romans8

The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

Recommended Posts

On 10/25/2020 at 12:23 PM, Traveler said:

How can a honest and just G-d punish Jesus for our transgressions?  Now is it justice, truth and honesty for Jesus to take our place?

 

The Traveler

I was looking at Isaiah 53:4-6 to support my view.

"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten 
of God
, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: 
the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep 
have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the 
iniquity of us all
".

Jesus was smitten of God, taking our place. That is mercy and love to satisfy the demands of justice.

Do you believe God punishes you for transgressions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, romans8 said:

I was looking at Isaiah 53:4-6 to support my view.

"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten 
of God
, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: 
the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep 
have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the 
iniquity of us all
".

Jesus was smitten of God, taking our place. That is mercy and love to satisfy the demands of justice.

Do you believe God punishes you for transgressions?

I would clarify something.  I do believe that Jesus bore our griefs and has redeemed our sins.  But I also believe that the reason that it was able to happen is missing from the enlightenment and understanding a great many Christians - that do not care to know of such things.  Jesus said that we must knock, seek and ask for understanding.  I have pondered the demands of justice and sought to understand the truths of justice and mercy.  I believe I have discovered divine principles that have opened my eyes somewhat but I am not sure I have a complete understanding.  However, it does appear to me that few seek to know and understand justice and mercy beyond their individual selfishness thinking of their healing, their happiness, their salvation and so on.  I do not believe such thinking brings us closer to understanding G-d and his works.

As for G-d punishing transgressions - I have a major problem with the concept that G-d delights in making anyone miserable or in their suffering.  I do believe that there is a personality that delights in such things but that entity is not the G-d I worship.  If others desire to worship a punisher that delights in misery and suffering that is their choice but I do not intend to be any part of that.  I believe that there are consequences contingent on choices independent of G-d.  I believe he warns us, both through intelligence and spiritual enlightening of foolish and evil choices that bring about misery and suffering independent of G-d's love and caring.  And even though I believe Jesus has suffered and redeemed all sin (for reasons under just law); I believe it is quite possible that we can remain so attached to our transgressions that we will forever suffer and remain miserable- but our misery and suffering is our choice alone and I believe it to be wrong to blame G-d; even to the least amount or degree.  I am very sorrowful that so many delight in thinking G-d is a punisher and the bringer of misery and suffering.

It is my honest assessment that most Christians in their selfish effort to mitigate their sins draw wrong conclusions concerning justice, sacrifice and mercy.  In essence they do not seem to understand or appreciate the great risk to G-d's person in allowing us our freedoms and agency.  And again to be honest - it does not appear to me that many even care because they think only of themselves concerning such things.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, romans8 said:

Thank you Laronius. 

To prevent members from misinterpreting, are there teachings by leaders which clarify the punishments upon Adam 
and Eve in the episode of the Fall?

Matteo

I guess anything they teach is towards that end but that doesn't mean that they teach everything there is to know on a given subject. Rather they focus on the core tenants of our faith though not necessarily covering every detail and leave much for us to seek for by using what God has already given us, namely the scriptures and the Holy Ghost. Learning how to receive personal revelation is one of the most important tasks we face in this life and God will not rob us of that experience by revealing everything through his chosen servants. This is why you will hear us speak of doctrines that aren't official and yet accepted by many as true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/31/2020 at 9:08 AM, romans8 said:

Sorry to have misquoted you.  That was not my intention.   Based on the definition of punishment
that I mentioned earlier, which parts of my list did you agree or disagree with?

Matteo

I've answered that question.  But I believe you missed it because you misquoted me.  To find the answer, start by quoting me correctly and really think about the implications of the differences between my statement and your misquote.  It is in that difference that you should find the answer to your question.  No one likes repeating themselves.

Edited by Carborendum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/31/2020 at 1:21 PM, Traveler said:

As for G-d punishing transgressions - I have a major problem with the concept that G-d delights in making anyone miserable or in their suffering.  I do believe that there is a personality that delights in such things but that entity is not the G-d I worship.  If others desire to worship a punisher that delights in misery and suffering that is their choice but I do not intend to be any part of that.  I believe that there are consequences contingent on choices independent of G-d.  I believe he warns us, both through intelligence and spiritual enlightening of foolish and evil choices that bring about misery and suffering independent of G-d's love and caring.  And even though I believe Jesus has suffered and redeemed all sin (for reasons under just law); I believe it is quite possible that we can remain so attached to our transgressions that we will forever suffer and remain miserable- but our misery and suffering is our choice alone and I believe it to be wrong to blame G-d; even to the least amount or degree.  I am very sorrowful that so many delight in thinking G-d is a punisher and the bringer of misery and suffering.

I am not sure where you are getting that incorrect concept from.  God does not delight in making people 
suffer or making them miserable.   I am not aware of anyone who delights when God punishes people. 
Despite the many biblical passages which refer to God punishing people for their sins, we also find it
in the Book of Mormon. I will give just two examples.

2 Nephi 23:11 - "And I will punish the world for evil, and the wicked for their iniquity".

Mosiah 2:33 - "For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if 
he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own 
soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God 
contrary to his own knowledge".

Then we have the Second Article of Faith - "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, 
and not for Adam's transgression
".

Of these 3 references, I see God is the punisher.  What is your opinion?

Matteo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, romans8 said:

I am not sure where you are getting that incorrect concept from.  God does not delight in making people 
suffer or making them miserable.   I am not aware of anyone who delights when God punishes people. 
Despite the many biblical passages which refer to God punishing people for their sins, we also find it
in the Book of Mormon. I will give just two examples.

2 Nephi 23:11 - "And I will punish the world for evil, and the wicked for their iniquity".

Mosiah 2:33 - "For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if 
he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own 
soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God 
contrary to his own knowledge".

Then we have the Second Article of Faith - "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, 
and not for Adam's transgression
".

Of these 3 references, I see God is the punisher.  What is your opinion?

Matteo

Go back and read the first paragraph of Traveler’s post. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, romans8 said:

I am not sure where you are getting that incorrect concept from.  God does not delight in making people 
suffer or making them miserable.   I am not aware of anyone who delights when God punishes people. 
Despite the many biblical passages which refer to God punishing people for their sins, we also find it
in the Book of Mormon. I will give just two examples.

2 Nephi 23:11 - "And I will punish the world for evil, and the wicked for their iniquity".

Mosiah 2:33 - "For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if 
he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own 
soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God 
contrary to his own knowledge".

Then we have the Second Article of Faith - "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, 
and not for Adam's transgression
".

Of these 3 references, I see God is the punisher.  What is your opinion?

Matteo

I don’t know that I’d go so far as to suggest that God *never* imposes a deliberate punishment.  I do agree with what I think is Traveler’s broader point:  that often, what we would call “punishment” is less a deliberate action by God, and more of a situation where He just sits back and lets us deal with the natural consequences of our own actions.

But I think that if/when God goes out of His way to “punish” someone, there’s a purpose for it.  I don’t ground my kid because the little maggot broke my stuff and so he deserves to be grounded; I ground my kid because I want him to be more careful in the future and this is how I teach him to reconsider the actions that led him to this state.

This is one reason I’m particularly fond of LDS soteriology in comparison with (what I understand to be) that of mainline Christianity:  If God goes out of His way to make Hell more unpleasant than any collection of rotten people who know God’s full power and refused to accept it must necessarily be (i.e. He adds fire and brimstone to the mix, subjects them to the power of a torturous being created by Himself and who He refuses to rein in, etc), then it strikes me that it must be either because a) Hell has (or at least, can have) an end if its inhabitants will only learn their lessons; or b) God is a sadist who gets His kicks and giggles by watching people suffer even more than whatever might be absolutely necessary.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/3/2020 at 10:34 AM, romans8 said:

When I study further, it appears the term 'Fall' also refers to the actual changes that occured 
upon Adam & Eve.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng

The changes that came upon Adam and Eve because they ate the fruit are called the Fall.
(Gospel Principles, chapter 6, )

When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. In this state, 
"they would have had no children” (2 Nephi 2:23). There was no death. They had physical life 
because their spirits were housed in physical bodies made from the dust of the earth (see 
Moses 6:59; Abraham 5:7). They had spiritual life because they were in the presence of God. 
They had not yet made a choice between good and evil.

I need clarification on this 'not yet' part. What was their first choice between good and evil 
from God's perspective?


In the Adam and Eve’s Separation from God section, their choice is said to have had these 
effects:

- they were expelled from the Garden of Eden.
- they became mortal.
- they and their children would experience sickness, pain, and physical death.
- they and their children suffered spiritual death (the could not walk and talk face to face 
  with God).

  
Another article of the church
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/1973/02/our-first-parents?lang=eng

says

- Adam and Eve were happy in their beautiful home in the Garden of Eden, for they had been 
given everything they could want for food and for pleasure. They knew nothing of evil, for 
their world was all good.
- Often in the cool of early evening the Lord would walk and talk with them, and their happiness 
was complete.  He told them that everything had been made for them to enjoy except one tree-
the tree of knowledge of good and evil - and that they should neither touch nor eat the fruit 
of that tree, for if they did, they would be punished. Adam promised that they would not 
disobey this commandment.

Is there any reason why Gospel Principles refers to them as effects instead of punishments?


Then another section mentions Great Blessings Resulted from the Transgression.  It says 
they would:

- get physical bodies.
- have the right to choose between good and evil.
- have the opportunity to gain eternal life.
- have children.
- know good and evil.
- know the joy of redemption.
- know that eternal life comes from God to all the obedient.

Why is a physical body viewed as a great blessing that resulted from a transgression?
Didn't Adam already have an immortal, physical body, made from the earth?   

Thank you,

Matteo

If the USA comes out with Time Travel Technology within a few years.....

I think that you and Rabbi Nachman of Breslov might get along quite well..... .assuming that you go back into the eighteenth century to meet him.....

(or was it nineteenth century)???

 

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nachman_of_Breslov

 

Quote

 

This is a great principal in Avodas Hashem – That a person has to begin everyday anew. (LM 261)

When a person falls from his level he should know that it’s heaven-sent, because going down is needed in order to go up, therefore he fell, in order that he arouses himself more to come close to Hashem. Advice for him - Begin anew to enter into service of Hashem as if you have never yet even begun (Ibid)

Whenever a person rises from one level to the next, it necessitates that he first has a descent before the ascent. Because the purpose of any descent is always in order to ascend. (LM 22)

There is a lot to talk about here (in the above topic). Because each person who fell to the place where he fell thinks that these words weren’t spoken for him, for he imagines that these ideas are only for great people who are always climbing from one level to the next. But truthfully, you should know and believe, that all these words were also said concerning the smallest of the small and the worst of the worst, for Hashem is forever good to all. (Ibid as quoted in LE)

It is a great thing for a person to still have an evil inclination because then he is able to serve Hashem with the evil inclination itself. That is, to take all of the fire in his heart and channel it towards service of Hashem. For example, to pray with fiery passion of the heart, etc. For, if there is no evil inclination in a person his service cannot be complete. (LM2 49)

A person must know that “Gods glory fills the entire world” (Isiah 6), and “There is no place void of Him” (Tikunei Zohar), and “He fills all worlds and surrounds all worlds” (Zohar)… even in the most defiled places there is godliness, for He gives life to everything as it says, “And you give life to everything” (Nechemia 9). So even if a person is stuck in the lowest of places he cannot excuse himself and say “I cannot serve Hashem here because of all the thickness and materialism that attacks me always,” for even there you can find Him and cling to Him and do complete teshuva, “For it is not far from you” (devarim 30), only that in this place there are many garments.”(LM 33)

This is the Tikun Haklali, the complete fixing. Whoever destroys his sexual impulse, it will be easy for him to get rid of his other evil desires. For all other impulses stem from this one. (LM 36)

 

 

Edited by DennisTate
add link plus quotations....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/7/2020 at 7:51 AM, romans8 said:

I am not sure where you are getting that incorrect concept from.  God does not delight in making people 
suffer or making them miserable.   I am not aware of anyone who delights when God punishes people. 
Despite the many biblical passages which refer to God punishing people for their sins, we also find it
in the Book of Mormon. I will give just two examples.

2 Nephi 23:11 - "And I will punish the world for evil, and the wicked for their iniquity".

Mosiah 2:33 - "For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if 
he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own 
soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God 
contrary to his own knowledge".

Then we have the Second Article of Faith - "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, 
and not for Adam's transgression
".

Of these 3 references, I see God is the punisher.  What is your opinion?

Matteo

Greetings - sorry for the delay.  I will give my opinion.   However, there are several issues that your question raises.  But before I begin - I am glad to share my personal opinions but there are are a few caveats that accompany my opinion.  My opinion is subject to change - In fact, I am looking for opportunities to change my opinions if my opinion is not "TRUE".  My opinions are based on many factors and for me to change my opinion the factors need addressing.  There is another concern in this discussion.  Neither you nor @Jonah seem to be very excited to share your opinions and answer direct question.  This causes me to doubt the sincerity of your references and questions to my opinion.  Never-the-less I am glad to explain my position in great detail.

As I have stated and others have seemed to support - I do not believe G-d is the cause of suffering or punishment.  I cannot say why some scripture seems to support the notion that G-d causes punishments that result in sorrow and misery.   I will make an comparison to light and darkness.  In this example you can think of darkness as punishment and the mercy of G-d, you can think of as light.  If we choose to turn away and reject G-d's light - then his mercy has no place in us and we will dwell in darkness - meaning that we will suffer sorrow and misery.  The point I want to make is that I do not believe that G-d withholds his mercy of turn off his light.  What I believe happens is that we choose to reject it and that rejection results in sorrow and misery.

I believe the mercy of G-d is extended to all - without any exception.  I do not think he withdraws his mercy but that we reject it.  The choice is ours - not G-d's.  I want to make clear the nature of the G-d that I worship.

But lets take another look at the concept that G-d is the cause of punishment and therefore the only valid cause of suffering and misery.  Let us consider the worse possible sin that we do to others.  Perhaps it is murder?  Is there a greater?  Lets say someone murders an innocent child.  So does not such an innocent child suffer but for a moment? And then through the mercy of G-d is raised in the resurrection to glory?  How long then, must a person suffer and be miserable for that murder?  100 years, 1,000,000 years, billions or trillions of years?  Must they suffer for all eternity - for ever and ever?  Is that justice?  So I ask you - why does anyone think that?  Why does someone believe that after some many many years of misery and suffering that a poor sinner would beg and plead with G-d for forgiveness and mercy that G-d would deny such  and yet would forgive you all your sins and you having suffered nothing?

Thus it is my opinion that the great sin is not a deed of evil that we transgress against others but our choice to turn forever away from G-d's mercy.  Though turning from G-d's mercy inspires us to transgress against others and vice versa - thus the two are most often linked.  But the important notion is that in reality we are the cause of our misery and suffering for the sins we commit by rejecting or turning away from G-d's mercy.  It is also interesting to me that the primary meaning of repentance is a change of heart and mind - that I believe is turning away from sin (including suffering and misery) to the light (mercy) of G-d.

If my opinion is not clear - you are welcome to ask any question or any number of questions as you wish.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/7/2020 at 7:51 AM, romans8 said:

I am not sure where you are getting that incorrect concept from.  God does not delight in making people 
suffer or making them miserable.   I am not aware of anyone who delights when God punishes people. 
Despite the many biblical passages which refer to God punishing people for their sins, we also find it
in the Book of Mormon. I will give just two examples.

2 Nephi 23:11 - "And I will punish the world for evil, and the wicked for their iniquity".

Mosiah 2:33 - "For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if 
he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own 
soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God 
contrary to his own knowledge".

Then we have the Second Article of Faith - "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, 
and not for Adam's transgression
".

Of these 3 references, I see God is the punisher.  What is your opinion?

Matteo

I utilized this example a few days ago when talking to one of my kids about transgression, sins, and consequences regarding Adam and Eve.  We do not believe Adam and Eve knew Good and Evil before they partook of the fruit of Good and Evil.  They were in ignorance, and as they were ignorant, they could not sin.  This still could not save them from the consequences of their choices in some ways.  Thus we call their partaking the fruit as a Transgression.

The Lord in his power may have been able to restore them and all other things, but did not intervene into the consequences.

We do not have the power of the Lord, but can see similar things with little children.  An extreme example (which I hope never happens to anyone or their children) is if I tell a young child (let's say around 3 years of age) not to touch a burner.  It is hot and I try to tell that child that they should not touch it under any circumstances or they could be hurt severely.  Despite my warnings and pleadings, they touch the burner and are burned.  They are burned and are injured.  They made the choice.  They are too young to really be held accountable (and in fact, if the parent was negligent in watching the child, in some jurisdictions of the world, the parent might have some consequences themselves) but they will still suffer the consequences of their choice.

In my opinion, the Lord operates in a similar manner.  There are consequences to our choices.  He will plead for us and on our behalf, he will try to save us from ourselves, but at some point we become adults and consider ourselves responsible for our actions.  If we CHOOSE to fight against the atonement and the Lord, he is not going to force us to accept his atonement and our salvation.  If we truly want to choose a different path than him, he will allow us to do so.  This gives us our free agency to choose, but with that agency comes a degree of consequence. 

There is also a great entity of evil out there that hates each and everyone of us.  It cannot wait for us to reject the protection of the Lord so that they can enact bad things upon us. 

When we suffer for these choices, one could say that this is a punishment from the Lord.  In truth, it could be interpreted as being punished as the Lord has withdrawn his protection over us to a small degree.  We've rejected his protection in some instances, and as such, are subject to the whims of his enemy.  This enemy WANTS us to suffer, and as such does terrible things.  The punishment could be seen as the Lord not protecting us, but as we have rejected his protection and subjected ourselves to the whims of darkness,  one could also see it as the consequences of our choices.

Luckily, the Lord went through the atonement and if we repent and follow him, we can still be saved and preserved from his (and our) enemy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/9/2020 at 9:57 PM, Traveler said:

But lets take another look at the concept that G-d is the cause of punishment and therefore the only valid cause of suffering and misery.  Let us consider the worse possible sin that we do to others.  Perhaps it is murder?  Is there a greater?  Lets say someone murders an innocent child.  So does not such an innocent child suffer but for a moment? And then through the mercy of G-d is raised in the resurrection to glory?  How long then, must a person suffer and be miserable for that murder?  100 years, 1,000,000 years, billions or trillions of years?  Must they suffer for all eternity - for ever and ever?  Is that justice?  So I ask you - why does anyone think that?  Why does someone believe that after some many many years of misery and suffering that a poor sinner would beg and plead with G-d for forgiveness and mercy that G-d would deny such  and yet would forgive you all your sins and you having suffered nothing?

I hope with you that God does not cause someone to endure endless misery for those who do not repent and
change their ways but what I read in this church manual has me worried.


https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng

The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed.

“God has decreed that all who will not obey His voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the 
damnation of hell? To go with that society who have not obeyed His commands. … I know that all men will 
be damned if they do not come in the way which He hath opened, and this is the way marked out by the word 
of the Lord."

"The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, is to know that 
they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves, and they are 
their own accusers."

"There is no pain so awful as that of suspense. This is the punishment of the wicked; their doubt, anxiety 
and suspense cause weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth."

"A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns 
with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as 
exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man. …

"  Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings, and some shall 
rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and 
brimstone."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, romans8 said:

I hope with you that God does not cause someone to endure endless misery for those who do not repent and
change their ways but what I read in this church manual has me worried.


https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng

The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed.

“God has decreed that all who will not obey His voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the 
damnation of hell?
To go with that society who have not obeyed His commands. … I know that all men will 
be damned
if they do not come in the way which He hath opened, and this is the way marked out by the word 
of the Lord."

"The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, is to know that 
they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves,
and they are 
their own accusers
."

"There is no pain so awful as that of suspense. This is the punishment of the wicked; their doubt, anxiety 
and suspense cause weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth."

"A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns 
with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as 
exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man. …

"  Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings, and some shall 
rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and 
brimstone."

It is an interesting quote, but as per the quote, it implies (whether one agrees or not, some would say this is more of the opinion rather than specifically scriptural) that those who suffer are there due to their own accusations and their own tormentations and condemnations.  That the individual is the one who is the one who will accuse and thus condemn themselves and in the end are their own tormentor because they have decided to take a path different than the one the Lord set up for them to follow.

There are several ways to interpret that I suppose.

One could be as the Lord said in John 14:6

Quote

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
 

Or Matthew 7:13-14

Quote

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

He has created a trail or path for people to follow, but it is their choice which path to follow. 

For instance, if you were hiking (or biking) in the forest along the trails blazoned there and you came upon a choice of two trails.  You can either choose the right one or the left one.  If you choose the right one it leads back to home and comforts as it was led by the Ranger in charge of the forest and kept up by him to lead people on a path that will lead them back to the safety of home.  On the left is an unknown trail, but you see many have followed it.  If you follow the left trail, it is of your own choosing, but it probably is not going to lead you back to the safety of home. 

In that same light, the Lord (one interpretation I have of the passage you put above, taking it at face value without further context beyond what you posted) has also created a trail or path that we can follow.  It will lead us back to him.  The other path leads away from him and if we choose to follow it, it could lead to dark places where we may eventually choose even worse paths.  It could be that he will follow us eventually and try to convince us to come back, or if we are injured enough he might even carry us to safety (we can hope), but there will be some that will fight against that and tell him to go away.  That is their choice, but the results of that choice also could mean they are left injured and hurt on the trail after they refuse to let him help them to salvation, or to follow the path he created for us in the first place.  

I see the passage (as I said, one interpretation, there may be others) as saying that the choice is actually ours, which given many Christian liturgies regarding judgement and the results afterwards can be a rather odd idea in relation to the standard ideas concerning Heaven or Hell and how one gets there.

Edited by JohnsonJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

I see the passage (as I said, one interpretation, there may be others) as saying that the choice is actually ours, which given many Christian liturgies regarding judgement and the results afterwards can be a rather odd idea in relation to the standard ideas concerning Heaven or Hell and how one gets there.

I agree. The choice is ultimately ours even though I never met someone who would admit that he
chose to go there. My brother always compares himself to the vilest of sinners as proof that he
does not deserve to go where God is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@romans8  As we consider and try to understand things beyond the event horizon of death there are obvious problems.  One of the reasons I started the thread "Who is G-d that I should know Him" was to create a logical baseline from which we can theatrically discern valid from invalid interpretations and impressions of G-d's nature.  For me personally, I have difficulty holding reverence and respect for a G-d or understanding of G-d that are full of inconsistencies.  I see inconsistencies as being the essence of lies and injustices.   May I present a possible inconsistency?

We are told in scripture to "love our enemies" and "do good to those that despitefully use us".  To me it is a great and significant inconsistency to believe that G-d would demand this of us mere mortals before we are "worthy" to be in His presents when he is a G-d a vengeance that punishes his enemies and is the root cause to inflict suffering and misery upon those that despitefully use Him. (which is what appears to be the doctrine of Traditional Christians - like @Jonah and others I have encountered).  I am not sure where you stand on such matters but my impression is that your background is in Traditional Christianity but that you are exploring more consistent possibilities.  

You have mentioned that your brother thinks of himself as "better" than the vilest of sinners.  This is really bad logic - anything vile (even among the vilest of sinners) can justify their bad choices against a worse choice.  For example a vile parent can justify their outburst of anger and vile punishments towards small children by thinking that their actions are not as bad as feeding those children to crocodiles.   I think, from my experience with those of vile criminal nature, that they excuse their transgressions towards intelligence and enlightenment as trying their "best" or as something "justifiable" under the circumstances.

Obviously this is not the thinking of a Saint of G-d.  What we all should be doing (including your brother) is comparing ourselves to the Saints of G-d.  Especially if we think ourselves to be a disciple of Christ, a fellow citizen with the Saints and of the household of G-d.  The term disciple comes from the same root meaning as discipline.  I would point out that nothing of value has ever been achieved or accomplished without discipline.

In my previous life when I was young - I thought myself a great skier and cyclists.  I competed in both sports with some success.  But I will tell you and anyone paying attention to living life - that there is nothing worse than attempting to achieve something worth while - like winning a race or at least to podium but to fail to achieve because you failed (even so ever  slightly) to train as diligently as you should and could have.  And yet there is nothing so satisfying as training and then exceeding your own and other's expectations.   It is my speculation that when Pagan doctrines turned early (Traditional) Christians away from Christ - that part of that apostasy inspired early church leaders to teach that G-d punishes sinners in order to justify the church use of harsh punitive measures towards non-Christians and heretics. 

So I ask anyone that believes in Christ - is there anything more important than training (discipline or discipleship) to become a Christian with Christ like nature and thus, carry with us His name with the proper dignity and discipline such disserves?  And for such becoming so distracted and in love with anything of lessor value - that one would knowingly so sacrifice the atonement of Christ and G-d's mercy for such lessor things?  I believe that justice is the consequence of choice - that regardless of G-d's love and mercy; no one can live up to higher laws to which they refuse to live and will not abide. 

 

The Traveler 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/14/2020 at 2:30 PM, Traveler said:

You have mentioned that your brother thinks of himself as "better" than the vilest of sinners.  This is really bad logic - anything vile (even among the vilest of sinners) can justify their bad choices against a worse choice

I know, but that is what he believes. I am praying for him.
 

Quote

It is my speculation that when Pagan doctrines turned early (Traditional) Christians away from Christ - that part of 
that apostasy inspired early church leaders to teach that G-d punishes sinners in order to justify the church use of 
harsh punitive measures towards non-Christians and heretics.

The church should not use harsh punitive measures towards non-Christians and heretics. This should be left 
to the Law. 

If we continue to act in sinful ways and do not repent, God disciplines (punishes) us.  Hebrews 12:7-11 
says, "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father 
chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not 
sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we 
not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?  For they verily for a few days 
chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth 
the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby
".
 

Quote

So I ask anyone that believes in Christ - is there anything more important than training (discipline or discipleship) 
to become a Christian with Christ like nature and thus, carry with us His name with the proper dignity and discipline 
such disserves?  And for such becoming so distracted and in love with anything of lessor value - that one would knowingly 
so sacrifice the atonement of Christ and G-d's mercy for such lessor things?

That makes sense.
 

Quote

I believe that justice is 
the consequence of choice - that regardless of G-d's love and mercy; no one can live up to higher laws to which they 
refuse to live and will not abide.

What do you believe were the first events recorded in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon which showed the justice 
of God in the consequence of a person making a bad choice?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/21/2020 at 7:31 AM, romans8 said:

I know, but that is what he believes. I am praying for him.
 

The church should not use harsh punitive measures towards non-Christians and heretics. This should be left 
to the Law. 

If we continue to act in sinful ways and do not repent, God disciplines (punishes) us.  Hebrews 12:7-11 
says, "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father 
chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not 
sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we 
not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?  For they verily for a few days 
chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth 
the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby
".
 

That makes sense.
 

What do you believe were the first events recorded in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon which showed the justice 
of God in the consequence of a person making a bad choice?

When Cain murdered Able.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Traveler said:
On 11/21/2020 at 6:31 AM, romans8 said:

What do you believe were the first events recorded in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon which showed the justice 
of God in the consequence of a person making a bad choice?

When Cain murdered Able.

Clearly, Adam and Eve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  14 hours ago, Traveler said:

When Cain murdered Able.

 

The Traveler

  13 hours ago, Vort said:

Clearly, Adam and Eve.

 

Perhaps not first in terms of when it was recorded but first in the timeline is the fall of Lucifer.

 

 

I agree with @laroniusthat the fall of Lucifer is the first example of divine justice.

 

However, I have a problem with the Eden epoch as generally understood (especially among Traditional Christians) as a display of justice.  Perhaps @Vort can explain or anyone????  If the fall was a demonstration of "Justice" - especially pure divine justice - How is it that every living thing on this planet suffers - not just or exclusively Adam and Even that according to the literal implications in scripture were the only beings that were involved or committed "THE TRANSGRESSION"????   By what sense of logic is this justice?

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, laronius said:

Perhaps not first in terms of when it was recorded but first in the timeline is the fall of Lucifer.

The question stipulated that the event be recorded in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Other than the oblique Isaiah phrasing about "how art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning" (which wasn't actually about Lucifer at all, but simply an allusion targeting the king of Babylon), I can't think of any clear Biblical reference establishing this. I grant that you're right as far as the "earliest recorded event" goes, but I maintain that our modern Bible doesn't actually record this event, just obliquely references it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now