nothing and everything

[askandanswer]

Does an endowed, fully worthy, penniless, paralysed, deaf and blind person in hospital, totally dependent on the needs of others for the continuation of their life, have a lesser, equal or greater chance at salvation than the endowed, fully worthy rich and healthy person who has "everything?"

Edited August 22, 2020 by askandanswer

[mikbone]

Matthew 7:1-2 

[Just_A_Guy]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Does an endowed, fully worthy, penniless, paralysed, deaf and blind person in hospital, totally dependent on the needs of others for the continuation of their life, have a lesser, equal or greater chance at salvation than the endowed, fully worthy rich and healthy person who has "everything?"

The trouble I have with answering the question is, it assumes “salvation” is merely the act of achieving a “finish line” that leaves all who cross it in identical situations more-or-less on the same timeline.  Thus, the correct answer (“yes”) sounds horrendously unfair.

”Salvation” is maybe better perceived as a process of “becoming”, and that’s going to be a very individualized process.  What works to fully refine one person, may not work for another; and thus it probably isn’t particularly useful to get hung up on the idea of “fairness” or “equality” where the experiences of mortality are concerned.

 

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The trouble I have with answering the question is, it assumes “salvation” is merely the act of achieving a “finish line” that leaves all who cross it in identical situations more-or-less on the same timeline.  Thus, the correct answer (“yes”) sounds horrendously unfair.

”Salvation” is maybe better perceived as a process of “becoming”, and that’s going to be a very individualized process.  What works to fully refine one person, may not work for another; and thus it probably isn’t particularly useful to get hung up on the idea of “fairness” or “equality” where the experiences of mortality are concerned.

 

Thanks @Just_A_Guy I mostly agree with what you've said here. The point I'm thinking about here is the idea that if all people, regardless of their circumstances in life have an equal opportunity for salvation, then the circumstances of one's life become minutely relevant, at best, so there's no point in getting too concerned about them. In fact, if it becomes the case that working on changing one's circumstances in life lessens one's focus on salvation, or becoming, then placing an unbalanced emphasis on achieving such a change could be detrimental - and yet that is what so many of us seem to attach such a high priority to. To put it into a practical context, perhaps the person in solitary confinement has just as much opportunity for salvation as the person running for political office, as does the person running a major corporation, as does the begger in the street. And yet, typically, there focus would be on changing the circumstances of their life by getting out of solitary, and regaining their freedom, or winning the election, or increasing the annual dividend, or finding the next meal. None of those things, in an eternal perspective, matter very much but that seems to be where most of our efforts go.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Does an endowed, fully worthy, penniless, paralysed, deaf and blind person in hospital, totally dependent on the needs of others for the continuation of their life, have a lesser, equal or greater chance at salvation than the endowed, fully worthy rich and healthy person who has "everything?"

I feel that salvation is NEVER, EVER about chance in the sense of (mathematical or other kind of) probability. We are all on the same standing and alike unto God and agents unto ourselves.

The Book of Mormon seems to use the term "chance" to mean "opportunity" (Alma 12:21 uses the interesting term "possible chance").

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by CV75

[Guest Scott]

Equal.  Salvation is based on one's heart.

[laronius]

11 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Does an endowed, fully worthy, penniless, paralysed, deaf and blind person in hospital, totally dependent on the needs of others for the continuation of their life, have a lesser, equal or greater chance at salvation than the endowed, fully worthy rich and healthy person who has "everything?"

Because you said both are fully worthy then that is all we need to know. But what qualified each as fully worthy from a practical standpoint is going to vary. We will be judged according to our ability to do. A wealthy person obviously has the ability to do more with his wealth than a poor person. A healthy person has the ability to do more with his body than a sick or injured person. And so it goes with knowledge, freedoms, upbringing, historical setting, etc. We will each be judged accordingly. 

[laronius]

6 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Thanks @Just_A_Guy I mostly agree with what you've said here. The point I'm thinking about here is the idea that if all people, regardless of their circumstances in life have an equal opportunity for salvation, then the circumstances of one's life become minutely relevant, at best, so there's no point in getting too concerned about them. In fact, if it becomes the case that working on changing one's circumstances in life lessens one's focus on salvation, or becoming, then placing an unbalanced emphasis on achieving such a change could be detrimental - and yet that is what so many of us seem to attach such a high priority to. To put it into a practical context, perhaps the person in solitary confinement has just as much opportunity for salvation as the person running for political office, as does the person running a major corporation, as does the begger in the street. And yet, typically, there focus would be on changing the circumstances of their life by getting out of solitary, and regaining their freedom, or winning the election, or increasing the annual dividend, or finding the next meal. None of those things, in an eternal perspective, matter very much but that seems to be where most of our efforts go.

Maybe I'll throw another factor into the salvation equation as it pertains to becoming consecrated. As with many gospel principles there is, I believe, some overlapping of the laws of consecration and sacrifice. One defining characteristic of consecration though is that we actively seek to better ourselves so that we have more to offer. For example if I increase my ability to make money I will have more money to consecrate. If I increase my level of skill or knowledge I will be able to serve or teach better. This is why we are taught to get all the education we can and be the best that we can be in our temporal pursuits. This all of course with the recognition that we don't sacrifice things of greater importance in the process. But these things of a temporal nature do matter. 

[Connie]

We should be very careful about saying the circumstances we live in don’t matter in an eternal perspective. Eternal perspective is God’s perspective. And His purpose was to send us here to “prove us” (see Abraham 3:25). He does this through “trying our patience and faith” (see Mosiah 23:21). And that is accomplished through circumstance. Our individualized process of salvation will often include circumstantial commandments.

For example, He told Lehi to leave his home in Jerusalem and take his family to a far away land. Should Lehi have just stayed because changing his circumstance “didn’t really matter” in an eternal perspective? Obviously it mattered in God’s perspective. He is the one who told him to do it.

We are seeking to build God’s kingdom on earth. How do we build a Celestial society without striving to change Telestial circumstance? Exaltation does not happen in isolation. Service is a huge part of it. Take Joseph in Egypt. Should he have remained in prison because circumstances “don’t matter?” No. He became the best prisoner he could be, and he used his spiritual gifts and talents to get himself out and become a blessing to not only his own family but all of Egypt.

“This life is the time to prepare to meet God” (Alma 34:32). We are to “act” and not just “be acted upon” (see 2 Nephi 2:16).

[estradling75]

I think the parable of the Talents applies here.  Some people start off with more then others.  Others ended up with more then others.  But that did not seem to really matter to the Lord.  Those that diligently tried to do the will of their Lord pleased him no matter the results.  Those that did not try, did not please the Lord.

In this world some of us might start off in what appears to be a more advantageous position, or a more disadvantageous position.  The only way it matters is in how it affect our willingness to try to do the will of the Lord.  That means there is no "collective answer" to the question.  But rather a bunch of highly individualized answers

 

[CV75]

14 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Does an endowed, fully worthy, penniless, paralysed, deaf and blind person in hospital, totally dependent on the needs of others for the continuation of their life, have a lesser, equal or greater chance at salvation than the endowed, fully worthy rich and healthy person who has "everything?"

Another way to look at this is that Christ has already done all necessary to exalt all the children of Adam, and all we need to do is choose and act once an opportunity is afforded us. Alma 13 is directly about priesthood calling in this life, but can be extrapolated to anyone who, "left to choose good or evil..." chose good and does "not harden their hearts" which can occur any time, any place and under any condition covered by Christ's Atonement.

[askandanswer]

18 hours ago, Scott said:

Equal.  Salvation is based on one's heart.

I agree. And I would argue that one can work effectively on one's heart regardless of their temporal circumstances. Perhaps one could go so far as to say its all in the mind, that is, it's what in one's mind that has the greatest impact on our salvation, rather than our circumstances.  

[askandanswer]

18 hours ago, laronius said:

We will be judged according to our ability to do

Perhaps this is not quite what you meant to say? If this were true, then the blind, deaf, paralysed man in hospital would be judged very harshly because he has no ability to do anything. Perhaps it might be more correct, although perhaps still not yet fully correct, to say that we will be judged at least partially on what we did do, compared to what we could have done? 

[laronius]

6 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Perhaps this is not quite what you meant to say? If this were true, then the blind, deaf, paralysed man in hospital would be judged very harshly because he has no ability to do anything. Perhaps it might be more correct, although perhaps still not yet fully correct, to say that we will be judged at least partially on what we did do, compared to what we could have done? 

I thought I phrased it correctly but I'm no English expert. So yes my intention was to say that each person's unique circumstances will be a factor in how we are judged.

[NeuroTypical]

It would be an unrighteous judgment to attempt to answer that question.  God is judge.  We simply don't have the tools to judge righteously about the state of someone's salvation.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging

[Traveler]

The grand paradox of eternal salvation is that the more we work and focus on our individual achievements and possibilities; the farther we will be from achieving divine glory.  The more we are willing to sacrifice our individual achievements and possibilities to focus on serving and assisting others; the closer we become to achieving divine glory.

 

The Traveler

[JohnsonJones]

On 8/21/2020 at 7:46 PM, askandanswer said:

Does an endowed, fully worthy, penniless, paralysed, deaf and blind person in hospital, totally dependent on the needs of others for the continuation of their life, have a lesser, equal or greater chance at salvation than the endowed, fully worthy rich and healthy person who has "everything?"

A thread has popped up recently which discusses the second coming and when it may be.  For most who have been born into the world, they do not meet the Lord at the second coming to the world, but meet the Lord upon their death.  We must always be ready for when we will meet the Lord as it may be closer than we assume or think.  In that light, when the Lord comes, is something that applies to rich, poor, healthy or disabled. 

We are ALL held accountable for what we know or what has been given to us prior to this.  It is upon what we are able.

Luke 12

Quote

³⁹ And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

⁴⁰ Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

⁴¹ Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

⁴² And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

⁴³ Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

⁴⁴ Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

⁴⁵ But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

⁴⁶ The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

⁴⁷ And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

⁴⁸ But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

We see similar principles regarding the salvation of children as well as those who were unable to comprehend or understand the principles and teachings of the gospel.  We believe (or this is what I have been taught) that they will be received by the Lord into his kingdom.  There are many things that others need to do that they will not need to if they die in the state they are.

I also believe that many of the things and situations that happen to us in this life were determined by us and the Lord in the pre-existence.  He knows us and our situations, as well as what we would have chosen if the situation was different. 

In the exact question posed, it can be hard to know what the Lord will say.  He is the judge of us all, and all of us come to him in the afterlife with nothing except our souls and sins.  We can find our sins washed away by his atonement, but he is the one who knows our hearts, minds, and souls.

Thus, in finding him, we must turn to him completely and see only him and his glory and goals in this life...regardless of our circumstances and abilities.  In this way, we could say we are all beggars before him as we all must rely on him as he is the ONLY way we can return to live with him in Heaven.

Matthew 19

Quote

²³ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

²⁴ And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

²⁵ When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

²⁶ But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

²⁷ Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

²⁸ And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

²⁹ And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

³⁰ But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

 

[mordorbund]

So long as we're dealing with soteriological hypotheticals: Did Hitler increase his chances for salvation by being the guy that killed Hitler?

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

So long as we're dealing with soteriological hypotheticals: Did Hitler increase his chances for salvation by being the guy that killed Hitler?

This question is answered by - if he repents - his chances will be the same as Alma the younger and the sons of Mosiah.

 

The Traveler