Election and Leadership


prisonchaplain
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I suspect that there are many on both sides of the political spectrum who favor the VPs over the presidential candidates. For some, the VP is a tipping point. Democrats who fear that Biden may be too old, too moderate, etc. may find that with Harris as VP there's just enough to pull the lever. Likewise for religious conservatives who find in Trump rather poor moral/ethical and religious leadership. Having Pence on the ticket can be just enough to make the ballot worth marking.

My more basic concern is that we are electing presidents. That has to be our primary focus. Who will lead us better--with China, with North Korea, with the Middle East conflict, with race-baiting politics, with social order, with so many issues? Our choice this year may not be between good and bad leadership, but between that which is strong vs. that which is weak...

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15 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I suspect that there are many on both sides of the political spectrum who favor the VPs over the presidential candidates. For some, the VP is a tipping point. Democrats who fear that Biden may be too old, too moderate, etc. may find that with Harris as VP there's just enough to pull the lever. Likewise for religious conservatives who find in Trump rather poor moral/ethical and religious leadership. Having Pence on the ticket can be just enough to make the ballot worth marking.

My more basic concern is that we are electing presidents. That has to be our primary focus. Who will lead us better--with China, with North Korea, with the Middle East conflict, with race-baiting politics, with social order, with so many issues? Our choice this year may not be between good and bad leadership, but between that which is strong vs. that which is weak...

It seems that the sad lesson of politics is that there is such an effort to deceive so that what appears to be a choice at the surface is somewhat different from what lies deep below the surface.  I have become less concerned with presidents and vice presidents as I have concern for the will, discipline and desires of the people.  I see great conflict among the people regardless of who is elected - not just within our nation but throughout the world.  If I did not know better I would think this is the end of times.

 

The Traveler

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20 hours ago, Traveler said:

It seems that the sad lesson of politics is that there is such an effort to deceive so that what appears to be a choice at the surface is somewhat different from what lies deep below the surface.  I have become less concerned with presidents and vice presidents as I have concern for the will, discipline and desires of the people.  I see great conflict among the people regardless of who is elected - not just within our nation but throughout the world.  If I did not know better I would think this is the end of times.

 

The Traveler

I think it is the end of times (or at least those times right before the Millennium).  Whether I'll live long enough to make it to the Millennium is another matter (my patriarchal blessing says nothing about me being at the millennium, at least from what I understand it to say). 

I have had friends who have supposedly had that blessing (meaning they said they had it, but I never read their actual blessing), some who passed on (So it may have meant in a resurrected form or maybe another form during that time, but they will be there), but I don't see it in my blessing.  I think I am living in the last days right now before the Savior comes, but it still may be a ways off (far off enough that I'll be dead before it occurs, or perhaps events leading up to it will also cause my death).

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8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I think it is the end of times (or at least those times right before the Millennium).  Whether I'll live long enough to make it to the Millennium is another matter (my patriarchal blessing says nothing about me being at the millennium, at least from what I understand it to say). 

I have had friends who have supposedly had that blessing (meaning they said they had it, but I never read their actual blessing), some who passed on (So it may have meant in a resurrected form or maybe another form during that time, but they will be there), but I don't see it in my blessing.  I think I am living in the last days right now before the Savior comes, but it still may be a ways off (far off enough that I'll be dead before it occurs, or perhaps events leading up to it will also cause my death).

I wondered 20+ years ago if Y2K may the beginning of the Millennium or the 7th thousand year dispensation.   I broke down scriptures by the numbers beginning with Adam.  I studied several possible mathematical calculations - including the concept of the 11th hour marked by the restoration of the Church.  What I discovered was a 270 year discrepancy in pinpointing the year the millennium should begin.   I found our current Gregorian Calendar to be off by 4 to 8 years.  I thought I was on to something with the discovery of the Enoch calendar referenced in the Book of Enoch found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and its relationship the the Mayan calendar.   I speculated that even if we did not know the hour or the day - that perhaps we could determine the year.

I will not say that the whole exercise was fruitless - I learned a lot about ancient calendars and had fun trying to understand scripture about the last days.  I have even researched Ezra's Eagle.  Currently I have nothing to point to and say something definite so I speak by pure speculation when I say with some conviction that we are likely at most 150 years from the second coming.   We are well within the 270 year discrepancy and so I speculate that perhaps we could see things wind up in as little as 3 years or less.  I have pondered many time, what part, if any I would like to play in the events of the Last-days.  During my mission I was somewhat keen on listing the false churches to be destroyed.  I have had a change of heart about that.  I have often thought I would desire to be in the middle of things and have so made petition through prayer.   Mostly I had thought I would face the really hard trials of the last-days in my youth.  My patriarchal blessing hints at having a roll.  But, like you I am getting older every year and I am slowing down.  So lately my prayers have changed.  Mostly I wonder if I will be an example or a voice of encouragement of like you have suggested - involved from the other side of the veil.   I have changed from trying to determine what I would like to do; to what, if anything, the L-rd would have me do.  Whatever - I am excited to see what will happen next.  I have a feeling that the next 5 years will be interesting.

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

It’s my opinion that we aren’t anywhere near the second coming and millennium. I would guess maybe 15 more generations? Perhaps more?

I am of the same opinion, but only time will tell.

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5 hours ago, Fether said:

It’s my opinion that we aren’t anywhere near the second coming and millennium. I would guess maybe 15 more generations? Perhaps more?

It's my opinion we are much much closer than that.

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11 hours ago, pam said:

It's my opinion we are much much closer than that.

I agree with you but I think it is all in how one looks at the world and the prophesies.   For example, if one looks at the cycles of evil they will discover historical evidence that since the resurrection of Christ there have been "Christian" historians that have believed that the second coming would occur within two or three generations.  And that evil has brought about even worse things than we are currently experiencing.  Realizing that this has been going on for 2,000 years I began to think that we are not even close - similar to some of the posters of this forum.  But then I had an epiphany a couple of years ago based on two events in my life.  One was the return of my brother from his second mission (both missions were to the same calling) in Eastern Europe.  The other event was a personal visit (pilgrimage) of my wife and I to the Holy Land (Jerusalem / Israel) that included visits with prominent Jewish groups.

I began to look at prophesies of the last days differently.  Instead of looking for the rise of evil - I began to look at the prophesies of divine preparations of a covenant people as the foundation of Saints that will be called up by Christ at his second coming to oversee with Christ the establishment of the Millennial Society.   I had thought that there were a few events among the Saints that were perhaps at least a generation or two from completion.  It was my brother to said that most of what I thought was a ways off - had already occurred or was currently taking place (with very few exceptions).  The exceptions, I realized, could all occur within a year.

I have seen great changes in the Church during my life time.  In my youth I thought Utah was Zion and where the Saints would be gathered.  I traveled a great deal for may years in my work.  I discovered that there is a liken unto levain of Saints strategically placed throughout the world (and especially throughout the Americas and Israel).  For example I was very surprised to learn that the branch presidents in Israel report directly the the quorum of the 12 Apostles. 

I will admit that I do not know any "secret" information.  But I do know that the brethren seem to be working and communicating as though there is some urgency to complete or engage in an great number of "things" concerning our covenants.  I am suggesting we put ourselves, our marriages, our families and all such covenants (especially our spiritual witnesses and connections) in order.  I believe it ought to be done before this year has concluded.  I do not know if this is a last chance but I believe that there is much urgency to get one's life and covenants (sacred things) in order.

 

The Traveler 

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14 hours ago, pam said:

It's my opinion we are much much closer than that.

My reasoning is that it is still far away is because a pre-requisite to the Second Coming is that the gospel will be preached untoevery nation, kindred, tongue, and people before that happens.  Right now we aren't even close and at the current pace, that's going to take a long time.  I guess there could be a huge world-wide change though that could change all of that though so I admit that I could be wrong.

Edited by Scott
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1 hour ago, Scott said:

My reasoning is that it is still far away is because a pre-requisite to the Second Coming is that the gospel will be preached untoevery nation, kindred, tongue, and people before that happens.  Right now we aren't even close and at the current pace, that's going to take a long time.  I guess there could be a huge world-wide change though that could change all of that though so I admit that I could be wrong.

The thing is...it doesn't necessarily mean that missionaries will go to every nation, tongue and people.  We've been told that the gospel would be preached from the rooftops.  Well it already is.  With satellite dishes that can reach people all over the world.  General conference is broadcast to the world.  So I don't think it's far fetched that it's closer than most would think.  So many missionaries right now are teaching from social media and the internet right now with COVID-19 going on.  The big push with missionaries right now is to use social media to their advantage.  I have seen more videos produced by missionaries out in the field teaching gospel principles than ever before.

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9 minutes ago, pam said:

With satellite dishes that can reach people all over the world.

Most of the world does not have access to satellite dishes. 

Approximately 3.2 billion people have no access to the internet.  Of the people that do have access to the internet, lds sites are not available to a huge amount of those people.   I have been unable to access church materials from a lot of countries, even with an internet connection.

Quote

General conference is broadcast to the world.

It is broadcast to about half the countries in the world and usually only in certain areas of those countries.

Also, keep in mind that D&C says the following:

All people will hear the fulness of the gospel in their own language

It is estimated that there are at least 7117 languages in the world today.  We're currently at 110 languages that the Book of Mormon is translated in as of now.  It has taken 190 years to get to 110 language translations.   We still have more than seven thousand to go (of course maybe we'll get the urim and thummim back or use the seer stones?). 

9 minutes ago, pam said:

So I don't think it's far fetched that it's closer than most would think. 

It may be.  Time will tell.  At the current rate though, even taking in account the rapidly expanding digital age, it's going to take a long time. I'm sure the rate of translation and spreading the gospel will accellerate quickly as time goes on.  I still think it's going to take a long time though.  As I said before though, I could be wrong.

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I think it has already been available to those who are seeking in every nation and tongue.  The bigger things to see now are to when the two prophets appear and when Jerusalem builds a temple.  Beyond that, I think most of the revelations could be considered fulfilled at this point from a certain point of view.

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

How?

If you do a Google search on any gospel topic you will find several references to the teaching of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the first page - often occupying the number one position.  The internet is indeed available to every nation, kindred, tongue and people.

@JohnsonJones made references to Jerusalem - but here is a thought.  Anciently we have two great city states.  One was called the City of Enoch and was presided over by the High Priest Enoch.  The other was the city Salem that was presided over by the High Priest Melchizedek.  Both cities were translated and taken unto G-d but will return - perhaps very soon before the return of Christ.  My theory and speculation is that the City of Enoch was not far from Adam-ondi-Ahman.   Perhaps near what is now known as Kansas City Missouri.  The city Salem, I have speculated was at the place we now call Jerusalem.  There is a temple associated with each city and I speculate that when the cities return they will come complete with a fully operational temple.  It may be quite possible that acquiring ground, obtaining architectural design, permits and construction would all be unnecessary and a functioning temple accomplished (restored) within minutes.  In other words - very quickly.

As for the two prophets in Jerusalem - they may already be there.  We may not know that much of them prior to when they are murdered.   I do not believe that there is good reason to postpone or delay our preparations.   If we are ready by the end of this year then there is no reason to be concerned with whatever comes even if the second coming does not happen for another 100 years or so.  I also think if we are not prepared by the end of this year we will spend however many years it takes - playing catch-up. 

I do not think I want to spend another year like I have this year - being caught completely off guard and surprised by how quickly so many things can change. 

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

The internet is indeed available to every nation, kindred, tongue and people.

No.  As I pointed out above, 3.2 billion people have no access to the internet.  Also, the church website is censored in a lot of the places that do have internet. 

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The preacher in me is always happy when people look at current events and begin discussing the 2nd coming. I continue to take the advice given by my pastor, when I was growing up: Be ready to go at any time, but plan to live 100 years.

And so... given that China may have intentionally allowed (or even sent) COVID-19 outside its borders, given that China is again threatening to invade Taiwan, given that N. Korea is developing nuclear weapons, given that a Middle East deal has just been brokered, and given that domestic mob violence is being given aid and comfort by one side of the political spectrum...even those of moderate thinking have to wonder if clumsy, brutish leadership (from their POV) is still better than the placid alternative.

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6 hours ago, Scott said:

No.  As I pointed out above, 3.2 billion people have no access to the internet.  Also, the church website is censored in a lot of the places that do have internet. 

It's not so much as that, as how we see scriptural prophesies occasionally fulfilled.  When it says every nation, kindred and tongue, that does not necessarily mean everyone that exists on the earth or even in a nation.  It indicates that at some time people of a nation or kindred or tongue have had that opportunity.

Brigham Young once prophesied that Blacks would receive the priesthood, but only after everyone else had already had the opportunity.  That this would occur after the fulfillment of the idea of the prophecy that every one else had the opportunity to accept the gospel.  If we believe he was a prophet (and I do), then, as Blacks received the priesthood in the late 70s, that at that point, this prophesy had thus been fulfilled.

How it has been is probably more on us to figure out than the Lord to prove to us.  The internet did not even exist at that time.  However, with the way travel occurred, and the way things happened, I can believe that the opportunity was given to every various group out there, if not to each individual in those groups (and some of those groups would be quite large, for example, Brazil had the gospel preached in it, but indigenous tribes did not and may never even have heard the gospel, but it was in the nation over which others had governance of which, even in ignorance, they were a part of). 

The Book of Mormon has flooded the earth, and though it is not in every language, it is prevalent enough that someone who was guided by inspiration probably could find a copy at some point in their life, even if it is not in their language that they understand natively, or even in their own area of the world. 

In this, it could also be that the gathering is largely fulfilled...which was the purpose of the gospel in many ways.  It was to gather the lost together back into their family, and those were the ones that the voice would go out to...

There are many ways that the prophecies could have been fulfilled, but in the way of the Lord rather than how men expect it to have been fulfilled.

We also see this in the Lord's mortal ministry.  The Jews were expecting him to come at the apex of Jewish society as a great king and ruler.  They thought that he would be this great military figure of conquest that, if he came during the Roman's occupation, that he would free them from that rule.  More of them felt it would be at a time when the Jewish society and culture was dominant and itself was sieged, but ruling over many others. 

Obviously, this is not how it happened.  However, the prophecies were fulfilled, just not in the way that man had thought they were.  Instead, they were fulfilled in the way the Lord wished them to be.

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5 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

It's not so much as that, as how we see scriptural prophesies occasionally fulfilled.  When it says every nation, kindred and tongue, that does not necessarily mean everyone that exists on the earth or even in a nation.  It indicates that at some time people of a nation or kindred or tongue have had that opportunity.

Brigham Young once prophesied that Blacks would receive the priesthood, but only after everyone else had already had the opportunity.  That this would occur after the fulfillment of the idea of the prophecy that every one else had the opportunity to accept the gospel.  If we believe he was a prophet (and I do), then, as Blacks received the priesthood in the late 70s, that at that point, this prophesy had thus been fulfilled.

How it has been is probably more on us to figure out than the Lord to prove to us.  The internet did not even exist at that time.  However, with the way travel occurred, and the way things happened, I can believe that the opportunity was given to every various group out there, if not to each individual in those groups (and some of those groups would be quite large, for example, Brazil had the gospel preached in it, but indigenous tribes did not and may never even have heard the gospel, but it was in the nation over which others had governance of which, even in ignorance, they were a part of). 

The Book of Mormon has flooded the earth, and though it is not in every language, it is prevalent enough that someone who was guided by inspiration probably could find a copy at some point in their life, even if it is not in their language that they understand natively, or even in their own area of the world. 

In this, it could also be that the gathering is largely fulfilled...which was the purpose of the gospel in many ways.  It was to gather the lost together back into their family, and those were the ones that the voice would go out to...

There are many ways that the prophecies could have been fulfilled, but in the way of the Lord rather than how men expect it to have been fulfilled.

We also see this in the Lord's mortal ministry.  The Jews were expecting him to come at the apex of Jewish society as a great king and ruler.  They thought that he would be this great military figure of conquest that, if he came during the Roman's occupation, that he would free them from that rule.  More of them felt it would be at a time when the Jewish society and culture was dominant and itself was sieged, but ruling over many others. 

Obviously, this is not how it happened.  However, the prophecies were fulfilled, just not in the way that man had thought they were.  Instead, they were fulfilled in the way the Lord wished them to be.

You have touched on several very important ideas concerning scripture.   Thank You.  Perhaps I can add to your thoughts.  Scripture tells us that in dealing with G-d that -- His ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts.  There are a number of prophesies common among the Latter-day Saints that the world does not recognize nor accept.  Some examples are a learned man that cannot read a sealed book or an Ensign being raised in the "top of the mountains".

 I want to touch on a rather touchy subject - which is the attitude of "Looking for a Sign".  This is also known as - I will not believe until I see the sign as I understand believe it ought to be presented.  There is an entire spectrum in this - from doubting Thomas to the idea that only the wicked and adulterous seek after a sign.  In science there is a principle known as Occam's Razor.  There are two principles to Occam's Razor.  First is an accounting for facts and the second is the simplicity or the simplest of the possibilities that account for the facts.   The problem is that bias plays too big a role in accounting for facts and simplicity.   Perhaps the best example of this is demonstrated in sports and the blanket unpopularity of referees.  The original term for those that officiated the ancient Greek Olympic Games - was - cheaters. 

What is the divine purpose of prophesies or signs?  May I suggest two?  The first is a call to repentance - in short to bring about a change of heart among the Saints and all those that are influenced by the Spirit.  The second is a warning to those that have not repented and made or fulfilled their covenant with G-d.   May I suggest something?  May I suggest that when a covenant Saint encounters a sign that in their heart they petition G-d for forgiveness and they make changes in their lives.  But those with hard harts and stiff nicks - they are not influenced by any thought of urgency to repent or change - yet.  Thinking that there is still time.  I think this is quite similar to the thought presented by @prisonchaplain.

The time is near (actually now) - to be loyal and faithful to covenants and to see and understand our time and place differently.

 

The Traveler

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On 8/17/2020 at 7:45 PM, Traveler said:

If we are ready by the end of this year then there is no reason to be concerned with whatever comes even if the second coming does not happen for another 100 years or so.  I also think if we are not prepared by the end of this year we will spend however many years it takes - playing catch-up. 

I do not think I want to spend another year like I have this year - being caught completely off guard and surprised by how quickly so many things can change. 

The Traveler

 

I get the feeling wickedness war and turmoil or God's judgments are coming to America soon.  There will be many judgments poured out upon this world before the LORD comes again in His glory. 

I do not like to date set with the Second Coming but I think we have recently entered the last dispensation in my opinion.  The seventh seal has been opened and the LORD will likely be here within one century.  Presently I have no clue whether I will be here to witness it in flesh and blood.  I would prefer to die in my sleep in about fifteen years with what I have read about the war and terrible judgments that are coming to the Earth.

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On 8/16/2020 at 11:09 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, having personally experienced the last 15 generations, I guess you’d be in a position to know!

I'm not laughing.  :P  

 

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On 8/17/2020 at 9:31 PM, Scott said:
On 8/17/2020 at 7:45 PM, Traveler said:

The internet is indeed available to every nation, kindred, tongue and people.

No.  As I pointed out above, 3.2 billion people have no access to the internet.  Also, the church website is censored in a lot of the places that do have internet. 

The prophecy is "every nation, kindred, tongue and people".  Not "every person".   Old Testament prophets telling this or that town or people to shape up or death and ruin is coming, probably missed some folks.  And death/ruin came anyway.

Name a nation/kindred/tongue/or people that doesn't have internet access by at least someone in that group. 

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Given what is happened to our temples I am looking for the Abomination of Desolation.  The Abomination of Desolation is something prophesied to happen twice.  Once in the Early Christian church, and once in the end times.

Daniel 11:31 and 12:11 tells us when it is set up.

Quote

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

  So we have the daily sacrifice taken away, the Abomination gets set up and we have about 3 and half years of it.

In the early church the Temple handled twice as day sacrifice plus personal worship. Armies surrounded the temple. The sacrifice was stopped, a pig was sacrificed on the altar (an unclean animal) and the armies setup the worship of Zeus in the temple.

It seems very likely a similar event will happen at the end times.  In the past people have wondered what could possibly stop all our temples? (aka the Daily Sacrifice)... Well now we know. Apparently COVID 19 can.  Was this a fluke?  A Warning?  Or is it beginning to be fulfilled?  I have my own opinion on the subject, but we are commanded to be watching for the signs and preparing for his coming.

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2 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

 

I get the feeling wickedness war and turmoil or God's judgments are coming to America soon.  There will be many judgments poured out upon this world before the LORD comes again in His glory. 

I do not like to date set with the Second Coming but I think we have recently entered the last dispensation in my opinion.  The seventh seal has been opened and the LORD will likely be here within one century.  Presently I have no clue whether I will be here to witness it in flesh and blood.  I would prefer to die in my sleep in about fifteen years with what I have read about the war and terrible judgments that are coming to the Earth.

Like I said - I think to be centered on the blessings and protections that G-d will bestow upon his Saints will be for better indicators than the maledictions that are brought upon the wicked.

As to death --- I have determined that we will only get one shot at experiencing death in all eternity.  I envision that in the next life when we meet one another the big question will be, "How did you die?"  Kind of like asking about a major in college.  Anyway, I have thought it would so sad to replay with, "I have no idea how I died - I slept through the whole episode."   I told this to one of my good friends that was not convinced and these were his exact words, "When I die I want to die nice and quiet in my sleep like my uncle Herald.  I certainly do not want to die like the other 50 people on the bus he was driving."  True story.  😉

 

The Traveler

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46 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

The prophecy is "every nation, kindred, tongue and people".  Not "every person".   Old Testament prophets telling this or that town or people to shape up or death and ruin is coming, probably missed some folks.  And death/ruin came anyway.

Name a nation/kindred/tongue/or people that doesn't have internet access by at least someone in that group. 

I believe there is also something along the lines of one of a family and two of a city.  The sad thing about a lot of prophesies in scripture is that quite often we do not fully understand the symbolism until the event has passed.

 

The Traveler

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