JohnsonJones Gospel Topics thread


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5 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

In many ways, I think that we, as Saints, are falling into the same pride and arrogance as shown in the Book of Helaman.  It makes me concerned for the future if we do not soon repent as a people, as members of the church

@JohnsonJones

Jj, you know how much I respect you. But don’t you think that’s a little harsh? LDS are incredibly hard on themselves and on one another. In fact, 95% of LDS are wonderful people who feel huge guilt for the littlest things. I’m not sure there’s another group out there that is so misunderstood 

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On 11/15/2021 at 9:24 AM, LDSGator said:

@JohnsonJones

Jj, you know how much I respect you. But don’t you think that’s a little harsh? LDS are incredibly hard on themselves and on one another. In fact, 95% of LDS are wonderful people who feel huge guilt for the littlest things. I’m not sure there’s another group out there that is so misunderstood 

Your discussion with @JohnsonJoneshas me thinking.  Here in Utah we live close enough to all the meeting houses in our stake that we can easily walk to church.  A couple of weeks ago the wife and I walked to church to enjoy the weather.  As we arrived, my wife put on her mask and reminded me to do so also.  But I had left mine home.  I do not feel the need to wear a mask but do so mostly for the comfort of others.  I am tested immune to COVID.  Rather than return home for a mask and be, perhaps, late -- I went mask-less along with a few others that particular Sabbath.

When I was in high school a few buddies and myself went on a scuba expedition in Mexico.  One of the buddies had relatives in Arizona where we stopped on our way.  I left my Sunday clothes there.  Being a Utah member I was quite concerned about going to church without proper attire (t-shirt, shorts and flip-flops) but had no other option.  I was sure that I would stand out and look improper.   The local branch in Guaymas and a just a few member - but most all of them were dressed with less so called Sunday attire than myself.  Many, especially the youth did not even have shoes.  I fit in much better than my buddies.

So I wonder when there is talk about "guide lines" - especially when guide lines causes guilt - how do we consider guide lines - first for ourselves and then for how we use guide lines in our relationships.  I can understand that there ought to be guilt when we deliberately break our covenants and commandments.  I am not so sure we ought to ascribe guilt if guidelines are not maticulously followed - especially if we are not fully knowledgeable why?  Perhaps @JohnsonJonescan explain this in more detail.   Hopefully we can have a open discussion - if not the whole forum at least the 3 of us.

 

The Traveler

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3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Your discussion with @JohnsonJoneshas me thinking.  Here in Utah we live close enough to all the meeting houses in our stake that we can easily walk to church.  A couple of weeks ago the wife and I walked to church to enjoy the weather.  As we arrived, my wife put on her mask and reminded me to do so also.  But I had left mine home.  I do not feel the need to wear a mask but do so mostly for the comfort of others.  I am tested immune to COVID.  Rather than return home for a mask and be, perhaps, late -- I went mask-less along with a few others that particular Sabbath.

When I was in high school a few buddies and myself went on a scuba expedition in Mexico.  One of the buddies had relatives in Arizona where we stopped on our way.  I left my Sunday clothes there.  Being a Utah member I was quite concerned about going to church without proper attire (t-shirt, shorts and flip-flops) but had no other option.  I was sure that I would stand out and look improper.   The local branch in Guaymas and a just a few member - but most all of them were dressed with less so called Sunday attire than myself.  Many, especially the youth did not even have shoes.  I fit in much better than my buddies.

So I wonder when there is talk about "guide lines" - especially when guide lines causes guilt - how do we consider guide lines - first for ourselves and then for how we use guide lines in our relationships.  I can understand that there ought to be guilt when we deliberately break our covenants and commandments.  I am not so sure we ought to ascribe guilt if guidelines are not maticulously followed - especially if we are not fully knowledgeable why?  Perhaps @JohnsonJonescan explain this in more detail.   Hopefully we can have a open discussion - if not the whole forum at least the 3 of us.

 

The Traveler

All fair points. Regarding your experience in Mexico, it’s heartbreaking that those kids couldn’t afford shoes, but I am assuring you that they felt much, much much better seeing you there in casual attire. 
 

And I wear a mask for the same reason. 

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16 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

All fair points. Regarding your experience in Mexico, it’s heartbreaking that those kids couldn’t afford shoes, but I am assuring you that they felt much, much much better seeing you there in casual attire. 
 

And I wear a mask for the same reason. 

Just a comment about my Mexico experience - most of the adults were without shoes.  But you know what?  That little branch was one of the happiest places I have ever attended church.  This was back before the block so the members brought food and between meetings (having traveled too far to go home) they had a pot luck dinner and invited us rich Utah member guys.  It was this experience and many others that has given me a great love for the members of this church - especially the poor that are much more happy and open to others than the rich!!!

 

The Traveler

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4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

especially the poor that are much more happy and open to others than the rich!!!

 

The Traveler

It’s fascinating, that’s for sure. “More money more problems” is a real thing, but if you complain about your life from a mortgage free house and a paid off car, you need to be very careful because a ton of people would love to switch with you. 

Edited by LDSGator
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3 hours ago, Traveler said:

So I wonder when there is talk about "guide lines" - especially when guide lines causes guilt - how do we consider guide lines - first for ourselves and then for how we use guide lines in our relationships.  I can understand that there ought to be guilt when we deliberately break our covenants and commandments.  I am not so sure we ought to ascribe guilt if guidelines are not maticulously followed - especially if we are not fully knowledgeable why?  Perhaps @JohnsonJonescan explain this in more detail.   Hopefully we can have a open discussion - if not the whole forum at least the 3 of us.

 

The Traveler

I hesitate to point out others, especially to specify individuals, but in general there has been a great inclination among some to toss out the words of our Prophet and First Presidency, even when the Prophet and First Presidency are direct in their statements. 

Last year we had an a apostle of the Lord in his position as an apostle tell us to do things, and to do these things if not for anything more than to love our neighbors and our fellow man.  In action, this was also reinforced by the Prophets and their actions with General Conference, each other, and interactions with the church.

Early this year the Prophet came out and gently told us that we should do certain things in regards to the Pandemic we find ourselves currently in.  He showed us by example in personally doing these things.

Later this year, our Prophet and the First Presidency came out much more strongly on things we should do.

Rather than agree with our Prophet and apostles, in every instance, we have had many, including many members, come out against them vocally online in posts and other locations.  They have said all manner of things to dissuade people from following the prophet or doing as the prophet has asked them to. 

It appears that this is MORE than just idle talk and idle speech.  In what I have seen this has been reinforced by their actions and what are choosing to do. Even as the Delta variant has ravaged across many of the areas populated by Members, they ignore what is happening and the words of the Prophet, blatantly refusing to do the things he has asked in their totality.

I admit, wearing a mask is hard for me at times.  It is EVEN HARDER when the members themselves disdain with scorn those who wear a mask or try to do the things asked of by the Prophet in some of the areas of the Church. 

When almost ALL members of a ward or an area are not doing as the Prophet has asked, this is not just one or two forgetting a mask or forgetting something one Sunday, and when it is done regularly, this is no longer chance, it is planned and blatant rebellion against what has been asked of them. 

We have had other things to solidify what has been asked of us in the Handbook and other locations.  This is a repeated thing to us.  I am reminded in my readings of where the prophets tell the people repeatedly to do something (and in fact, in my reading today something else came up in my thoughts that I'll place down in this thread of my gospel readings) in the Book of Mormon and repeatedly the people mock them and cast them out.

I do not believe the prophet is infallible, and I believe he is a man, but I also believe he is a prophet of God and given to guide us in these modern days in telling us what the Lord would have us do and what the best direction for us to take as members.  I do not feel we should ignore the repeated warnings and statements that have been given to us.

However, I suppose it is in line with the things that happen in the Book of Mormon and how the people rise and fall in the Church.  This does not mean that all are unfaithful or rebellious.  If that were so I think we would be ripe to destruction and already be in worse straights.  I think that there are plenty of righteous people in the church following the prophet, and it is probably due to the righteousness of these members that we are not yet destroyed overall as members.

But as I read the Book of Mormon and see the parallels of our modern day, I wonder how much worse it will get and how far off the second coming is or will be.  At that time in Helaman they still were a good 30-50 years off from when the Savior would be born (and interestingly enough, that was my reading today).  I think the righteousness of the members following the prophet are what may be keeping this nation from destruction, and our church from great damage, but I also can see signs of a great many of our youth trending towards ways against the Church and even Christianity (as Elder Oaks talk in general conference was about to some degree). 

It worries and saddens me to see it occurring in real time.  I think it has been there for a while, but the blatant rebellion in the church I think has been made more visible by what is occurring due to the pandemic and the responses to the Prophet and apostles statements regarding it.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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As the coming of Christ approaches in the Book of Mormon things continually seem to get darker and darker.  It is the darkest right before dawn some say.  If we see the Book of Mormon not just as a history of the Nephites and Lamanites, but also as a type and shadow of our day to be related to how things may go before the second coming, it can depress our hearts to a degree even as we look forward with hope to how it ends.  In this, I was reading the Book of 3rd nephi today in Chapter 6 and was struck by some verses and how they may apply to me.

Quote

20 And there began to be men inspired from heaven and sent forth, standing among the people in all the land, preaching and testifying boldly of the sins and iniquities of the people, and testifying unto them concerning the redemption which the Lord would make for his people, or in other words, the resurrection of Christ; and they did testify boldly of his death and sufferings.

21 Now there were many of the people who were exceedingly angry because of those who testified of these things; and those who were angry were chiefly the chief judges, and they who had been high priests and lawyers; yea, all those who were lawyers were angry with those who testified of these things.

and later

Quote

27 Now it came to pass that those judges had many friends and kindreds; and the remainder, yea, even almost all the lawyers and the high priests, did gather themselves together, and unite with the kindreds of those judges who were to be tried according to the law.

28 And they did enter into a covenant one with another, yea, even into that covenant which was given by them of old, which covenant was given and administered by the devil, to combine against all righteousness.

Two things struck me in this. 

First, that there are those who argue that High Priest was an office that was thought of later in the church, but we see right here in the Book of Mormon that the Office of High Priest has been around since the beginning of our Church, even if not specifically called (and I've had this thought before, but it is a good thing to bring up and remember).

Secondly, that High Priests are members of the Church and more than that, the LEADERS of the Church.  That is in the Book of Mormon and that is today as well.  It indicates that as the Second coming draws nearer that even many of the High Leaders of the Church will be full of iniquity and wickedness.  That when called on to be righteous, rather than do so, these men will do evil instead.

It could be that this time is already upon us (if so, the second coming may be sooner than we anticipate or think, but I do not know as no man knows the time or day). 

It is a scary thought.

It is also one for self-reflection.  Am I included among the Saints of God and the Faithful of the Church, or am I falling in my responsibilities and acting in ways I should not act.  I would hope that I may remain humble and a loyal servant of the Lord, but once again the above verses speak of dire times before the second coming (if one reads it as an allegory as well) within the Church just as much as without.

Luckily, this dark reading is almost over and (at least for a day or two) I'll have much happier reading within the next few chapters.

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