Seer stones?


Guest Scott
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So why do you think that seer stones are no longer used in translation?   Apparently we no longer have access to the urim and thummim, but we do have the seer stones.   If they were used in Joseph Smith's time, why not now?  I assume there is a reason why we kept them.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/seer-stones?lang=eng

I was thinking of this because the Book of Mormon has been translated into 110 languages and there are still another 7000+ to go. 

Obviously, any answer is going to be only speculation, but I thought it was an interesting question.  

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17 minutes ago, Scott said:

So why do you think that seer stones are no longer used in translation?   Apparently we no longer have access to the urim and thummim, but we do have the seer stones.   If they were used in Joseph Smith's time, why not now?  I assume there is a reason why we kept them.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/seer-stones?lang=eng

I was thinking of this because the Book of Mormon has been translated into 110 languages and there are still another 7000+ to go. 

Obviously, any answer is going to be only speculation, but I thought it was an interesting question.  

From what I understand, things like the seer stone, Urim and Thummim, handkerchief used by Paul to heal a man, and the mud in the blind man’s eyes were nothing but tools to Supplement the faith needed to accomplish the miracle.

There have been points in history where no tools were needed to translate or heal, the faith needed the tasks were present in the individual

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The Lord rarely does for us what we can do for ourselves. In Joseph's case he was translating an unknown language. It could only be done by revelation and as Fether pointed out the seer stone acted as a crutch to help that process along. Nowadays we have much more knowledge, technology and resources at our service (all of which has been provided by God) and he expects us to use it. Of course I would imagine there is still a great deal of revelation involved in the process.

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13 hours ago, Scott said:

So why do you think that seer stones are no longer used in translation?   Apparently we no longer have access to the urim and thummim, but we do have the seer stones.   If they were used in Joseph Smith's time, why not now?  I assume there is a reason why we kept them.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/seer-stones?lang=eng

I was thinking of this because the Book of Mormon has been translated into 110 languages and there are still another 7000+ to go. 

Obviously, any answer is going to be only speculation, but I thought it was an interesting question.  

Several reasons, some of which are mystifying regarding the Church Bureaucracy today.  Because they have accepted and spread some of the things the enemies of the church have said, and adopted it in Church essays, much of which used to be plain and openly understood, today seems to be misunderstood or unknown to many members of the church.  I do not know why they are doing things such as this today.

Previously, in Church History, Joseph Smith had told others he had used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon.  He was rather clear on this.  His brother Hyrum also stated this (though Joseph was the one there, not Hyrum) and this was passed onto his children.  One of these was Joseph F. Smith and he told his grandson (clarification, Hyrum's Grandson) Joseph Fielding Smith.  They held to the argument that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using the Urim and Thummim.

A counter argument came from opponents of the church.  The most stringent of these from the Whitmers (ironically) in opposition to Brigham Young's Branch that followed him.  They, at the time, were supporting other dialogues...one branch which were the Strangites who believed their leader used a seer stone like object to translate plates.  Claiming Joseph Smith used a Seer Stone rather than the Urim and Thummim to translate was their way to say that Strange also was called to be a prophet, seer, and revelator.

Thus, you had a camp that was diametrically opposed to the Brighamite branch of the Church and the history it presented.  WHY, after all these centuries we have adopted the stories told by our enemies...I do not know. 

The Seer Stone was KNOWN by the prophets in the early Church.  Joseph Fielding Smith even pointed out that it was publically known, and Lorenzo Snow had shown it to the Saints previously.  The differences between the usage of the Urim and Thummim and the Seer Stone at the time were understood to be different.  The LOSS of this understanding in our modern church has  raised up a LOT of confusion regarding the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price.

The Urim and Thummim were utilized in the translation of ancient records.  We do not know how they worked specifically, but at times we are to understand the usage of the word Seer Stone and the Urim and Thummim were utilized almost synonymously.  However, the difference between their usage helps us understand how each record came to us.  It could be that they were used in the darkness of a hat or other object to help Joseph see what they said within...while he utilized the Seer Stone for other purposes. While the Urim and Thummim were utilized primarily for Translation, the Seer Stone was used for revelation, to revel things unseen, or other revelations.  Thus, Joseph could utilize the Seer Stone to see or understand unknown things, or to revel revelation.  In this way, using a Seer Stone would help him understand the deeper and original meanings of the Bible when he was trying to translate it, though it probably would be more seen as revelation in regards to the things he was reading in the translation he was already utilizing.

In this same manner, it could revel secret ideas within the scriptures or books which, on a basic reading were not known.  In this way, it is thought he also translated parts of the Pearl of Great Price.  What exactly it reveled in his translation of it, we can read, though it may not reflect what a basic reading of the outward portion of the Scrolls he had actually said literally. 

The difference is between one being more for translation, and the other being more for revelation.  Both are considered translations today when he applied it to scriptures, but they way they achieved this were done in very different forms and manners.

Thus, a Seer Stone isn't really used for translation in the way WE UNDERSTAND a translation to be done.  Joseph was reading mostly in an English Bible when he utilized the Seer Stone for the Joseph Smith translation.  It wasn't translating words he already could read, but revealing things unseen to him regarding what was originally meant or intended.  In this way, it was more revelation.

It may be we still use the Seer Stone today for revelation.  Whether the Prophet or an apostle is doing so is not really made known to the rest of us, though we know in times past that it had been carried by various prophets during the early years of the church.

Edited by JohnsonJones
clarifying information
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On 8/17/2020 at 4:20 PM, Scott said:

So why do you think that seer stones are no longer used in translation?   Apparently we no longer have access to the urim and thummim, but we do have the seer stones.   If they were used in Joseph Smith's time, why not now?  I assume there is a reason why we kept them.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/seer-stones?lang=eng

I was thinking of this because the Book of Mormon has been translated into 110 languages and there are still another 7000+ to go. 

Obviously, any answer is going to be only speculation, but I thought it was an interesting question.  

I think it is developmental. As time went on, both tools and faith advance, both individually as members and prophets, seers and revelators, and the Church collectively as we work together and stand upon the shoulders of those that have gone before us.

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How can I express my opinion in this matter?  I will try.  There exist things that I would call sacred relics; a sear stone being among them.  There exist two parts to all such things.  There is a physical part and a spiritual part.  It is my opinion that if we try to compartmentalize the parts then the purpose and meaning is lost and sacred relics loose their "power" to influence and guide us.  An example being the Liahona.   

If we do a word search for stone in scripture - we will discover that there are lots of references.  Among these many references we will discover that there is a common symbolism that runs through many of the stone references in scripture.  This common symbolic reference points to Christ and his power, might and grace to fulfill his promises.   

So it is my opinion that as long as we see and understand sacred relics to be a means to bring us to Christ to follow his counsels then and only then do we and can we understand and utilize sacred relics.  Weather it be by our own efforts and gifts or by the efforts and gifts of others.

 

The Traveler 

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