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Carborendum

Who Was that Rich Man?

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Not exactly "current".  But nowhere else that it fits.

Here's a bunch of stuff that shows that Trump has been a pretty nice guy throughout his life. 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/so-you-think-you-know-donald-trump/

We all know he's not perfect.  Never claimed he was.  But he is certainly not the monster that the media portray him to be.  It certainly seems that he's a generous person who cares about the people in his life.

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27 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Not exactly "current".  But nowhere else that it fits.

Here's a bunch of stuff that shows that Trump has been a pretty nice guy throughout his life. 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/so-you-think-you-know-donald-trump/

We all know he's not perfect.  Never claimed he was.  But he is certainly not the monster that the media portray him to be.  It certainly seems that he's a generous person who cares about the people in his life.

Unless there is something that he disagrees with - then he is not so nice and generous.   Anyone can be nice with those that agree with them (even a Democrat does that!!!) - a nice person is nice when being nice is not expected.  I do not expect the media to be nice but I do expect the media to be accurate.  That is their one and only job - to be accurate - even if they have opinions in the media; it is somewhat acceptable only, if and when they are accurate.  I believe one element of accurate in the media is understanding all possible sides and being able to argue for what you disagree about at least as well as your opposition.  But attempting to silence one's opposition - is never nice - nor is it acceptable in a free society.  

 

The Traveler 

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16 hours ago, Traveler said:

Unless there is something that he disagrees with - then he is not so nice and generous.   Anyone can be nice with those that agree with them (even a Democrat does that!!!) - a nice person is nice when being nice is not expected.  I do not expect the media to be nice but I do expect the media to be accurate.  That is their one and only job - to be accurate - even if they have opinions in the media; it is somewhat acceptable only, if and when they are accurate.  I believe one element of accurate in the media is understanding all possible sides and being able to argue for what you disagree about at least as well as your opposition.  But attempting to silence one's opposition - is never nice - nor is it acceptable in a free society.  

 

The Traveler 

Unrelated but similar.  I used to read a LOT of Yahoo news articles, specifically because they had comments which allowed you to get a bigger picture of what people were thinking rather than the biased articles written by Yahoo.

Apparently Yahoo didn't like dissent.  They have stopped comments in their articles.

I no longer read Yahoo as much.

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On 9/16/2020 at 11:31 AM, Traveler said:

Unless there is something that he disagrees with - then he is not so nice and generous.   Anyone can be nice with those that agree with them (even a Democrat does that!!!) - a nice person is nice when being nice is not expected. 

Thank you.  That makes half my point.  Did you even comprehend the other half?

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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Thank you.  That makes half my point.  Did you even comprehend the other half?

I am not sure.  Generally I do not trust politicians and corporate elites - usually in that order.   The scriptures have a lot to say about the rich - Jesus was not very complementary of the rich even when they contributed alms. 

 

The Traveler

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7 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am not sure.  Generally I do not trust politicians and corporate elites - usually in that order.   The scriptures have a lot to say about the rich - Jesus was not very complementary of the rich even when they contributed alms. 

 

The Traveler

This is true.  He was actually rather savage in his comments towards those who were rich among his people, or those who were in power in the religious circles of his day. 

He was more neutral to those in power in the government itself in general (rich and powerful...such as the Romans), though he separated out the spiritual from the worldly in stark contrast.

He did help out those in power (ex. Roman Soldier) or had for followers who were viewed upon as wealthy (a certain tax collector) at times, but in general, his condemnation towards the Rich was rather pronounced. 

I think in general it is the REASON one is rich or has power and the attitude behind it that led such condemnations (though I could be very wrong on this as well) since we see some varied attitudes towards this in the Book of Mormon.  It is the pride that comes with them that leads to condemnation, not necessarily the riches or power.  If one uses the riches to further the Kingdom of God (in which case, they may not be so rich I suppose afterwards) or is not seeking power to have power, but to help further the Lord's Will and is humble to seek the Lord's will in everything (for example, King Mosiah, or Alma the Elder) than it seems to not be seen as a bad thing.

Of course, most of those in power or who have wealth today are not donating it to the Church or feeding the poor, they are hoarding it to ensure financial security (even beyond reasonable doubt that they could be secure in their finances) or seek power to have power and dominion rather than to seek the aims of the Lord.  That probably applies to those both in the Church to a great degree and those outside of the Church.

The Book of Mormon goes into greater detail about wealth and wealth disparity.  It seems during times when there was a great disparity between the rich and the poor, the people were in the middle of the pride cycle.  I see a great amount of disparity of wealth in the Church today among members. 

Something to think about though.  I have not verified this, but I heard recently that if you make more than 33K in USD a year, you are in the top 1% of the world in regards to income.  Seeing how much most make in the US and Europe on average...something to make one ponder...(which includes me...obviously...thinking on how wicked or righteous I may actually be if that number is accurate).

 

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9 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

This is true.  He was actually rather savage in his comments towards those who were rich among his people, or those who were in power in the religious circles of his day. 

He was more neutral to those in power in the government itself in general (rich and powerful...such as the Romans), though he separated out the spiritual from the worldly in stark contrast.

He did help out those in power (ex. Roman Soldier) or had for followers who were viewed upon as wealthy (a certain tax collector) at times, but in general, his condemnation towards the Rich was rather pronounced. 

I think in general it is the REASON one is rich or has power and the attitude behind it that led such condemnations (though I could be very wrong on this as well) since we see some varied attitudes towards this in the Book of Mormon.  It is the pride that comes with them that leads to condemnation, not necessarily the riches or power.  If one uses the riches to further the Kingdom of God (in which case, they may not be so rich I suppose afterwards) or is not seeking power to have power, but to help further the Lord's Will and is humble to seek the Lord's will in everything (for example, King Mosiah, or Alma the Elder) than it seems to not be seen as a bad thing.

Of course, most of those in power or who have wealth today are not donating it to the Church or feeding the poor, they are hoarding it to ensure financial security (even beyond reasonable doubt that they could be secure in their finances) or seek power to have power and dominion rather than to seek the aims of the Lord.  That probably applies to those both in the Church to a great degree and those outside of the Church.

The Book of Mormon goes into greater detail about wealth and wealth disparity.  It seems during times when there was a great disparity between the rich and the poor, the people were in the middle of the pride cycle.  I see a great amount of disparity of wealth in the Church today among members. 

Something to think about though.  I have not verified this, but I heard recently that if you make more than 33K in USD a year, you are in the top 1% of the world in regards to income.  Seeing how much most make in the US and Europe on average...something to make one ponder...(which includes me...obviously...thinking on how wicked or righteous I may actually be if that number is accurate).

 

I would add that the one thing added in the Book of Mormon to identify "prideful rich" is the purchase of costly apparel and I would add expensive adornments.  Dare I add show cars as a spiritual wealth crisis for our day?  My father, who was very rich, rejected costly apparel and avoided owning a auto (or house) that indicated opulence or wealthy status.    Perhaps my upbringing has cause me to be prejudice toward the wealthy the flaunt their riches or define themselves in terms of things.  Often I must bite my tongue when visiting someone wealthy that adorn themselves with expensive things.  

But then I must remind myself that (as you have pointed out) most of the world thinks all Americans adorn themselves with expensive things.  My son, while serving a mission in Mexico ask that we not send pictures our our Christmas to him.  That we avoid showing things that appear so much above the good people he taught in Mexico.

 

The Traveler

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19 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am not sure. 

Perhaps you could spend more time trying to understand before criticizing what you just now admitted that you didn't even see.

Quote

The scriptures have a lot to say about the rich - Jesus was not very complementary of the rich even when they contributed alms. 

Then Jesus seeing him, loved him. (the rich young man).

Edited by Carborendum

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6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Perhaps you could spend more time trying to understand before criticizing what you just now admitted that you didn't even see.

Then Jesus seeing him, loved him. (the rich young man).

I am now sorry I asked for more explanation.  

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

No, you didn't.  You simply attacked without realizing I actually was in agreement with you.  In all your responses to me in this thread, not a single question mark.

Your frustrations with Traveler are rather common.

It is the nature of conversations that people fill in or add their own context to what others say.  This can cause confusion and misunderstanding the greater the disconnect is between the desired context and the added context.  For whatever reason it appears the Traveler's context additions appear to be permanently dialed up to an 11.  This makes it any conversation with  him to be frustrating, because there is the conversation you are trying to have, and the conversation Traveler is trying to have are severely disconnected.  It like you were missing 3/4 of the conversation that would otherwise make those connections.

As for your point... is seems to me that the Dems tactics for awhile now is "Every Republican Candidate is Worse then Hitler" Disproving this pretty easy.  Showing that Trump has some good qualities and is therefore not "Worse then Hitler" is straight forward.  Mostly because they set the bar to clear so very very low.

 

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12 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Your frustrations with Traveler are rather common.

It is the nature of conversations that people fill in or add their own context to what others say.  This can cause confusion and misunderstanding the greater the disconnect is between the desired context and the added context.  For whatever reason it appears the Traveler's context additions appear to be permanently dialed up to an 11.  This makes it any conversation with  him to be frustrating, because there is the conversation you are trying to have, and the conversation Traveler is trying to have are severely disconnected. 

Interesting observation.

TBH, I was not all that frustrated with him at the beginning. I understood that it is common for people to miss certain words or sentences.  Everybody does that.  So, I was trying to be polite in asking him to check those items he missed. 

What was frustrating was that he then claimed that he did ask for clarification when he clearly never did.  Then he phrased it in such a way as to make me the bad guy.

Quote

It like you were missing 3/4 of the conversation that would otherwise make those connections.

I'm not sure if you meant this, but I'll point something out anyway.  If he said something in his conversation with JJ, I never read that.  That was with JJ.  But in his comments/responses to me... he didn't say anything that would have clarified anything beyond what I had already addressed.

Quote

As for your point... is seems to me that the Dems tactics for awhile now is "Every Republican Candidate is Worse then Hitler" Disproving this pretty easy.  Showing that Trump has some good qualities and is therefore not "Worse then Hitler" is straight forward.  Mostly because they set the bar to clear so very very low.

Thank you.  At least you got my point.

And further than "not worse than Hitler", I think he performed some acts of generosity that most people do not do anymore.  Again, that puts him in a better category "better than the average person of today's America.  Forgive me if I sound cyinical, but it seems this is also not a high bar to clear either.  

So, still not close to the Christlike ideal. Never claimed that.  But better than an average heathen?  I'll take it.

Edited by Carborendum

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

No, you didn't.  You simply attacked without realizing I actually was in agreement with you.  In all your responses to me in this thread, not a single question mark.

I don't see any attack in Traveler's posts. 

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Part of the reason I post is to bring to the attention of the forum or a specific poster "things" to various thoughts and ideas that may be missing or left out of various threads or posts.  If this is understood to be an attack or disagreement or even an act of arrogance - I apologize.  It would, perhaps, be more excusable if I were expert and without flaws in my own thoughts and responses.  Never-the-less  I do understand frustration when something that has already been resolved is presented again as if it were not.  Whenever I make such a mistake - please remind me.  I am dyslexic and often miss thoughts or the point being made or the logic involved.  I do not offer this as an excuse.  When I post something that is incorrect - it ought to be corrected.   If I have missed something - it is most helpful to state it clearly or to restate it again in a slightly different manner.  Otherwise, I most often will not know or connect to a specific frustration.  Sorry for my flaws

Thanks

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm not sure if you meant this, but I'll point something out anyway.  If he said something in his conversation with JJ, I never read that.  That was with JJ.  But in his comments/responses to me... he didn't say anything that would have clarified anything beyond what I had already addressed.

I didn't.... but I totally understand why you would go that direction.  What I was trying to say (and very likely poorly) is that through repeated observations that Travel tends to be off in his own world a lot.  That while I am sure his responses make perfect sense in his own head (and as he imagined it can or should go) it had repeatedly not translated well to those of us not privy to the interworkings of his mind.  This is why many of us choose not to engage him any more. 

 

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

So, still not close to the Christlike ideal. Never claimed that.  But better than an average heathen?  I'll take it.

I did not vote for Trump in the last election.  I did not feel he met the criteria of Good Character.  (Which is Lord's command to us.. thus a judgement I have to make about person for my personal use) and I did not trust what he would do with the powers of the Presidency (Which is a judgement I have to make as a voter).

Over the last few years, he has used the powers of the Presidency and I have to acknowledge that my fears were largely misplaced.  Sure I don't agree with everything he has done and a lot of people are complaining and screaming about it.  But largely all the complainers and screamers are people I expect to complain and scream when the job is being done reasonably like I think it should be done.

As for his character his flaws are still there.  But the correct use of power (as I see it) is a plus that was not there before.

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14 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I didn't.... but I totally understand why you would go that direction.  What I was trying to say (and very likely poorly) is that through repeated observations that Travel tends to be off in his own world a lot.  That while I am sure his responses make perfect sense in his own head (and as he imagined it can or should go) it had repeatedly not translated well to those of us not privy to the interworkings of his mind.  This is why many of us choose not to engage him any more. 

 

Cool.

56 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Part of the reason I post is to bring to the attention of the forum or a specific poster "things" to various thoughts and ideas that may be missing or left out of various threads or posts.  If this is understood to be an attack or disagreement or even an act of arrogance - I apologize.  It would, perhaps, be more excusable if I were expert and without flaws in my own thoughts and responses.  Never-the-less  I do understand frustration when something that has already been resolved is presented again as if it were not.  Whenever I make such a mistake - please remind me.  I am dyslexic and often miss thoughts or the point being made or the logic involved.  I do not offer this as an excuse.  When I post something that is incorrect - it ought to be corrected.   If I have missed something - it is most helpful to state it clearly or to restate it again in a slightly different manner.  Otherwise, I most often will not know or connect to a specific frustration.  Sorry for my flaws

I appreciate the apology.  And I hope you appreciate mine.  But in an effort to abide by your own advice for engaging with you...

1) I was NOT criticizing you for missing some part of my post.  Everyone does that.  When you apparently missed something, I was trying to be as polite as possible in trying to steer you in that direction, so you might be informed of what you missed.
2) When you persisted in reiterating your point, I offered a rebuttal. And at the same time I asked you to take a moment and consider.


3) Then you said that you had asked for more information when you hadn't.  This seemed like you were making a snarky remark.  You said you had asked.  But you didn't.

This was what seemed to lack civility.

For now, we'll both apologize and accept one another's apologies and move on.

Edited by Carborendum

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21 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Cool.

I appreciate the apology.  And I hope you appreciate mine.  But in an effort to abide by your own advice for engaging with you...

1) I was NOT criticizing you for missing some part of my post.  Everyone does that.  When you apparently missed something, I was trying to be as polite as possible in trying to steer you in that direction, so you might be informed of what you missed.
2) When you persisted in reiterating your point, I offered a rebuttal. And at the same time I asked you to take a moment and consider.


3) Then you said that you had asked for more information when you hadn't.  This seemed like you were making a snarky remark.  You said you had asked.  But you didn't.

This was what seemed to lack civility.

For now, we'll both apologize and accept one another's apologies and move on.

Often I tend to be blunt and show little emotion.  This is not by accident.  It has been my personal experience that ignoring logic and being emotional is a recipe for disaster.    My dear wife, who is much better in social settings often suggests that my bluntness in conversations are rude.  Enough about me.

My father was both successful and wise which took him very quickly from relative poverty to great wealth.  He grew up during the depression in a small 3 bedroom home with 13 siblings.   He raised his children to work as he had learned to work.  He believed that when children reached the age of accountably (8) that they should earn their own money and pay for their cloths and any other non essentials - like family vacations.  We were also required to do service - we were expected to be the first to arrive and the last to leave.  If any of us complained his response was always that we would never be expected to do as much or more than him.  He had enough cash to pay for the most expensive home in our stake - but he never did.  He did not drive a new car - it was always a beater - often requiring "special" knowledge to open doors, starting, rolling up and down the windows or other things.  If I could compare my father to some historical person - I would compare him to King Benjamin. 

It is my believe that wealth is the most likely result of living righteously (living according to covenant with G-d).  But the great temptation of wealth and riches is pride.  The kind of pride that convinces people that they "deserve" better than others.  Usually (always) this is demonstrated by "things" that can be purchased for money.  Sometimes even poor people will demonstrate such pride by thinking they deserve what belongs to others - This is also called coveting.   And so they wish that they had more money so that they could "have" what they deserve. 

I believe it is very clear that there is no place in "Heaven" for the prideful.  Those that adorn themselves or wish to adorn or present themselves with things will have similar  difficulty getting into heaven as a full grown camel will have in passing through the eye of a needle.  Jesus even made it clear that in using wealth as an offering to the poor to be seen or respected of others - is of the same prideful cloth as those with opulent attire or things to be seen and adored by others.

This pride of adornment has corrupted much of our entertainment and is the engine of hate that is the outgrowth of covetousness that destroyed the Nephits and is destroying the United States of America.   I find myself struggling and often reproved by others for my pride - Perhaps the greatest temptation of pride is to think we as an individual are rid of it.  Or thinking we are better than others at avoiding it.

 

The Traveler

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