Election and Leadership


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3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

The prophecy is "every nation, kindred, tongue and people".  Not "every person". 

Agreed.  Don't forget though that everyone must be taught in their own language:

 D&C 90:11 For it shall come to pass in that day, that every man shall hear the fulness of the gospel in his own tongue, and in his own language, through those who are ordained unto this power, by the administration of the Comforter, shed forth upon them for the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So you are right that only a few people from each kindred or tongue could get taught and ordained and then come teach the gospel in their own language and ordain and teach others.   That's (in my own eyes, I could be wrong) going to take a long time.

And you are right that it is every single person.  But it is every single language (at least according to God and Joseph Smith) and there are at least  7117 indentifable languages in this world at this time, and likely many more.

Also even in places where the internet does exist, many countries block the Church websites, though this could change quickly. 

Quote

Name a nation/kindred/tongue/or people that doesn't have internet access by at least someone in that group. 

Likely all of these would fit in that category: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontacted_peoples

It's a sure bet that the Sentinelese (a kindred, tounge, and people) on some of the islands in the Indian Ocean have no one that has access to the internet: 

https://www.survivalinternational.org/tribes/sentinelese

Here's a pretty good summary of what is known of the Sentinelese if you want to read it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese#:~:text=The Sentinelese%2C also known as,broader class of Andamanese people.

Neither do any of the tribes on the other islands.

As another example, Papua New Guinea has at least 851 identified languages.   In the mountain valleys, usually each valley has it's one distinct language, not just dialect.  Most of them have no written language, only a spoken one.  Indiginious tribes are not counted in literacy rates.  Although 11% of New Guinea has at least some internet access, these areatn places like Port Moresby or Mount Hagen.  Many of the mountain tribes aren't even aware of technology.  Also, how does someone without a written language use the interenet? 

In the Himalayas, a lot of villages have no access to the internet or roads.  In fact they are hundreds of miles from them by foot.  Most of them are aware of places like Kathmandu, Pokara, Manali, etc., so it is possible  that some of the people have walked the hundreds of miles (without roads) to these places and saw the interenet, but I seriously doubt that it is every kindred with at least one person doing so.   I serious doubt it in the more remote areas in places like the Jumla Himal or the areas northwest of Bremeh have at least one person that has access or has seen the internet.

There are several uncontacted tribes in the Amazon and it's a sure thing that they don't have access to the internet: 

https://www.survivalinternational.org/tribes/uncontacted-brazil

Many of the nomatic tribes in Africa don't either.  What are the chances that anyone in regions such as Kalu Kitting, Fuldo, Golo, or Killing has every seen or had access to the internet?  Very little I think.

As far as the remote tribal areas of the world go, we probably shouldn't visit them at this time (until we are told to by revelation).  They aren't immune to our diseases and one visit could wipe them out.
 

Edited by Scott
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On 8/19/2020 at 4:13 PM, Traveler said:

Like I said - I think to be centered on the blessings and protections that G-d will bestow upon his Saints will be for better indicators than the maledictions that are brought upon the wicked.

I hope my understanding is wrong of future events.  War being everywhere in most of the world would be a terrible thing to live through.  If the United States is to have another war like the Civil War that happened in the 1860s I would not want to be involved in the fighting and killing.  It was the worst time in American history in my opinion.

Edited by Still_Small_Voice
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1 hour ago, Scott said:

Agreed.  Don't forget though that everyone must be taught in their own language:

 D&C 90:11 For it shall come to pass in that day, that every man shall hear the fulness of the gospel in his own tongue, and in his own language, through those who are ordained unto this power, by the administration of the Comforter, shed forth upon them for the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

 

This scripture does not support your position.  Verse 10 talks about the Day that the Lord shall come in power (aka 2nd Coming) Verse 11 says "IN that day" not BEFORE that day.  Thus the logical read of 10 and 11 is that the Lord comes in Power and then the whole world gets taught. The Lord coming in Power and setting up a thousand year reign (aka Millennium aka 1000 years is a day to God) make it not only possible, but also tells us what kind of work we are going to be doing for a thousand years.  Most of the scriptures that talk about the everyone being converted, everyone hearing the gospel, everyone confessing Christ are talking about Millennial events not precursors to the Second Coming.

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2 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I hope my understanding is wrong of future events.  War being everywhere in most of the world would be a terrible thing to live through.  If the United States is to have another war like the Civil War that happened in the 1860s I would not want to be involved in the fighting and killing.  It was the worst time in American history in my opinion.

Interesting you mentioned the Civil war in the 1860's.  If you follow history; the Saints suffered a great deal when they were driven from Missouri with an "Extermination Order" and then forced to leave the USA.  But Missouri was located such that many historians believe that Missouri was the greatest hit and suffered the most by the Civil War.  Though it many not have seemed so at the time - the Saints were removed from harm.  I believe it was the providence of G-d that preserved the Saints.  It is interesting to me that this was also a time of large scale apostasy from the Church.  I believe that all this - including the move to Utah is a type and shadow of how the L-rd will preserve and protect his covenant Saints from the calamities yet to come.  I also believe that it will seem that the Saints are suffering because of wickedness trying to drive them out and exclude them from freedoms and liberties.  We see this happening as well in scripture and especially the Book of Mormon.  When the righteous are driven out - those that remain - that drove them out - suffer greatly and at times (pending their wickedness) are completely destroyed. 

As I understand - there will be a great division in the Last-day.  Symbolically this is represented as a division between Zion and Babylon.  And as I said - I believe it important to know and identify the signs whereby the righteous (meaning those of the covenant) are preserved.  The promise of the covenant is that the righteous (meaning those of the covenant) need not fear.

 

The Traveler

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43 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

 Most of the scriptures that talk about the everyone being converted, everyone hearing the gospel, everyone confessing Christ are talking about Millennial events not precursors to the Second Coming.

I have always thought that it will happen before the Second Coming.

A quick search on the Church Website reveals the following:

What are the most important events that must take place before Christ returns?

The preaching of the gospel in all the world. It is the destiny of the gospel restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith to be preached among every nation, kindred, tongue, and people before Christ returns. Those of every nation, family, and language must have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ as he is testified of in the Book of Mormon (3 Ne. 21:11). Included are the peoples of Russia, China, India, and the Moslem nations. All are to be taught the restored gospel in their own language and by their own peoples (D&C 90:11Alma 29:8). In all these nations will be found congregations of Latter-day Saints “armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory” (1 Ne. 14:12, 14). It would appear that great changes must take place among the governments of men before such prophecies can be fulfilled.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1986/06/questions-and-answers/questions-and-answers?lang=eng

1. The preaching of the gospel in all the world. It is the destiny of the gospel restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith to be preached among every nation, kindred, tongue, and people before Christ returns.  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1985/10/q-and-a-questions-and-answers/what-are-the-most-important-events-that-must-take-place-before-christ-returns?lang=eng
 

This General Conference report from Joseph Fielding Smith says that we will have congregations in all nations before the Second Coming, not just one person seeing it on the internet:

The gospel is for all men, and the Church shall be established everywhere, in all nations, even to the ends of the earth, before the second coming of the Son of Man. He has set his hand the second time to gather Israel into the Church, and this time he will raise up congregations of his saints in all nations.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-joseph-fielding-smith/chapter-26-preparing-for-the-coming-of-our-lord?lang=eng

Mark E Peterson as an apostle:

The scripture says that we are to preach the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, and then shall the end come. Then will the Savior come.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/mark-e-petersen/great-prologue/

Ezra Taft Benson:

This commission to take the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people is one of the signs by which believers will recognize the nearness of the Savior’s return to earth.  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1984/04/our-commission-to-take-the-gospel-to-all-the-world?lang=eng

Then again, angels might help out (Revelation 4) and prophets and others can speak with the gift a tongues and it might happen sooner than it seems.

I still think the second coming won't happen for a while, but as I said I could be wrong.   

The temples in Jerusalem and Jackson County need to be built too.   

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1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

 

This scripture does not support your position.  Verse 10 talks about the Day that the Lord shall come in power (aka 2nd Coming) Verse 11 says "IN that day" not BEFORE that day.  Thus the logical read of 10 and 11 is that the Lord comes in Power and then the whole world gets taught. The Lord coming in Power and setting up a thousand year reign (aka Millennium aka 1000 years is a day to God) make it not only possible, but also tells us what kind of work we are going to be doing for a thousand years.  Most of the scriptures that talk about the everyone being converted, everyone hearing the gospel, everyone confessing Christ are talking about Millennial events not precursors to the Second Coming.

Thank you for your post.  I have attempted to understand the Last-day and it appears that there are 3 specific things that will occur.  #1. The destruction of the wicked.  #2 The return in Glory of Christ and #3. The ushering in or beginning of the Millennium or 1,000 years of peace.  Generally, it seems, that most think that the 3 events will occur simultaneously.   I am not sure that such must be the case.

 

The Traveler

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8 minutes ago, Scott said:

I have always thought that it will happen before the Second Coming.

A quick search on the Church Website reveals the following:

What are the most important events that must take place before Christ returns?

The preaching of the gospel in all the world. It is the destiny of the gospel restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith to be preached among every nation, kindred, tongue, and people before Christ returns. Those of every nation, family, and language must have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ as he is testified of in the Book of Mormon (3 Ne. 21:11). Included are the peoples of Russia, China, India, and the Moslem nations. All are to be taught the restored gospel in their own language and by their own peoples (D&C 90:11Alma 29:8). In all these nations will be found congregations of Latter-day Saints “armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory” (1 Ne. 14:12, 14). It would appear that great changes must take place among the governments of men before such prophecies can be fulfilled.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1986/06/questions-and-answers/questions-and-answers?lang=eng

1. The preaching of the gospel in all the world. It is the destiny of the gospel restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith to be preached among every nation, kindred, tongue, and people before Christ returns.  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1985/10/q-and-a-questions-and-answers/what-are-the-most-important-events-that-must-take-place-before-christ-returns?lang=eng
 

This General Conference report from Joseph Fielding Smith says that we will have congregations in all nations before the Second Coming, not just one person seeing it on the internet:

The gospel is for all men, and the Church shall be established everywhere, in all nations, even to the ends of the earth, before the second coming of the Son of Man. He has set his hand the second time to gather Israel into the Church, and this time he will raise up congregations of his saints in all nations.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-joseph-fielding-smith/chapter-26-preparing-for-the-coming-of-our-lord?lang=eng

Mark E Peterson as an apostle:

The scripture says that we are to preach the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, and then shall the end come. Then will the Savior come.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/mark-e-petersen/great-prologue/

Ezra Taft Benson:

This commission to take the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people is one of the signs by which believers will recognize the nearness of the Savior’s return to earth.  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1984/04/our-commission-to-take-the-gospel-to-all-the-world?lang=eng

Then again, angels might help out (Revelation 4) and prophets and others can speak with the gift a tongues and it might happen sooner than it seems.

I still think the second coming won't happen for a while, but as I said I could be wrong.   

The temples in Jerusalem and Jackson County need to be built too.   

Just a side note -- you may notice that I do not completely spell out G-d.  This is a key word use in some countries to prevent or identify someone from finding or copying religious material - like our posts.  I use to be much more active in other forums and would be notified by individuals in places that do not allow missionaries, that wanted more information.  There are tools that will translate so they can read in their own language.

As for the temples in Jerusalem and Jackson County - did you see my post about the City of Enoch and Salem (that were translated) returning - with temples already constructed?  I am not saying that all this is how it must be - just suggesting it as a possibility.

 

The Traveler

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30 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Just a side note -- you may notice that I do not completely spell out G-d.  This is a key word use in some countries to prevent or identify someone from finding or copying religious material - like our posts. 

I didn't think of that, but good to know.
 

Quote

As for the temples in Jerusalem and Jackson County - did you see my post about the City of Enoch and Salem (that were translated) returning - with temples already constructed?  I am not saying that all this is how it must be - just suggesting it as a possibility.

Interesting perspective, but we were commanded to build the temple so it would seem that it still hasn't been built?  That's an interesting perspective though.   I have heard someone say that "there is more than one Jerusalem", another interesting perpective.  

 

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8 hours ago, Scott said:

I didn't think of that, but good to know.
 

Interesting perspective, but we were commanded to build the temple so it would seem that it still hasn't been built?  That's an interesting perspective though.   I have heard someone say that "there is more than one Jerusalem", another interesting perpective.  

 

I am somewhat at an disadvantage because I am not fluent in Hebrew and must rely on scholars.  I was having a discussion with a Rabbi about Jerusalem.  I told him of my theory that Jerusalem was named from the Jebusites that attempted to rebuild Salem following its translation.  He was quite adamant that the Jebusites had nothing at all to do with the naming of Jerusalem.  He then went on to explain to me that Jerusalem could be a figure of speech that in essence means "Salem on two hills".   In conversations with a different Rabbi about the previous - he was not keen on the idea of Salem on two hills though he did recognize that it could be possible to interpret it in that manner.

I am of the mind that there is a connection between Jerusalem and Salem.  I would put it as speculation because I am not in a position to dictate doctrine but I speculate that the place where Abraham was to sacrifice Issac is connected to Jerusalem and is the same place where Jesus was sacrificed on the cross.  I also speculate that the covenant whereby Enoch established his city is the same covenant whereby Melchizedek established Salem and that translation is a priesthood covenant and endowment ordnance.    I speculate that certain places are ordained as sacred from before the "foundations of the earth were laid".  That the City of Enoch and Salem are places that are sacred during the dispensations of our mortal existence such that not only do prophesies references important "things" in time but also in place.  Lastly that many of the "things" that will occur in the Last-days that will be liken unto signs, will be brought about - not so much by the efforts of men trying to fulfill prophesy but as a "Marvelous work and a wonder" brought about as a miracle by G-d.  But then I also believe that the faith to move mountains often begins with a shovel and a wheelbarrow. 

 

The Traveler

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On 8/19/2020 at 10:29 PM, Scott said:

I have always thought that it will happen before the Second Coming.

A quick search on the Church Website reveals the following:

What are the most important events that must take place before Christ returns?

The preaching of the gospel in all the world. It is the destiny of the gospel restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith to be preached among every nation, kindred, tongue, and people before Christ returns. Those of every nation, family, and language must have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ as he is testified of in the Book of Mormon (3 Ne. 21:11). Included are the peoples of Russia, China, India, and the Moslem nations. All are to be taught the restored gospel in their own language and by their own peoples (D&C 90:11Alma 29:8). In all these nations will be found congregations of Latter-day Saints “armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory” (1 Ne. 14:12, 14). It would appear that great changes must take place among the governments of men before such prophecies can be fulfilled.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1986/06/questions-and-answers/questions-and-answers?lang=eng

1. The preaching of the gospel in all the world. It is the destiny of the gospel restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith to be preached among every nation, kindred, tongue, and people before Christ returns.  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1985/10/q-and-a-questions-and-answers/what-are-the-most-important-events-that-must-take-place-before-christ-returns?lang=eng
 

This General Conference report from Joseph Fielding Smith says that we will have congregations in all nations before the Second Coming, not just one person seeing it on the internet:

The gospel is for all men, and the Church shall be established everywhere, in all nations, even to the ends of the earth, before the second coming of the Son of Man. He has set his hand the second time to gather Israel into the Church, and this time he will raise up congregations of his saints in all nations.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-joseph-fielding-smith/chapter-26-preparing-for-the-coming-of-our-lord?lang=eng

Mark E Peterson as an apostle:

The scripture says that we are to preach the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, and then shall the end come. Then will the Savior come.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/mark-e-petersen/great-prologue/

Ezra Taft Benson:

This commission to take the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people is one of the signs by which believers will recognize the nearness of the Savior’s return to earth.  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1984/04/our-commission-to-take-the-gospel-to-all-the-world?lang=eng

Then again, angels might help out (Revelation 4) and prophets and others can speak with the gift a tongues and it might happen sooner than it seems.

I still think the second coming won't happen for a while, but as I said I could be wrong.   

The temples in Jerusalem and Jackson County need to be built too.   

That is a much better support.

President Nelson is clearly warning and forewarning in his latest talks.  Given that the Lord had is all figured out on how to fulfill every prophecy and tells us he will tell his prophet we should be listening to that.

If it turns out that it is not the 2nd Coming that President Nelson warning us for, we are still better off preparing as if it was.  Because such preparation will see us through what ever it is President Nelson is trying to get us ready for.  Wereas if we think is it impossible for the Lord to speed up his work, therefore do not heed the warning...  Well second coming or not whomever has that mindset is going to be very much screwed when whatever it is we are being warned about comes. 

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4 hours ago, estradling75 said:

President Nelson is clearly warning and forewarning in his latest talks.  Given that the Lord had is all figured out on how to fulfill every prophecy and tells us he will tell his prophet we should be listening to that.

If it turns out that it is not the 2nd Coming that President Nelson warning us for, we are still better off preparing as if it was.  Because such preparation will see us through what ever it is President Nelson is trying to get us ready for.  Wereas if we think is it impossible for the Lord to speed up his work, therefore do not heed the warning...  Well second coming or not whomever has that mindset is going to be very much screwed when whatever it is we are being warned about comes. 

Yes, I agree.  Even if the second coming doesn't happen for a long time, everyone dies sometime so we will meet God regardless.  We have to be prepared for it regardless of when the second coming is.

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11 hours ago, Scott said:

Yes, I agree.  Even if the second coming doesn't happen for a long time, everyone dies sometime so we will meet God regardless.  We have to be prepared for it regardless of when the second coming is.

Its more then just when we die.  President Nelson is warning us right now to get ready for something.  We ignore that at our own peril.

It would be like knowing that Noah was God's prophet and his watchman.  Then when he warns us to board the ark, we say nope the Second Coming is a long way off so we do not need to.  Well we would be right about the Second Coming but that would not help us at all.  Wereas those that mistakenly think Noah is talking about the Second Coming and so they get on board well yes they were mistaken but they are saved anyways.

 

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2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

 President Nelson is warning us right now to get ready for something.  We ignore that at our own peril.

All the LDS prophets have warned us to prepare for the second coming.  It is a commandment to prepare for it.

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On 8/22/2020 at 10:14 AM, Scott said:

All the LDS prophets have warned us to prepare for the second coming.  It is a commandment to prepare for it.

I would like to add that we can prepare regardless of our economic status, political standing, church calling or any other condition in our life.  The first thing we are all told to do is to repent - which I understand is to change our outlook of ourselves, others, G-d and our relationship with G-d and others.  I find it a little strange that after working so hard to repent and in wondering what to do next - the answer is to repent.  I am beginning to think that repentance is a method or way and not an accomplishment.

 

The Traveler

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