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brotherofJared

Heavenly Parents

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22 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

That statement could easily be constructed as an argument for reincarnation.

Spirits don't die, do they? That state of being will never end. There is no death of our spirits and can never be an end. But that is not true of our mortality. This state has a beginning and an end. I'm just saying that the beginning of this state is not the same as the beginning of our spirit state. There is no reason to believe that the state of our spirits began the same as the state of our mortality even though we call those beginnings, birth.

You are free to use that statement to argue for reincarnation, or evolution for that matter, just as you are free to argue for "no reproduction" given that we are all co eternal and already independently "produced."

It is semantic, which isn't a bad thing. As long as we progress, we are in a state of production, and as long as we have a dynamic with those who have produced before us (parents need a baby and a baby needs parents), we are in a state of reproduction: both the parents reproduce and the germs that become the zygote reproduce; one is a reproduction "from" and the other a reproduction "to." This is why and how agency is key even though we have the veil of forgetfulness.

Spirits die in that they change: advancement is death in one estate with the subsequent birth into the next. Each estate I pass through, my co-eternal self will never be the same again.

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22 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Indeed... Take for example our earthly parents.  They are our parents and they have begotten us.  But they are also our Brother and Sister because we are all Children of Heavenly parents.  Having one type of relationship status does not preclude the other from also being true.  We are children of Heavenly parents and we are also co-enteral with them.  One does not preclude the other.

 

So God is also our Brother or Sister. That has been my point all along. Your scenario allows for heavenly parents being the very same beings who are our earthly parents. That, I believe, is a reasonable explanation for being raised to maturity, except for one thing. Christ was the firstborn of all creation. So, something occurred out of order. Christ would have been inserted into the natural process of family. For that reason, I find it difficult to believe that any of us were raised to maturity. Further, when you consider the idea that many of us were held in reserve (that's not scripture, that I know of, but can easily be supported by the advent of specific beings and specific times, Joseph Smith, for example. These beings are not products of their families or of the environment they were born in. They stood out from all the rest. And Christ was preeminent from the moment of his spiritual birth. That is not something that can be raised to maturity. He already was what he is. The placement of these beings indicates that someone established that order. I don't believe it was naturally occurring through a process that resembles anything like our birth here and being raised to maturity in mortality.

This post contains how I believe God the Father with the help of his wife or wives can be understood as being our heavenly parents. In essence, we were organized into families that we are now part of (Abr 3:21-23)

I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen. ... Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the  intelligences  that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the  noble  and great ones; ... These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; 

Here, we have a transition where before, they were intelligences, then they were organized and then they were spirits. No birth and no maturity. They were already what they were. Am I wrong? Have I misunderstood these passages?

Note: I grab bits and pieces along the way and I noticed there have been claims of a witness of the spirit and on the basis of scripture. I don't know why you all think I'm getting my ideas from anywhere else. So, I thought I might highlight along the way, the text I have obtained from scripture starting with this post. Both are the basis for my questions.

 

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1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

This post contains how I believe God the Father with the help of his wife or wives can be understood as being our heavenly parents. In essence, we were organized into families that we are now part of (Abr 3:21-23)

I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen. ... Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the  intelligences  that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the  noble  and great ones; ... These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; 

Here, we have a transition where before, they were intelligences, then they were organized and then they were spirits. No birth and no maturity. They were already what they were. Am I wrong? Have I misunderstood these passages?

In mortality, patriarchs organize us both in terms of flesh and blood (physical organization of DNA), family and larger units (social organization), and covenants (spiritual organization).

The transitions between intelligence and spirit and spirit to separably connected spirit and body (soul) to inseparably connected soul are forms of death and birth.

The common thread in organizing others is priesthood, a fullness of which requires a couple acting in marriage. The organization of oneself is agency, but requires association with those less advanced and more advanced in order to choose to progress.

You were already what you are in your great-great-great-grandparents' DNA, and in Adam an Eve's DNA, and in any other co-eternal states and estates. At the same time, you will never again be what you were an hour ago, or as an intelligence eons ago.

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@brotherofJared there are some points to your thinking - but it is my personal opinion that you are missing or are ignoring other points.  Here are some thoughts:

1. The basis of family is marriage.  Marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman.  In this life we know that the human race is only propagated through male-female sex.  I do not follow your logic that sex in not a divine design for eternal husband - wife relationships and the creation of life.

2. In scripture the label or title of child, children, son or daughter denotes a covenant - for example the term "Son of G-d" implies a covenant with G-d - as does "the children of G-d" or "children of Israel".  For most of history if a child was born outside of a marriage covenant they were considered illegitimate and had no legal family right or claim.   I bring this up because there is a growing trend to consider that if you hang around someone or like them - they are family.  I am quite sure that without covenant there is no eternal family claim - legally or morally.  (See D&C 132).  I see no logic in families consisting of only brothers and sisters without parents of at least one male and one female.

3. The ancient concept of "born" also denotes a covenant.  The idea taught by Jesus of being Born Again centers around this notion.  It is logical to me that every child that comes into this life - comes through covenant.  I see no reason not to assume that all such arrangements were pre-arranged in the pre-existence.  It is logical to me that we have spent significantly more time with more understanding and knowledge in the pre-existence than here in this life.  Therefore, it is logical to me that "important things" were arranged there rather than here.

4. Generally ordinances are performed as a type and shadow of what is to come or what has taken place or been determined.  For example, anciently the ordinance of animal sacrifice was a type and shadow of what would come when Christ too upon our sins.  Then baptism is an ordinance today that is a type and shadow of what Christ did in the past for us to wash away our sins.  I am sure there was an ordinance and ordinances performed in the pre-existence that were types and shadows of our spiritual birth of heavenly parents.  It is my personal opinion that our spirits were "changed" and given power (light and intelligence) that could not have come by any other means when we were spiritually born of our divine parents.  From my scientific background I favor the idea of a spiritual conception from which our spirit essence grew and developed form like unto our parents - all through covenant.

 

The Traveler

 

 

Edited by Traveler

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When I think of the so-called lurkers who peruse this site, both LDS and non-LDS, I sometimes think that some of the speculative posts by the Saints are more damaging than the trolls by dedicated antiMormons.

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41 minutes ago, Vort said:

When I think of the so-called lurkers who peruse this site, both LDS and non-LDS, I sometimes think that some of the speculative posts by the Saints are more damaging than the trolls by dedicated antiMormons.

Agreed. This question is not important in any way and is not pertinent to anyone's salvation or current standing in the world. The Lord has also asked that sacred things not be trifled with. Is the process ultimately important...yes. However, I prefer to ask questions whose answers will be able to help me grow and progress in the present. I have no reason to teach my 6 year old son about home insurance and income taxes...it doesn't matter to him right now. Plus, he wouldn't understand it if I tried to tell him...and even if he was able to comprehend it, he doesn't have a reason to apply that knowledge at this time in his life, so it would have no real value to him. God will teach us about certain "mysteries" when it is appropriate and applicable.

Also, we all need to be able to tolerate milk before moving on to meat...otherwise you might choke on it. This is the reason for many a person's apostasy in the church.

Edited by scottyg
spelling

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4 minutes ago, scottyg said:

Agreed. This question is not important in any way and is not pertinent to anyone's salvation or current standing in the world. The Lord has also asked that sacred things not be trifled with. Is the process ultimately important...yes. However, I prefer to ask questions whose answers will be able to help me grow and progress in the present. I have no reason to teach my 6 year old son about home insurance and income taxes...it doesn't matter to him right now. Plus, he wouldn't understand it if I tried to tell him...and even if he was able to comprehend it, he doesn't have a reason to apply that knowledge at this time in his life, so it would have no real value to him. God will teach us about certain "mysteries" when it is appropriate and applicable.

I agree with the above, but there's more to it than that. Most speculation is garbage. When speculation gets treated as actual Church doctrine in the minds of participants or readers, then not only do we run the danger of casting pearls before swine, but we run the much bigger (and IMO more damaging) risk of people thinking that the Restored Church actually believes and teaches the nonsense being discussed.

Edited by Vort

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23 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

A important thing here: we humans default to "parent" = "somebody whom gave literal birth to our physical body".   That's obviously not the case for spiritual parents.  We don't know how the mechanics involved with eternal intelligences / spirits, etc, but it's not the bodily mechanics we think of with bodily parents.  

Agreed. Our understanding of what a parent is, from a human perspective, is not sufficient to explain the birth of spirits or even the order of family as we now know it here. Once we begin to get a clear understanding that it is not the same and therefore, words such as "begotten" and phrases such as "raised to maturity" take on new meaning. I'm not entirely sure that those who produced these terms understood them the same way we do. I know that, growing up in the church, I always thought they were exactly as we understand them in human terms. There are statements in our manuals that tend to support that understanding.

The idea that we will go off and make worlds of our own and people them with our spirit children seems preposterous to me now. The narrative is ok, but it has to be couched in the idea of community. We will not be doing any of this alone or even as a couple, but instead, it will always be under the direction of and in concert with Christ. We will continue the seeds, yes. But those seeds will not be spirits except through the act of organizing them from preexisting intelligences (i propose that we will organize them into families), but that is not the process of continuing the seeds. The process of continuing the seeds, IMO, will continue exactly as we continue the seeds now.

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On 10/7/2020 at 10:20 AM, Vort said:

How is this obvious? I assume my spiritual parents begat me in spirit exactly as my physical parents begat me in the flesh.

How many spirit children do you think your spiritual parents had that way? How long do you think it took for your spirit parents to produce a spirit child?

 

On 10/7/2020 at 10:20 AM, Vort said:

How do you know this? Why would we assume that the "bodily mechanics" of a resurrected couple must be fundamentally different from that of a mortal couple?

Probably because the mechanics of producing every human spirit that will ever live from single set of parents doesn't make sense, especially from a woman's point of view.

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4 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

How many spirit children do you think your spiritual parents had that way? How long do you think it took for your spirit parents to produce a spirit child?

Probably because the mechanics of producing every human spirit that will ever live from single set of parents doesn't make sense, especially from a woman's point of view.

The number and reckoning are not relevant, only relative, even among women. For example, how many children are too many, and how many months of spacing are insufficient? What is the difference between organizing matter that is more fine or pure and less discernible than the elements that mortals are constrained to work with? What are the physical, social and spiritual differences between a mortal soul and an exalted soul?

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5 hours ago, Vort said:

When I think of the so-called lurkers who peruse this site, both LDS and non-LDS, I sometimes think that some of the speculative posts by the Saints are more damaging than the trolls by dedicated antiMormons.

I encourage them to ask good questions of sound sources, and that https://www.comeuntochrist.org/ and https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/?lang=eng are more fully representative of our teachings and edifying potential.

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On 10/8/2020 at 2:25 PM, brotherofJared said:

Agreed. Our understanding of what a parent is, from a human perspective, is not sufficient to explain the birth of spirits or even the order of family as we now know it here. Once we begin to get a clear understanding that it is not the same and therefore, words such as "begotten" and phrases such as "raised to maturity" take on new meaning. I'm not entirely sure that those who produced these terms understood them the same way we do. I know that, growing up in the church, I always thought they were exactly as we understand them in human terms. There are statements in our manuals that tend to support that understanding.

The idea that we will go off and make worlds of our own and people them with our spirit children seems preposterous to me now. The narrative is ok, but it has to be couched in the idea of community. We will not be doing any of this alone or even as a couple, but instead, it will always be under the direction of and in concert with Christ. We will continue the seeds, yes. But those seeds will not be spirits except through the act of organizing them from preexisting intelligences (i propose that we will organize them into families), but that is not the process of continuing the seeds. The process of continuing the seeds, IMO, will continue exactly as we continue the seeds now.

BOJ,

The summary of your central argument is this:

Quote

Because we know it isn't EXACTLY like we see things in mortality, then it MUST be NOTHING like what we're familiar with.  Therefore, the ENTIRE concept that we have in our minds is COMPLETELY false doctrine.

Not buying it.

Edited by Carborendum

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5 hours ago, CV75 said:

The scriptures give us the essential framework, and I’m sure we will understand it better as time rolls on.

Time is rolling on and I think it's time that we consider the essential framework of the scriptures to better understand it. I'm not making this up from non-existing material.

 

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On 10/9/2020 at 1:04 PM, Carborendum said:

BOJ,

The summary of your central argument is this:

Not buying it.

I'm glad you're not buying it. That's not what I'm selling.

 

On 10/9/2020 at 1:04 PM, Carborendum said:

Because we know it isn't EXACTLY like we see things in mortality, then it MUST be NOTHING like what we're familiar with.  Therefore, the ENTIRE concept that we have in our minds is COMPLETELY false doctrine.

This misses an essential portion of my question and that is that the scriptures suggest that birth to heavenly parents is not anything like birth in mortality.  I haven't really been back to this argument because for me, it is settled. When I put together Abraham 3 (below), I had the answer to my questions. 

 

On 10/8/2020 at 8:47 AM, brotherofJared said:

I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen. ... Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the  intelligences  that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the  noble  and great ones; ... These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; 

We were not born as infant spirits nor were we raised to maturity. God organized the intelligences. They did not roll out in familial order. They were placed in accordance with God's wisdom in order to bring about and accomplish his work. That process, "organizing the intelligences", can be considered a birth or a beginning of sorts, but it wasn't an 9 month gestation period with an occasional set of multiple children being born in one set.

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On 10/8/2020 at 4:53 PM, CV75 said:

The number and reckoning are not relevant, only relative, even among women. For example, how many children are too many, and how many months of spacing are insufficient? What is the difference between organizing matter that is more fine or pure and less discernible than the elements that mortals are constrained to work with? What are the physical, social and spiritual differences between a mortal soul and an exalted soul?

I haven't met a woman yet who found the reckoning and number of 100's of billions of offspring regardless of how long it takes to produce that many children is relevant. None of them are willing to submit to such barbarism. It's not very practical to expect that any single woman is going to produce that many children for just one planet and then do it again and again for worlds without end. 

It's far more practical to extend the family just like we do it here and every woman can participate as they choose by having the number of children they want or having none if they so choose. The ability to have children does not mean that we must have children. My question might have been better understood if I had asked, do you think that our mother in heaven produced the 100 billion children that were born on this earth? How many 100's of billions of children do you think she is still producing?

The relevance is that it is not practical that a single being would produce or be the mother of that many offspring, personally, or even sharing the load (pun intended) with several other sister wives.

What isn't relevant is the social, physical and spiritual differences between a mortal soul and an exalted soul - as far as how many children a single woman might be expected to produce through out the eternities.

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On 10/8/2020 at 9:37 AM, NeedleinA said:

Our Sister?

I don't know. Is God a singular entity or is God binary? Can he do all this without a woman? When I refer to God, I understand it to be Elohim or the gods. Not just one individual, but a multitude. This seems important to me seeing as after exaltation, there is very little recognizable difference between any of them as far as power, authority and knowledge. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.

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On 10/8/2020 at 11:54 AM, Vort said:

I agree with the above, but there's more to it than that. Most speculation is garbage. When speculation gets treated as actual Church doctrine in the minds of participants or readers, then not only do we run the danger of casting pearls before swine, but we run the much bigger (and IMO more damaging) risk of people thinking that the Restored Church actually believes and teaches the nonsense being discussed.

I agree with that. And the nonsense being taught in the church today is that we will make our own planets and put our own spirit children on them. That speculation is not correct and it is damaging, IMO.

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On 10/8/2020 at 11:04 AM, Traveler said:

1. The basis of family is marriage.  Marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman.  In this life we know that the human race is only propagated through male-female sex.  I do not follow your logic that sex in not a divine design for eternal husband - wife relationships and the creation of life.

I don't think I ever produced such logic. If I gave that impression, it's not what I meant. Sex between husband and wife will continue, IMO, just as it does here and for the same purpose. That will continue throughout eternity. That is continuing the seeds. My point is that is not the way spirit children are formed. I hope this is cleared up now.

On 10/8/2020 at 11:04 AM, Traveler said:

In scripture the label or title of child, children, son or daughter denotes a covenant - for example the term "Son of G-d" implies a covenant with G-d - as does "the children of G-d" or "children of Israel".  For most of history if a child was born outside of a marriage covenant they were considered illegitimate and had no legal family right or claim.   I bring this up because there is a growing trend to consider that if you hang around someone or like them - they are family.  I am quite sure that without covenant there is no eternal family claim - legally or morally.  (See D&C 132).  I see no logic in families consisting of only brothers and sisters without parents of at least one male and one female.

I see no logic in that either. I'm not sure what point you are driving at. The concept of family will always exist had has always existed. That does not change the fact that we are co-eternal with God. Because we are all co-eternal with God, I do believe that at one point in time, we were without family. Family was vital to our progress, but the concept has always existed. The idea that I'm trying discuss is how that relationship, being co-eternal, affects the development of family. I assume that the only point where we forgot our previous estate was at mortal birth. I don't believe we go through cycles where we forget everything we ever knew and start over again repeatedly. Do spirit children forget their preexistence as intelligences? I don't think so. I don't think there are any spirit babies. They aren't raised to maturity. They aren't born in the same way as mortal children are born.

On 10/8/2020 at 11:04 AM, Traveler said:

The ancient concept of "born" also denotes a covenant.  The idea taught by Jesus of being Born Again centers around this notion.  It is logical to me that every child that comes into this life - comes through covenant.  I see no reason not to assume that all such arrangements were pre-arranged in the pre-existence.  It is logical to me that we have spent significantly more time with more understanding and knowledge in the pre-existence than here in this life.  Therefore, it is logical to me that "important things" were arranged there rather than here.

"Arranged there rather than here" is, in my mind, the same as saying they were "pre-arranged". In essence, I understand the spiritual birth in the preexistence to be a covenant and not a literal birth in the same sense as mortal birth. Since I see it as a covenant it makes sense to me that we chose to be children of God, but our lineage, the order in which we were born into mortality, was "organized", IMO. For example. I believe, Satan is also a spirit and that makes him a child of God, but he has no familial, nor do I believe he was ever supposed to be someone's mortal son and chose to abort or leave that family. 

So, I guess I'm reconciling two threads here. One is as a son of God, which you have stated is by covenant. This is not a being who is born of a father and mother. And then we have the family that we are associated with in mortality who we look like and are similar characteristics. This is the same duality of family we have in mortality. We are born, naturally of our mortal parents and we are born by covenant, a son of God whose mother not seen and there is no literal birth. I believe this same duality continues throughout eternity and that spirits are formed in much the same way (this would seem to indicate spirit babies, but I believe the organization of family is simply by appointment, not birth. This is obviously a gray area even for me, and I'm willing to be wrong, but the point of this discussion is that God, the Father's wife did not give birth to our spirits).

On 10/8/2020 at 11:04 AM, Traveler said:

Generally ordinances are performed as a type and shadow of what is to come or what has taken place or been determined.  For example, anciently the ordinance of animal sacrifice was a type and shadow of what would come when Christ too upon our sins.  Then baptism is an ordinance today that is a type and shadow of what Christ did in the past for us to wash away our sins.  I am sure there was an ordinance and ordinances performed in the pre-existence that were types and shadows of our spiritual birth of heavenly parents. 

You may not believe this or you may not accept it, but I believe this aligns with what I've been saying.

On 10/8/2020 at 11:04 AM, Traveler said:

It is my personal opinion that our spirits were "changed" and given power (light and intelligence) that could not have come by any other means when we were spiritually born of our divine parents.  From my scientific background I favor the idea of a spiritual conception from which our spirit essence grew and developed form like unto our parents - all through covenant.

I see this from the opposite perspective. Our light and intelligence was given spirit form that could not have come by any other means except through covenants with God. I believe we were already developed when we made that covenant. I believe our identity, the essence of our being is in our intelligence, the amount of light and truth we were willing to accept or emanate and our spirit was just the embodiment of that intelligence, just as I believe that our physical bodies is simply the embodiment of that same intelligence or light and truth. 

I hope this makes some sense. The issue I have is that it does impact our salvation; or the expectation of our salvation.There are a lot of people that accept things as they come and are willing to dwell in the uncertainty of what will come. They have a come-what-may kind of attitude. Any discussion of what may be will be meaningless to these people. I'm not that way. I have expectations and when that expectation is not met I am disappointed and often feel cheated. I don't buy into this idea that whatever will be will be far better than anything I could have ever imagined. Not so. That's for born-again Christians who have no clue what the next life will be. Of course, anything besides singing in a choir for eternity would be an improvement so maybe if my expectations were low, I could be impressed, but our expectations in this church are not low.

In my apologetics, I frequently face ridicule for the childish view that our church as that we will be Gods. And don't get me wrong, I believe we will be, but the idea that we will ever do what God did (it baffles me that the present and future tense would be in question here, but anyway) simply cannot be. So, first expectation shot down. We're not going to do everything that God did. Never will happen in an eternity. We not going to make planets and put our own spirit children on them and be like God the Father over those planets. That is never going to happen, noting any eternity. There's another expectation shot down. The disappointment is rising. Our doctrine teaches simply this, that we will be gods because we will continue to increase and this increase comes solely through continuing the seeds, not in knowledge or power, but in children. I think it is very important to know and understand how that works and in what it will mean to us and for them. Will we create worlds without end? Probably. Will we put our own children on them? I hope not. I mean, consider this. I'm white. My wife is asian. If only my children are on that planet, then there would be no children of any other color on it. It would be a planet full of incest. My Adam and Eve would be brother and sister. That's gross regardless of the excuses we give to that possibility for our first parents, but I don't believe they were brother and sister. I believe they were born of completely different sets of parents who were not God the Father and his wife. I also don't believe that God made them out of dirt, just in case anyone here doesn't get it that I didn't buy into that scheme either.

I believe life goes on there, just as it goes on here with the same kind of sociality. I certainly hope it does. I believe that we will always work as a society, as a council under Jesus Christ. There is no running off into the universe to do our own thing and build our own worlds. I'm not disappointed with that. I find it acceptable and doable. What I look forward to is finding myself in the midst of spirits and glory and seeing fit to institute laws whereby they might advance and become like me. That is what God did that we can do. That is the essence of godhood.

 

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6 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I don't know.
I could be wrong,

^^^^ Why then disseminate such ideas?
You are critical of

6 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

the nonsense being taught in the church today...

yet, here you are with your own nonsense. "Shame on them but not shame on me?"

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5 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I frequently face ridicule for the childish view that our church as that we will be Gods. And don't get me wrong, I believe we will be, but the idea that we will ever do what God did (it baffles me that the present and future tense would be in question here, but anyway) simply cannot be. So, first expectation shot down. We're not going to do everything that God did. Never will happen in an eternity. We not going to make planets and put our own spirit children on them and be like God the Father over those planets. That is never going to happen, noting any eternity. There's another expectation shot down. The disappointment is rising. Our doctrine teaches simply this, that we will be gods because we will continue to increase and this increase comes solely through continuing the seeds, not in knowledge or power, but in children. I think it is very important to know and understand how that works and in what it will mean to us and for them. Will we create worlds without end? Probably. Will we put our own children on them? I hope not. I mean, consider this. I'm white. My wife is asian. If only my children are on that planet, then there would be no children of any other color on it. It would be a planet full of incest. My Adam and Eve would be brother and sister. That's gross regardless of the excuses we give to that possibility for our first parents, but I don't believe they were brother and sister. I believe they were born of completely different sets of parents who were not God the Father and his wife. I also don't believe that God made them out of dirt, just in case anyone here doesn't get it that I didn't buy into that scheme either.

 

Where has it been said by any prophet past or present that we must do everything God did in order to be like him? It doesn't. You give your opinion as proof that it is so and then use your completely unsubstantiated view as basis for everything else. That's a very poor way of arriving at possible truth and understanding. Now I have no problem with people having opinions on things, especially where there is no firmly established doctrine but if you want to have a discussion on the issue it is unproductive and unfair to establish your opinions as fact and expect everyone else to make their case in opposition to yours using your rules. I'm not so sure you have remained objective in all this. 

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7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Time is rolling on and I think it's time that we consider the essential framework of the scriptures to better understand it. I'm not making this up from non-existing material.

The scriptures cover a few principles: 1. Agency expands with correct choices, and this expansion qualifies us to advance into new estates while the reduction or stagnation from poor choices condemn us (e.g. devil and his angels, lesser degrees of glory). 2. Exalted parents have gender and sexual attributes ("seed"). 3. Time is measured according to our estate and reckoning, so a "long time" in our experience would be a very "short time" in other estates (in this case, exaltation). Obviously we do not fully know what we have not yet experienced, or remember what is behind the veil, so the mechanics of previous and future estates are a bit beyond us right now.

7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I haven't met a woman yet who found the reckoning and number of 100's of billions of offspring regardless of how long it takes to produce that many children is relevant. None of them are willing to submit to such barbarism. It's not very practical to expect that any single woman is going to produce that many children for just one planet and then do it again and again for worlds without end. 

It's far more practical to extend the family just like we do it here and every woman can participate as they choose by having the number of children they want or having none if they so choose. The ability to have children does not mean that we must have children. My question might have been better understood if I had asked, do you think that our mother in heaven produced the 100 billion children that were born on this earth? How many 100's of billions of children do you think she is still producing?

The relevance is that it is not practical that a single being would produce or be the mother of that many offspring, personally, or even sharing the load (pun intended) with several other sister wives.

What isn't relevant is the social, physical and spiritual differences between a mortal soul and an exalted soul - as far as how many children a single woman might be expected to produce through out the eternities.

You agree with me that the number and reckoning are not relevant, but that they are relative in that different women have different perspectives on this.

As to Heavenly Mother(s)’s perspective(s), I do not know. I have found that the practicality of the Gospel and the principles of godliness very often come across as contradictory or counterintuitive, but less so the more we live by them.

I find that gospel speculation is typically rooted in expectations for the world outside of us and does not involve much introspection. On the other hand, assumptions or working models are typically rooted in kind of person we are, the way we live, etc. Our personal experience is a component of both, and out of that some people prefer speculation and others prefer working models to inform their understanding of the next life.

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13 hours ago, CV75 said:

The scriptures cover a few principles: 1. Agency expands with correct choices, and this expansion qualifies us to advance into new estates while the reduction or stagnation from poor choices condemn us (e.g. devil and his angels, lesser degrees of glory).

Agreed. What has this got to do with the topic? And, what scripture are you quoting that principle from? I'm not sure what you mean by agency. I don't know what other "new estates" you think we might advance to. IMO, the only thing that damns us is being single and choosing not to follow Christ. I believe that so long as this earth stands and has mortals on it, we will have the opportunity to do both. Once this earth has been celestialized, those options will be off the table.

 

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

2. Exalted parents have gender and sexual attributes ("seed").

They do. I don't believe they use sex to produce spirits anymore than mortals do.

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

3. Time is measured according to our estate and reckoning, so a "long time" in our experience would be a very "short time" in other estates (in this case, exaltation).

Because the reckoning of time varies, it is irrelevant to this discussion. Except if you think that we can travel back in time. I believe that time is always moving forward. There is no such thing as time travel, except in our minds and in that state, it is only wishful thinking. But time is irrelevant to producing children. I don't care how much time one might give a person, no one wants to give birth to 100s of billions of babies. We love them yes, but there is a much better way to make a family and God has shown us how.

 

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

Obviously we do not fully know what we have not yet experienced, or remember what is behind the veil, so the mechanics of previous and future estates are a bit beyond us right now.

Then I guess we shouldn't teach anything about either. Sadly, I guess... We do and I don't think it so far beyond us that we won't be able to grasp the idea of having children. We are very practiced at doing it. Having children is not a mystery.

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13 hours ago, CV75 said:

You agree with me that the number and reckoning are not relevant, but that they are relative in that different women have different perspectives on this.

No. I disagree with you. It is very relevant and I haven't found a single woman who is willing to be a baby factory. There may be some, of course, there will be some but a few who are willing doesn't make it any more relevant.

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

As to Heavenly Mother(s)’s perspective(s), I do not know. I have found that the practicality of the Gospel and the principles of godliness very often come across as contradictory or counterintuitive, but less so the more we live by them.

Well, I don't see how that is going to become any less counterintuitive.

 

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

I find that gospel speculation is typically rooted in expectations for the world outside of us and does not involve much introspection. On the other hand, assumptions or working models are typically rooted in kind of person we are, the way we live, etc. Our personal experience is a component of both, and out of that some people prefer speculation and others prefer working models to inform their understanding of the next life.

I don't know what kind of person you think I am or what way you think I live but I think such statements about people who want to connect the dots have every right to. I'm tired of sitting in Sunday School classes where someone will say, we'll be the gods of our own planets and put our spirit children there. Everyone in the room nods their head like bobblehead figurines and no one blinks an eye. If that's the kind of mortal life you want to live, then I'm okay with that. It's not the kind of life I want to live and I believe there are a lot of youth who won't buy into such inane ideas. That's not what's going to happen. They know it and, at least, I know it. One day you'll get asked the question and just like the ignorant protestants and Catholics, you'll have to say, don't question your faith. Just believe and we'll all know after we die (of course, then it's too late to do anything about it).

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14 hours ago, laronius said:

Where has it been said by any prophet past or present that we must do everything God did in order to be like him? It doesn't. You give your opinion as proof that it is so and then use your completely unsubstantiated view as basis for everything else.

Nowhere. I never said that any prophet past or present ever said any such thing nor am I arguing that that is what we must do to be like him. In fact, I'm arguing the opposite. I'm arguing the prevailing belief is that we will be just like him and do everything that he did. That is what many members of the church think. They believe that to be gods we must be God. But our scriptures teach us that simply being all-knowing and all-powerful does not make God, God. Our scriptures tell us exactly what will make us gods. And from those scriptures, which I have posted in this thread, I have offered my "substantiated" opinion and did so in the form of a question to invite discussion, not lectures based on an opinion about me that is unsubstantiated.

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