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brotherofJared

Heavenly Parents

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Outside the fact that we are the literal spirit children of a Heavenly Father and Mother there is actually very little that we do know. But if we want to speculate we do know that spirit is element so it's possible that our "intelligence," whatever that is, was through that divine birthing process, again whatever that is, was united with our spirit bodies. But it's all speculation because there is so much that we don't know but what we do know is sufficient.

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On 10/3/2020 at 6:33 AM, laronius said:

Outside the fact that we are the literal spirit children of a Heavenly Father and Mother there is actually very little that we do know.

I'm not questioning whether or not we are the literal children of heavenly parents. My question is about what that means in light of the fact that we are all co-eternal with God the Father.

 

On 10/3/2020 at 6:33 AM, laronius said:

But if we want to speculate we do know that spirit is element so it's possible that our "intelligence," whatever that is, was through that divine birthing process, again whatever that is, was united with our spirit bodies.

I agree, there is a lot of "whatever that is". But one thing is clear, there was no "process" involved with the creation of our intelligence. That would seem to indicate that being literal children of heavenly parents is not equal to our understanding of being literal children of earthly parents. Which is my point.

I don't really care if there is speculation or not. The idea of literal parents is in question here, not that it occurred (I believe we are the literal offspring of heavenly parents), but the idea of what it means. The speculation that seems to prevail in the church is that literal parentage of heavenly spirits is equal to literal parentage of earthly children. I don't believe this is true. In other words, spirits do not grow up and mature. These spirits aren't born as babies don't start out as babies. 

Further, I believe it is ludicrous that God and one heavenly mother or even several heavenly mothers gave birth to an innumerable number of spirits in a way that resembles anything that would make us all literally, in the mortal sense, His offspring.

I agree with you. Some speculation is harmful, but it is most harmful when it is wrong and can't be supported by the scriptures. The co-eternal nature of man creates an insurmountable problem for the current speculation as I understand it to exist. I ran into a problem with this when I thought through the implications of exaltation in that we would have spirit children of our own and create worlds and put our children on them. The statement is an oversimplification of exaltation and when it occurred to me that we will never "be" God the Father doing what He did, I had to question my beliefs. After some consultation, I concluded that being like God is not the same as being Him. I then realized that we will always participate with him under His jurisdiction in the work that He does. I found that acceptable but, at first, I felt that the narrative that I had been lead to believe difficult to deal with and for a time, unacceptable... Of course, I had nowhere else to go because no one comes even close to these ideas - along the lines where we teach exaltation.

So, I'm just trying to process some ideas in a public forum. If this kind of discussion isn't welcomed here, then I'll go elsewhere.

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9 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

So, I'm just trying to process some ideas in a public forum. If this kind of discussion isn't welcomed here, then I'll go elsewhere.

Just an idea: Being coeternal still allows room for an order and progression from one state into another at different rates according to individual agency. It seems to me that God progressed into the subsequent estates before we did, and drew us along afterwards into the premortal estate and onward, and hopefully into our exaltation and beyond. The plan of happiness allows us to be like Him in every respect, and we too will bring coeternal intelligences after us in the same way He did, does and will continue to do, through the "continuation of the lives." A coeternal condition still allows for innumerable estates and progressive estates to exist within it prior to coming forth as a spirit child of heavenly parents.

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10 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I'm not questioning whether or not we are the literal children of heavenly parents. My question is about what that means in light of the fact that we are all co-eternal with God the Father.

I agree, there is a lot of "whatever that is". But one thing is clear, there was no "process" involved with the creation of our intelligence. That would seem to indicate that being literal children of heavenly parents is not equal to our understanding of being literal children of earthly parents. Which is my point.

You are right that there is no "process" involved in creation because there is no true creation as we would use the word in modern language. Rather the more precise definition is organized. Mortal "life" is organized by bringing a man and woman together uniting self existing life (we were born with that life already in us, scientists don't know how it came to be, perhaps an inheritance of the original breath of life) and then the woman's body continuously organizes already existing element to form a body for that life. And we call the result their literal offspring. So why cannot God "create" by organizing self existent life and element to create spirit beings He can literally call His children? As to how that happens exactly we don't know but I think it's unwise to try to pigeon hole God into doing things exactly how we do them. This life is only a shadow of our life there that only gives a general outline but without all the details. With that being the context of what potentially awaits those receiving exaltation what specifically brought you to the conclusion that we could never do what God does?

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11 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I don't really care if there is speculation or not. The idea of literal parents is in question here, not that it occurred (I believe we are the literal offspring of heavenly parents), but the idea of what it means. The speculation that seems to prevail in the church is that literal parentage of heavenly spirits is equal to literal parentage of earthly children. I don't believe this is true. In other words, spirits do not grow up and mature. These spirits aren't born as babies don't start out as babies. 

I an curious why you think there is a difference?  What do you believe is the difference and why.  I have my own opinions - not meaning to tread on yours but I would say that it seems to me that the things or order of things here on earth are patterned after the things of heaven.

 

The Traveler

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On 10/5/2020 at 6:14 AM, CV75 said:

Just an idea: Being coeternal still allows room for an order and progression from one state into another at different rates according to individual agency.

Agreed. If you mean from one state to another as in progress from intelligence to spirit to mortal to resurrected being. Those changes everyone had to go through and, of course, not everything was played out on the stage of mortality. Things happened before we were born into mortality things will continue to happen after mortality that will impact our salvation.

On 10/5/2020 at 6:14 AM, CV75 said:

t seems to me that God progressed into the subsequent estates before we did, and drew us along afterwards into the premortal estate and onward, and hopefully into our exaltation and beyond. The plan of happiness allows us to be like Him in every respect

Agreed. We will be like him in every respect, eventually.

 

On 10/5/2020 at 6:14 AM, CV75 said:

and we too will bring coeternal intelligences after us in the same way He did,

But he didn't bring any coeternal intelligences after him (unless I misunderstand what you mean by bringing them after him). All intelligences that have ever existed already exist and there will never be any more intelligences than there are today. This is what the scriptures tell us. "Intelligence ... was not created or made, neither indeed can be." There is a caveat that expands on what Intelligences is, "light of truth" and I don't know exactly how that applies but one thing is clear... God didn't create truth but he did expose it or shed light on it.

Now, if you mean that we will participate in bringing already existing intelligences to the alter as he brought us along, then yes. That's exactly correct. It

On 10/5/2020 at 6:14 AM, CV75 said:

the same way He did, does and will continue to do, through the "continuation of the lives."

One point on this statement. Here in mortality, we already participate in the "continuation of the seeds". I don't see any need for the meaning and "process" to change in the next life. We already know how to continue the seeds. We don't even need to be perfect to do it. We just have to be sealed by authority both in heaven and on earth and remain reconciled to Christ.

But none of this addresses my question. What can we conclude about our heavenly parents from the simple concept that we are all coeternal? How can God or anyone be our parent if we existed at the same time they did?

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On 10/5/2020 at 7:40 AM, laronius said:

You are right that there is no "process" involved in creation because there is no true creation as we would use the word in modern language. Rather the more precise definition is organized. Mortal "life" is organized by bringing a man and woman together uniting self existing life (we were born with that life already in us, scientists don't know how it came to be, perhaps an inheritance of the original breath of life) and then the woman's body continuously organizes already existing element to form a body for that life. And we call the result their literal offspring. So why cannot God "create" by organizing self existent life and element to create spirit beings He can literally call His children?

This question completely misses the point. There is no organization or creation in the formation of intelligence. It already exists had has always existed. While there may be some process of organization involved in creating our spirit bodies, there isn't anything involved with the formation of our intelligence. Now, I may be way off base here, but I believe that our intelligence is what makes us who we are. It is our identity. I suppose some may think it is some massive blob of intelligence which has no identity or it is God himself. This seems strange to me but it is an alternative and I'm willing to listen to any other ideas about what this intelligences is. Whatever it is, it can't be created by anyone.

On 10/5/2020 at 7:40 AM, laronius said:

As to how that happens exactly we don't know but I think it's unwise to try to pigeon hole God into doing things exactly how we do them.

I'm not pigeonholing the process. I'm questioning the existing speculation in the church that is believed by many to be exactly that. That God the Father and his wife or his wives produced trillions of spirits through sexual means. I believe this is false and it assumes that our being had a beginning and there is, I believe, a false narrative that God and his Wife raised our baby spirit selves to maturity (there are GA statements that appear to align with this idea. I believe are using terms that we are familiar with but we have no idea how they understood the terms they used.)

On 10/5/2020 at 7:40 AM, laronius said:

This life is only a shadow of our life there that only gives a general outline but without all the details.

I believe this life is a shadow of things WITH all the details of how things will be done there. We don't have spirit children here. We will not have spirit children there. Spirits may very well have their own spirit children. Consider this. If our spirit's form had the same appearance as our bodies do (this is an idea that comes from Jesus' statement to the brother of Jared when Jared saw his spirit form. I don't see why that which is right for him wouldn't be the same for everyone), then don't you all think it's odd that we look so much like our parents? Wouldn't our spirit form have looked very much like the family we were born in? This would suggest that the entire human family was foreordained from the beginning. Organized. Since we already existed before we were born as spirits, I would suspect that this organization was no accident, but that it was formed by choice, our choice, but the "breath of life was put into that spirit form in the same way that our spirits are put into our mortal bodies.

It's a thought, an idea. I have not yet stated how I think it worked but there are a few things here that need review. for example, who are our heavenly parents? If it is God the Father (literally, as we understand literal parentage here on earth), how did he do it? spirit begets spirit and flesh begets flesh. God is flesh. and if it is not God and his wife, can it be literal and, if so, how? 

Whatever the answers are, I believe they are right under our noses. Family, obviously, isn't something that was created for this life alone. It existed before this mortal existence and it will continue to exist after it. It is the very essence of the gospel. That tends to make me think that there is nothing new in the process of continuing the family. Spirit begets spirit and flesh begets flesh. To me, that is a guide for understanding family on both sides of the veil.

On 10/5/2020 at 7:40 AM, laronius said:

With that being the context of what potentially awaits those receiving exaltation what specifically brought you to the conclusion that we could never do what God does?

There are things that we will never do that God did. One, is to live a perfect mortal life. Two, die for the sins of all mankind under his dispensation. Three bleed from every pore and not die. Four, turn water into wine. There is also the progenitor of all flesh, obtained his body without having a mother. Someone started all this and we followed, but we aren't even able to live this life and sustain absolute perfection. The plan was created for us so that we could become like him. But that will take a very very long time. But no matter what, there is no way that we will ever do what he did because we have already been born and obtained our bodies and were saved from endless damnation through a Savior. Jesus didn't need a Savior and His Father didn't need a savior. There are some obvious differences between Him and us.

There is a conundrum here because there is more than just Him. Jesus' Father, the being we call Heavenly Father is not that great head to started everything. Our God and Father did, apparently, what Jesus did. That would mean that He was born of a mortal woman. We are not told anything about the great head of our species. We are told very little about our God and Father, but it seems apparent to me, that when we refer to God the Father, we are referring to a multitude of beings generally called Elohim (the gods) in the Old Testament. So I can say that the Father was born and that the great head of our species was not born of a mortal woman.

Now, I realize that this will set off some fruitcake alarms but my conclusions are not set in stone. As I said, I'm fleshing this out in a public forum risking ridicule and rejection. My question, if I can remain steady is to address what it means to be literal sons and daughter of God. I have already stated that we are the same species as God and since he started all of this or they started all of this, it is apparent that they are our literal parents through removed by eons of world that have gone before us. The question remains, can we safely say that our immediate spiritual parents are God the Father and his wife or are we literally his spirit children through the same means as we are his literal sons and daughters in the flesh as well?

Lots of reading here. Sorry, I'm so long-winded.

We will be like God, yes. We will have, eventually, all knowledge, all power, all presence and glory added upon glory. But we will not do what he did. Our path is not His path. We will share the throne, but he will always be the owner of that throne. We are but permitted participants and I don't think that will ever change. I don't see how it can.

I believe everyone will agree that we cannot replace God. I would go so far as to say that we cannot be God. Our experience is not his experience. Liking being God was not sufficient to know how to succor us. God had to live and experience what we experienced in order to know that. Likewise, since we cannot experience what he experienced (not just the pain and suffering, but the whole heartedness of such a being to be willing to submit to such suffering and pain... how can we know that experience?) we cannot be what He is.

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On 10/5/2020 at 7:44 AM, Traveler said:

I an curious why you think there is a difference?  What do you believe is the difference and why.

mortal birt is a beginning. We are not the same mortal age as our earthly parents but we are the same age as God. Therefore, God the Father and his wife could not have given birth to us and thus created a beginning for us where we would be born as spirit babies and raised to maturity.

On 10/5/2020 at 7:44 AM, Traveler said:

I have my own opinions - not meaning to tread on yours but I would say that it seems to me that the things or order of things here on earth are patterned after the things of heaven.

That's my opinion too. And that means that God the Father and his wife cannot possibly be our immediate heavenly parents, just like He and His wife are not our immediate earthly parents. It is my opinion that my heavenly parents are the very same beings as my earthly parents and that my connection to God as a Father is the same there, as it is here. In a nutshell, I believe that we resurrected beings of flesh and bone have children, they are beings of flesh and bone, not spirits. Adam and Eve were born in heaven from different parents (not a brother and sister from the same set of parents) and placed in the garden.

None of that process explains spirit children but I believe it happens exactly the same way though there is no garden and Jesus is the oldest, not Adam and spirits are not formed through sexual means. Families are formed by choice, by mutual agreement between. I just have a hard time with the idea that there are any such things as spirit babies or that spirits can give birth. There, the spiritual family would have been formed like the church of the firstborn is formed. Of course, God might have simply organized the family deciding for us who would be our parents and siblings. If that is the case, then we can say that God is our heavenly parent. but that formation is not the same as our mortal families.

Again, the idea of being born and raised to maturity for beings who are coeternal with God just doesn't make sense.

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@brotherofJared I wish I had more time to respond because you said a lot but I will hut a few if the bigger points.

1. You changed my question about why can't we do what God does to why can't we do what God did? And those are not the same questions. We also will not do all that Jesus did and yet the promise is if we are faithful we will be joint heirs with him and receive ALL that the father hath.

2. Concerning your remarks as to how spirit beings are shall we say "begotten" there is no official church doctrine. Anyone who has addressed the topic is expressing opinion only. The only certain thing that has been revealed officially is that we are the sons and daughters of God, a truth that can only be learned for certain from the Holy Ghost. Any extrapolation beyond that is only speculation and I say feel free to question that speculation as much as you want.  How exactly that happened we don't know. Though in your reasoning you state God is flesh but that doesn't mean He lost His spirit. It's still there. 

I wish I had time to address what I think is your core concern of exactly how like God we can become but I will be out of town for a couple days. Maybe I will pick this back up then if others haven't addressed it already. But I will say that hopefully at the end of the day you will put reasoning aside to gain a witness of the Spirit because ultimately that's the only way to know for sure.

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12 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Agreed. If you mean from one state to another as in progress from intelligence to spirit to mortal to resurrected being. Those changes everyone had to go through and, of course, not everything was played out on the stage of mortality. Things happened before we were born into mortality things will continue to happen after mortality that will impact our salvation.

Agreed. We will be like him in every respect, eventually.

 

But he didn't bring any coeternal intelligences after him (unless I misunderstand what you mean by bringing them after him). All intelligences that have ever existed already exist and there will never be any more intelligences than there are today. This is what the scriptures tell us. "Intelligence ... was not created or made, neither indeed can be." There is a caveat that expands on what Intelligences is, "light of truth" and I don't know exactly how that applies but one thing is clear... God didn't create truth but he did expose it or shed light on it.

Now, if you mean that we will participate in bringing already existing intelligences to the alter as he brought us along, then yes. That's exactly correct. It

One point on this statement. Here in mortality, we already participate in the "continuation of the seeds". I don't see any need for the meaning and "process" to change in the next life. We already know how to continue the seeds. We don't even need to be perfect to do it. We just have to be sealed by authority both in heaven and on earth and remain reconciled to Christ.

But none of this addresses my question. What can we conclude about our heavenly parents from the simple concept that we are all coeternal? How can God or anyone be our parent if we existed at the same time they did?

I’m saying He brought coeternal intelligences after Him in the sense that we became His spirit children and will continue to follow Him. He received a fulness of all truth and offers us the means to receive it also, which truth I take to be a condition or existence consisting of eternal life and exaltation.

I use the phrase “continuation of the seeds” in the context of D&C 132, which pertains to exaltation and allows for the role of advancing the progression of co-eternal intelligences within any inherited throne, kingdom, principality, and power, dominion (as in Moses 1:39).

For these reasons I believe it does address your question: we can conclude that our heavenly parents are coeternal with us, just as our earthly parents exist at the same time as we do, their ancestors (given a reasonable lifespan) do, and our children and descendants do (assuming a 2 to 4 generation lifespan). The way we manifest our existence is simply a matter of timing.

For example (applying the concept to our mortal phase), 6,000 years ago all people co-existed with Adam and Eve as their DNA, the elements of their dominion and stewardship (the earth), and priesthood organization). Within the marriage, their DNA directed and organized the elements generation after generation of all people. Thus, the people of the earth might manifest in any number of estates: as ancient DNA, more recent DNA, germ cells, zygotes, babies, adults and old people concurrently with the mortal and then resurrected Adam and Eve and are thus co-eternal with Adam and Eve and each other. This is analogous to the co-eternal intelligences and spirits coexisting with God and manifesting in different estates at different times.

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9 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

That God the Father and his wife or his wives produced trillions of spirits through sexual means.

As long as gender is an essential characteristic and marriage requires a man and a woman, sexual means cannot be avoided whether through procreation or adoption. In either case, many separate processes and functions must be carried out that are unique to each parent.

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9 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

.Again, the idea of being born and raised to maturity for beings who are coeternal with God just doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense when there are so many estates the coeternal beings go through at a different times and paces.

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24 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It makes perfect sense when there are so many estates the coeternal beings go through at a different times and paces.

Indeed... Take for example our earthly parents.  They are our parents and they have begotten us.  But they are also our Brother and Sister because we are all Children of Heavenly parents.  Having one type of relationship status does not preclude the other from also being true.  We are children of Heavenly parents and we are also co-enteral with them.  One does not preclude the other.

 

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A important thing here: we humans default to "parent" = "somebody whom gave literal birth to our physical body".   That's obviously not the case for spiritual parents.  We don't know how the mechanics involved with eternal intelligences / spirits, etc, but it's not the bodily mechanics we think of with bodily parents.  

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36 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

That's obviously not the case for spiritual parents. 

How is this obvious? I assume my spiritual parents begat me in spirit exactly as my physical parents begat me in the flesh.

37 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

We don't know how the mechanics involved with eternal intelligences / spirits, etc, but it's not the bodily mechanics we think of with bodily parents.

How do you know this? Why would we assume that the "bodily mechanics" of a resurrected couple must be fundamentally different from that of a mortal couple?

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59 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

A important thing here: we humans default to "parent" = "somebody whom gave literal birth to our physical body".   That's obviously not the case for spiritual parents.  We don't know how the mechanics involved with eternal intelligences / spirits, etc, but it's not the bodily mechanics we think of with bodily parents.  

Yes, Jesus spiritually begot us as the Father of our spiritual rebirth here in mortality. I’m sure pre-mortal spirits and intelligences can be “reborn” in the same way, advancing in their attainments as spirits in the presence of our Heavenly Patents along the path to qualify for and enter mortality. And also: whatever else it takes, both spiritually and physically, for heavenly parents to organize, bring forth or beget spirit children, it requires inseparably connected and exalted bodies and spirits with unique gender characteristics of spirit, flesh and bone that will not be superfluous or unemployed.

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42 minutes ago, Vort said:

How is this obvious? I assume my spiritual parents begat me in spirit exactly as my physical parents begat me in the flesh.

How do you know this? Why would we assume that the "bodily mechanics" of a resurrected couple must be fundamentally different from that of a mortal couple?

Your bodily parents created your physical body -- the whole conception / pregnancy / delivery process done through bodily means.  It's an area us humans have studied a lot.

Your Heavenly Parents predate you having a body, and are instead parents of your spirit.  We don't know how that works.  

 

Edited by Jane_Doe

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23 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

We don't know how that works. 

Agreed. This is exactly the case—we don't know how it works. So it's entirely possible that it works very similar to how mortal creation and birth work.

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14 hours ago, laronius said:

1. You changed my question about why can't we do what God does to why can't we do what God did?

I believe those are the same things. Whether he did it or does it, it is the same.

14 hours ago, laronius said:

And those are not the same questions.

I believe they are the same. Considering that the worlds will continue without end. There will be other Saviors and there will be other Heavenly Fathers. So What Heavenly Father did, what His Son did, will play out endlessly throughout eternity. We will never be able to do what he did

The fantasy that we will create worlds and for our spirit children is the false speculation that currently exists in the church. At least, that's the question I'm trying to discuss.

 

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15 hours ago, laronius said:

Concerning your remarks as to how spirit beings are shall we say "begotten" there is no official church doctrine. Anyone who has addressed the topic is expressing opinion only.

Those opinions is what I'm questioning. I know there are people who insist that speculation is bad or even wrong. but where we have no perfect knowledge, there will always be speculation to fill the void and I'm questioning the current speculation that is promulgated in our literature (since you say there is no official church doctrine on the subject).

So the question persists, how can co-eternal beings be the parents of beings who already exist?

15 hours ago, laronius said:

The only certain thing that has been revealed officially is that we are the sons and daughters of God, a truth that can only be learned for certain from the Holy Ghost.

There are many "certain things" that have been revealed and I have presented one of them here and that is that we are co-eternal with God. I'm not denying that we are sons and daughters of God. I'm asking how we can collate these two doctrines so that they can both be true.

15 hours ago, laronius said:

Any extrapolation beyond that is only speculation and I say feel free to question that speculation as much as you want.  How exactly that happened we don't know. Though in your reasoning you state God is flesh but that doesn't mean He lost His spirit. It's still there. 

I'm not sure what you mean by that, that his spirit is still there. So, God is a dual being who sometimes produces spirit children and sometimes produces physical children... Why can't we produce spirit children then? Is that a "godly" attribute that we will obtain after the resurrection? I don't know how to ask these questions without being pithy. So, apparently, God, before we have been exalted did personally produce billions upon billions of spirits through one or two of his wives? I wonder how long the gestation period is for that and how many women will be willing to go through that several billion times before a world can be formed. I haven't found any woman who wants to do that. All of that have heard it, appear to take it with a grain of salt. Yeah sure. Like that's going to happen.

It is easy enough to see that a son from this family and a daughter from that family can create a whole world of beings. We don't need to give birth to all the beings who will ever live ourselves. It only takes two and, given the ability to reproduce and the commandment to reproduce, the billions that come forth seem to automatically appear all by themselves. It's automatic and saves a lot of wear and tear on one person.

This is just looking at it logically. It doesn't make sense that God would do all that himself when there is already a means for reproduction.  While I am repurposing Jesus words, John 3:6, Spirit begets spirit and flesh begets flesh. We are also spirit beings but none of us is able to produce a spirit being. We produce physical beings.

I'm all over the board here and I apologize. I just can't see how God also being a spirit has anything to do with how spirits are "begotten".

15 hours ago, laronius said:

I wish I had time to address what I think is your core concern of exactly how like God we can become but I will be out of town for a couple days. Maybe I will pick this back up then if others haven't addressed it already. But I will say that hopefully at the end of the day you will put reasoning aside to gain a witness of the Spirit because ultimately that's the only way to know for sure.

My reasoning came as a result of a witness of the spirit. I'm not concerned about how we can become like God. The scriptures are explicit on this matter. D&C 132:19-20 

"...which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end...", 

This part will be immediate. Add to that perfection, knowledge and power we will be like him but we will never do what he did.

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14 hours ago, CV75 said:

I’m saying He brought coeternal intelligences after Him in the sense that we became His spirit children and will continue to follow Him. He received a fulness of all truth and offers us the means to receive it also, which truth I take to be a condition or existence consisting of eternal life and exaltation.

That we "became His spirit children" is the focus of my question. To understand our role in the next life, we have to have a better understanding of how that happened. I believe most people just accept that we are his spirit children and they never think that someday we will also have spirit children. How does that happen? I disagree with the current speculation on how that happens because the beings who become spirit children are co-eternal with the beings who are supposedly their heavenly parents. It is a change, for sure, but the intelligences that were spiritually begotten had a choice in it just like those who are spiritually begotten in mortality, IMO.

 

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

For these reasons I believe it does address your question: we can conclude that our heavenly parents are coeternal with us, just as our earthly parents exist at the same time as we do, their ancestors (given a reasonable lifespan) do, and our children and descendants do (assuming a 2 to 4 generation lifespan). The way we manifest our existence is simply a matter of timing.

What you've just described here is the basis for my question. I agree, we are all co-eternal. But God is not my mortal father and His wife is not my mortal mother. My heavenly parents do not have to be God himself. God can be the Father of us all, not directly, but still literally.

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14 hours ago, CV75 said:

As long as gender is an essential characteristic and marriage requires a man and a woman, sexual means cannot be avoided whether through procreation or adoption. In either case, many separate processes and functions must be carried out that are unique to each parent.

I'm not questioning the role of sex in procreation. I'm questioning the role of sex in creating spirits. I do not believe they are procreated unless their parents are spirits who have never been mortal and even then, I doubt it would be through sex. That's how it works among mortals or beings of flesh and bone.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of our role after the resurrection. I do not believe that resurrected beings have spirit babies. I do not believe that they raise these spirit babies to maturity. I do not believe that spirits even have an identifiable age. They would be as eternal as their intelligence except that before they were a spirit they had no family identity.

Our role, where spirits are concerned would be whatever God did for us, IF it hasn't been done already. It is quite possible that the worlds that will be inhabited may also already be formed. There is no reason to wait billions of years to get started. My question is about what God did for us that we will also be doing. It could have been as simple as associating / organizing every intelligence to a family. No sex. No birth. Just a simple assignment. Organizing the families and setting key persons in those families to ensure the work would roll forward. Or, it could have been that an agreement among the intelligences growing my choice. I just don't see God having sex to produce spirit children.

 

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7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

That we "became His spirit children" is the focus of my question. To understand our role in the next life, we have to have a better understanding of how that happened. I believe most people just accept that we are his spirit children and they never think that someday we will also have spirit children. How does that happen? I disagree with the current speculation on how that happens because the beings who become spirit children are co-eternal with the beings who are supposedly their heavenly parents. It is a change, for sure, but the intelligences that were spiritually begotten had a choice in it just like those who are spiritually begotten in mortality, IMO.

What you've just described here is the basis for my question. I agree, we are all co-eternal. But God is not my mortal father and His wife is not my mortal mother. My heavenly parents do not have to be God himself. God can be the Father of us all, not directly, but still literally.

7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I'm not questioning the role of sex in procreation. I'm questioning the role of sex in creating spirits. I do not believe they are procreated unless their parents are spirits who have never been mortal and even then, I doubt it would be through sex. That's how it works among mortals or beings of flesh and bone.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of our role after the resurrection. I do not believe that resurrected beings have spirit babies. I do not believe that they raise these spirit babies to maturity. I do not believe that spirits even have an identifiable age. They would be as eternal as their intelligence except that before they were a spirit they had no family identity.

Our role, where spirits are concerned would be whatever God did for us, IF it hasn't been done already. It is quite possible that the worlds that will be inhabited may also already be formed. There is no reason to wait billions of years to get started. My question is about what God did for us that we will also be doing. It could have been as simple as associating / organizing every intelligence to a family. No sex. No birth. Just a simple assignment. Organizing the families and setting key persons in those families to ensure the work would roll forward. Or, it could have been that an agreement among the intelligences growing my choice. I just don't see God having sex to produce spirit children.

The scriptures give us the essential framework, and I’m sure we will understand it better as time rolls on. I’m sure that agency and its expansion corresponding to the development level of each estate is involved. Exalted parents have sexual reproduction by virtue of their respective genders, even if you might not know know exactly how that is carried out. I don’t think the amount of time you might think it takes according our current reckoning of time (especially if conceptualizing eternity from a telestial standpoint) is much of a factor.

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22 hours ago, CV75 said:

It makes perfect sense when there are so many estates the coeternal beings go through at a different times and paces.

That statement could easily be constructed as an argument for reincarnation.

Spirits don't die, do they? That state of being will never end. There is no death of our spirits and can never be an end. But that is not true of our mortality. This state has a beginning and an end. I'm just saying that the beginning of this state is not the same as the beginning of our spirit state. There is no reason to believe that the state of our spirits began the same as the state of our mortality even though we call those beginnings, birth.

 

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