Resurrection Question

[laronius]

Over the years I have noticed how often the scriptures speak of the resurrection leading us back into God's presence to be judged. Initially I just thought that was the order of events: resurrection then judgment. But as I paid more attention to these scriptures it sure makes it sound like resurrection is actually making it happen or at least making it possible. The reading this week in Helaman 14:15-17 makes it very clear that this is the case. Does anyone have a good explanation as to why resurrection specifically makes this possible?

[Anddenex]

I may be misunderstanding scripture; however, as to my current understanding I don't believe it is the resurrection that "leads" us back into God's presence. I would liken resurrection to finishing a test, a chain of events. With some tests, we enter the testing center (hell 😉 ). Until we have finished that test we are no longer in the presence of our teacher. The moment we have finished our test we are then able to visit (classroom) with our teacher to discuss the results. Although we can't leave the testing center until we are done with the test, the testing center doesn't prohibit a teacher from entering the center. The teacher is able to come and go as they please, if they choose to do so.

Personal desires and righteousness are what lead us back into the presence of God > even in this life. A translated being (not resurrected) is able to enter the presence of the Lord. A transfigured being is able to enter into the presence of the Lord.

For the wicked (or less valiant), it appears resurrection is the path that leads to the father because the time has now come and the test is over (so to speak).

I could be also confusing what you are asking and hoping to receive.

[estradling75]

Two thoughts...  The resurrection is a form of Judgement therefore it makes sense that it would take place when other judgement happen.

In 1 Corinthians 15: 39-42 we read

Quote

 

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 Also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial, and bodies telestial; but the glory of the celestial, one; and the terrestrial, another; and the telestial, another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

 

We commonly use this to show the Three Degrees of Glory, but Paul is clearly talking about Bodies, more importantly Resurrected Bodies.  Aka the resurrection is "celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial, and bodies telestial;"  Thus Resurrection is a Judgement.  This lends weight to the idea the the Kingdom's of Glory are not places but state of being.  Thus someone with a Celestial Body is in the Celestial Kingdom no matter were there might be physically.  This means if you resurrect with a Celestial Body you already have a huge idea how the rest of the judgment is going to go.

Second thought... During judgement we are told we will have a bright recollection of all our guilt, and know that the judgments are just.  Having a perfect memory sounds like the function of a resurrected brain to me.

[mordorbund]

13 hours ago, laronius said:

Over the years I have noticed how often the scriptures speak of the resurrection leading us back into God's presence to be judged. Initially I just thought that was the order of events: resurrection then judgment. But as I paid more attention to these scriptures it sure makes it sound like resurrection is actually making it happen or at least making it possible. The reading this week in Helaman 14:15-17 makes it very clear that this is the case. Does anyone have a good explanation as to why resurrection specifically makes this possible?

Similar to @estradling75's Pauline analysis, Jacob reminds us that we are under the Adamic curse. Physical death will have to be overcome before a proper judgment can occur (on the merits of the individual and the grace of Christ).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/9.8,9?lang=eng&clang=eng#p8,9

Quote

For as [physical] death hath passed upon all men ... there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—... Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more. O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

 

[laronius]

22 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I may be misunderstanding scripture; however, as to my current understanding I don't believe it is the resurrection that "leads" us back into God's presence. I would liken resurrection to finishing a test, a chain of events. With some tests, we enter the testing center (hell 😉 ). Until we have finished that test we are no longer in the presence of our teacher. The moment we have finished our test we are then able to visit (classroom) with our teacher to discuss the results. Although we can't leave the testing center until we are done with the test, the testing center doesn't prohibit a teacher from entering the center. The teacher is able to come and go as they please, if they choose to do so.

Personal desires and righteousness are what lead us back into the presence of God > even in this life. A translated being (not resurrected) is able to enter the presence of the Lord. A transfigured being is able to enter into the presence of the Lord.

For the wicked (or less valiant), it appears resurrection is the path that leads to the father because the time has now come and the test is over (so to speak).

I could be also confusing what you are asking and hoping to receive.

Your thoughts are definitely in line with how I had always perceived it but more and more it seems (if I am reading it correctly) that resurrection is a gateway back into God's presence. Your point about the state of our bodies required to be in God's presence though does I think offer an important element in understanding it.

[laronius]

22 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Two thoughts...  The resurrection is a form of Judgement therefore it makes sense that it would take place when other judgement happen.

In 1 Corinthians 15: 39-42 we read

We commonly use this to show the Three Degrees of Glory, but Paul is clearly talking about Bodies, more importantly Resurrected Bodies.  Aka the resurrection is "celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial, and bodies telestial;"  Thus Resurrection is a Judgement.  This lends weight to the idea the the Kingdom's of Glory are not places but state of being.  Thus someone with a Celestial Body is in the Celestial Kingdom no matter were there might be physically.  This means if you resurrect with a Celestial Body you already have a huge idea how the rest of the judgment is going to go.

Second thought... During judgement we are told we will have a bright recollection of all our guilt, and know that the judgments are just.  Having a perfect memory sounds like the function of a resurrected brain to me.

This does make a lot of sense. It doesn't answer the question about resurrection's power to bring us back into God's presence (if there is such a thing) but as to its timing it definitely makes sense that it would take place as part of the whole judgement process. Resurrection seems to be the cut off point. If anything is going to happen if deciding our eternal fate it needs to happen prior to the resurrection.

[laronius]

In reviewing more scriptures about the resurrection I think I might be piecing this together a little more. So see if this makes sense: In Helaman 14:17 it states:   

17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.

So in many of the scriptures I've read where its talking about the resurrection and coming back into the presence of the Lord it also refers to redemption. Mormon 9:13 explains it in a little more detail:

12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.

13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.

14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them...

So when we talk about redemption, at least in this context, we are talking about overcoming the full effects of the fall, which were physical and spiritual death. Spiritual death in this context means separation from God. It appears that the resurrection actually overcomes both by reuniting our spirits with our bodies and then bringing us back into God's presence.  Perhaps this is why the resurrected Lord told Mary not to "touch" him not because he had not yet ascended to the Father because the full redemptive process was not yet complete. When we come into this world we have not yet done anything to merit this separation. So it makes sense that after our testing we are brought back into His presence, having been fully redeemed from that which we had not control over, and then judged to see if we get to remain in God's presence or if the second death comes upon us and we are separated again but this time because of our own unrepented of deeds. If this is true then I am going to have to look at the resurrection as being more than I had previously thought.

[Jersey Boy]

On 9/1/2020 at 10:56 AM, laronius said:

Over the years I have noticed how often the scriptures speak of the resurrection leading us back into God's presence to be judged. Initially I just thought that was the order of events: resurrection then judgment. But as I paid more attention to these scriptures it sure makes it sound like resurrection is actually making it happen or at least making it possible. The reading this week in Helaman 14:15-17 makes it very clear that this is the case. Does anyone have a good explanation as to why resurrection specifically makes this possible?

Samuel’s point is clear: The infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of Christ, the ultimate act of divine love, is so powerful and complete that all men are are unconditionally redeemed from physical death by his resurrection,  and all are unconditionally redeemed from spiritual death, and thereby brought back into the immediate presence of God, without any effort on their part.. The only problem is that after this “free ride” back into the immediate presence of God not all will feel comfortable and at home there, so they will retreat from the fulness of the intensity of divine light and back to a less intense realm of light where they will feel more comfortable and at home.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Jersey Boy

[SpiritDragon]

@laronius These are indeed some fascinating thoughts. Thanks for sharing.

Some musings to consider:

Moses 1:11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

D&C 67:11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

3 Nephi 28:15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.

 

Could it be something as simple as needing to be in an immortalized state to enter the presence of God for the judgment to take place? One could certainly speculate as to why it might have been that we could withstand the Father's presence in the premortal realm as spirit bodies, but could not following mortal life, but there would be very little to go on that's firmly rooted in doctrine I think at that point.

Edited September 4, 2020 by SpiritDragon

[laronius]

9 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

@laronius 

Could it be something as simple as needing to be in an immortalized state to enter the presence of God for the judgment to take place? One could certainly speculate as to why it might have been that we could withstand the Father's presence in the premortal realm as spirit bodies, but could not following mortal life, but there would be very little to go on that's firmly rooted in doctrine I think at that point.

It's very possible and until I find something that specifically spells it all out my thoughts on the matter are only that. But from the scriptures I've read it sure sounds like, at least to me, that the resurrection event actively brings us back into God's presence rather than simply making it possible. And maybe that's splitting hairs. I'm just looking for understanding on how I currently read the scriptures.

[SpiritDragon]

2 hours ago, laronius said:

It's very possible and until I find something that specifically spells it all out my thoughts on the matter are only that. But from the scriptures I've read it sure sounds like, at least to me, that the resurrection event actively brings us back into God's presence rather than simply making it possible. And maybe that's splitting hairs. I'm just looking for understanding on how I currently read the scriptures.

Splitting hairs or not, I think questions like this help lead to deeper understanding of principles. Too often, I think, we as a church culture are too prone to accepting  basic levels of understanding as all there is to know and discourage deeper study as reaching off into the fringes and not focusing on what is "essential/pertinent to salvation". While certainly too much time can be spent on studying pet topics, this to me, does not seem like one of those at all. How much more critical to the plan could it be than to try and understand the deeper implications and importance of resurrection. 

If I get any other thoughts on the matter, I'll run them past you.

[Jonah]

On 9/2/2020 at 10:43 AM, laronius said:

If this is true then I am going to have to look at the resurrection as being more than I had previously thought.

Alma 40 has some more information about what happens between death and resurrection.

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto
me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all
men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness,
which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all
care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor
portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil
did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall
be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will
of the devil.

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery
indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise,
until the time of their resurrection.
 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Jonah
grammar

[laronius]

4 hours ago, Jonah said:

 

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness,
which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all
care, and sorrow.
 

Not necessarily related to the thread but this verse kind of made me step back and look at things a little bit different. For the righteous, when they die, they enter into paradise. And while they are probably still concerned about us they live without all the chaos and tumult that surrounds us here in this life. It's almost like we exist in this tiny snow globe in space that is constantly getting shaken up whilst peace reigns throughout the rest of the universe. Oh how that must be nice! 🙄

Okay, back to reality.