tea that has been validated as the reason to avoid it, so in not knowing what components are the issue, perhaps it's best to avoid anything and everything to do with it. 

While I can understand both sides, I personally opt to avoid supplements with green tea extract or EGCG knowing it was most likely sourced from green tea, but sometimes it can be a real pain because it's in so many things and has caused me to have to find new sources as it's been added to formulations I used to use and enjoy.

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1 hour ago, SpiritDragon said:

 

I just want to commend both of you for sharing disparate positions and in humility working with each-other's responses. @Traveler this could have easily been a time to dig in and double down on your position, but instead you recognized the possibility that you have been operating with misinformation. @Grunt you could have easily gone down the path of calling @Traveler derogatory names along while bolstering your position with authoritative sources, but instead you gently put forth a separate set of facts that you have based your decisions on and let Traveler do with the information what he will.

Well-played both of you!

 

Pound sand, mutton chops

 

 

😁

Edited by Grunt

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On 8/21/2020 at 6:39 AM, Traveler said:

 A well meaning prominent member of the ward and the ward leadership one Sunday engaged my brother about his rebellious nature and too long hair.  They were intent on standing for true doctrine and calling my brother to repentance.  As their discussion became heated - obviously because of the sarcasm of my brother.   This good member asked my brother why if he thinks as he does - why come to church where obviously he did not fit in or belong.

My brother has never been back to church since....

The reason I am telling this story is because I believe there are things more important than doctrine and being right about every point of doctrine.  I honestly do not know how Christ will judge my brother but my prayers are that the Savior will show him mercy as he (my brother) has been merciful and kind towards others.  He is a very strong willed person but he has never rejected someone of a different opinion or hinted that he is not a friend or that they do not belong. 

 

Alma 39:11
"..for when they saw your conduct they would not believe in my words."

My mission president shared this with us to show the responsibility we had to not only share the gospel but to not deter anyone from it due to any irreverent behavior. In Alma it was Corinatons pursuit of "harlots", For us in our mission it meant every little thing pertaining to breaking the smallest of rules like being on time to everything, always dressing properly, never having contention etc..

I use this story from my mission to show that the member in leadership had the higher responsibility, he will be held accountable for his action/words toward your brother. No one is perfect and Im sure that the members many good deeds will out weight the bad ones but at the very least Im sure the Lord will take into account this incident on your brothers behalf. 

Members being offended at church is a way to common thing and that is why I feel the direction we are heading toward is less church and more God.

Edited by priesthoodpower

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1 hour ago, priesthoodpower said:

less church and more God.

For this statement to have any meaning at all requires a forced dichotomy.  The Church is the Inn.  The Good Samaritan is Christ.  That is how things are designed.

Take away the Inn (flaws and all) what will you replace it with?  The Twitter of Bill Gates of Latter-day Millennials?  I can see how well that will go over.

Edited by Carborendum

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

For this statement to have any meaning at all requires a forced dichotomy.  The Church is the Inn.  The Good Samaritan is Christ.  That is how things are designed.

Take away the Inn (flaws and all) what will you replace it with?  The Twitter of Bill Gates of Latter-day Millennials?  I can see how well that will go over.

I call it the pendulum swing.  Yes I realize that needs to be explained.  We are suppose to be on the strait and narrow path.  But some time, individually, as families, and as a church we can stray from the path.  That is when the watchmen (The prophets and apostles) do their job and push us back in the right direction.  However many take the current warning and effectively ignore all the other warning and scriptures.  This means they go to the another extreme.  They do not land on the strait and narrow path but they might be able to wave to it as they cross over it.

In this case our watchmen have been strongly pushing the Family and Individual gospel studies aspect of the Gospel.  Maybe they saw us straying thinking the church aspect was all we needed, Or maybe they foresaw the Church aspect being shutdown/greatly limited due to COVID.

Either way now we are seeing the pendulum swing the other direction.  Members of the Church forgetting/ minimizing the fact that they Lord and his Gospel requires us to gather together beyond family. (Currently we are being forced not to gather by the Goverment mandates on COVID that is not on us, but on them, and the church is working that as best it can)

The simple fact is the gospel has always being a hybrid Individual, Family, Church thing.  And all parts in proper balance are required of the Lord.  Those member who think and acting as if the Church is no longer important or necessary are just as wrong minded as those that mistakenly think the church is all we needed.

As for the failing of leaders... Yes it happens and yes they will be held accountable.  But the simple fact the sins of one do not excuse the sins of another.   Alma's son behavior did not transfer the sins of the disbelieving on to his own head. That sin remained firmly on them, rather he added to the sum total of collected sins with sins of his own.  Alma called his son to repentance as he needed to, but that did not kept the others from being condemned for not believing... no matter what justification they used.

Everyone (except Christ) sins.  This makes the church a hospital for sinners.  Sadly to many people when they see the sins of there follow church members/leaders forget this and use it to justify doing whatever sin they really wished for anyway.

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17 hours ago, Carborendum said:

For this statement to have any meaning at all requires a forced dichotomy.  The Church is the Inn.  The Good Samaritan is Christ.  That is how things are designed.

Take away the Inn (flaws and all) what will you replace it with?  The Twitter of Bill Gates of Latter-day Millennials?  I can see how well that will go over.

Not remove the church, just less of the traditional "Social" way of worship which we have come to call sunday church. LDS think the only way we can serve others is to go to church once a week and serve our own. That is a selfish church and a mindset that needs to change in order for the church to grow immensely as God wants it too (fill all corners of the earth). 

Less face to face and more virtual, more home. Home is the new church. Every one of the 8 billion people on this earth have a home, if home is church then church is for everyone and God would smile.

Once again as I shared in another post, I recently completed that last 2 yrs of my I.S. bachelors degree (started it 20yrs ago) from home without meeting one single cohort or administrator. My counselor followed up with me once a week via email, had I had any problems or if I was struggling with anything she would be available via phone but I was blowing past every course with flying colors. I had opportunities to join course chats to speak with other classmates and professors but I really didnt need that extra attention. If in-class, on-campus courses were my only option I would have never gone back to complete my degree for many reasons. 

These colleges and universities are finding ways, creating ways, to get their programs out to everyone. Schooling at my age and circumstance "is not for me".

or was it?! 

..it was! The college just needed to adjust. The degree and courses are still the same, the process evolves. 

So why is it that LDS folks say the gospel is for everyone as we faithfully look forward to converting and baptizing the world, but when we proselyte and talk to our neighbors they say "it isn't for me." Not to mention there may be more people leaving the church every year then being baptized, their reasons? "it isnt for me."

The gospel and God is for everyone, we are failing in the process. Covid is a wakeup call.

 

 

Edited by priesthoodpower

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12 hours ago, estradling75 said:

The simple fact is the gospel has always being a hybrid Individual, Family, Church thing.  And all parts in proper balance are required of the Lord.  Those member who think and acting as if the Church is no longer important or necessary are just as wrong minded as those that mistakenly think the church is all we needed.

 

The temple building is necessary, the chapel bldg is not (as proven by covid when sacrament was being conducted in homes).
The bishop is necessary, the RS pres, EQ pres etc. is not.

Living a covenant life only require a bishop and a temple, am I right?

 

 

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2 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

LDS think the only way we can serve others is to go to church once a week and serve our own. That is a selfish church and a mindset that needs to change in order for the church to grow immensely as God wants it too (fill all corners of the earth). 

Do you never tire of leveling false accusations at the Latter-day Saints? You would do well to spend less time finding fault (especially fault that isn't there, as you find above) and more time pondering how you can better emulate the many excellent examples all around you in the Restored Church.

2 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Home is the new church.

In making this statement you betray your deep ignorance about what the Restored Church is and how it interfaces with the family.

2 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Once again as I shared in another post, I recently completed that last 2 yrs of my I.S. bachelors degree (started it 20yrs ago) from home without meeting one single cohort or administrator. My counselor followed up with me once a week via email, had I had any problems or if I was struggling with anything she would be available via phone but I was blowing past every course with flying colors. I had opportunities to join course chats to speak with other classmates and professors but I really didnt need that extra attention. If in-class, on-campus courses were my only option I would have never gone back to complete my degree for many reasons.

Congratulations on achieving this laudable goal. But the parallel you draw is deeply flawed.

2 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

So why is it that LDS folks say the gospel is for everyone as we faithfully look forward to converting and baptizing the world, but when we proselyte and talk to our neighbors they say "it isn't for me."

Because Christ's sheep hear his voice, and not everyone is Christ's sheep.

2 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Not to mention there may be more people leaving the church every year then being baptized, their reasons? "it isnt for me."

By all possible means, please give us some reliable statistic--ANY reliable statistic--supporting your outrageous claim.

2 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

The gospel and God is for everyone, we are failing in the process. Covid is a wakeup call.

When a General Authority or other authorized leader wants to accuse the general body of Christ of failing in their duties, I will sit up and listen closely. When some random internet nutjob wants to proclaim his personal and absurd judgment on his fellow Saints, I will give that criticism all the careful analysis it deserves. Your ark-steadying is unappreciated.

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2 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

The temple building is necessary, the chapel bldg is not (as proven by covid when sacrament was being conducted in homes).
The bishop is necessary, the RS pres, EQ pres etc. is not.

PP, your ignorance knows no bounds. You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

2 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Living a covenant life only require a bishop and a temple, am I right?

You are most obviously not right. I do not expect for even a small moment that you will recognize or acknowledge your howling wrongness, but for the record, you're wrong, as wrong as you can possibly be.

You are treading a dangerous path, where you freely ignore your own weighty sins and filthiness and instead concentrate on finding fault with those who should be your fellow Saints. Your actions will result in deep, lasting pain for yourself and for many who love and look to you for example. You have laid your private misactions open to public view, as you have tried to justify them. You have heaped condemnation on your fellow Saints, including the leadership of the kingdom of God. These things are destructive to what you claim you're trying to accomplish.

I encourage you to rethink your entire approach to the gospel. You are doing it wrong. For your own sake and the sake of those who love you, please stop.

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