'Despite All We Can Do' – 2 Nephi 25:23 in Literary and Rhetorical Context

[maklelan]

My Journal of Book of Mormon Studies article, "2 Nephi 25:23 in Literary and Rhetorical Context," is now digitally available on JSTOR:

 

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5406/jbookmormstud2.29.2020.0001

 

 

My paper demonstrates that "after all we can do" was a phrase commonly used by English-language writers discussing grace in the late-eighteenth and early-nineteenth centuries, and it always and only meant "despite all we can do."

 

If you don't have access, message me and I'll be happy to send you a PDF.

[Traveler]

On 10/3/2020 at 10:11 AM, maklelan said:

My Journal of Book of Mormon Studies article, "2 Nephi 25:23 in Literary and Rhetorical Context," is now digitally available on JSTOR:

 

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5406/jbookmormstud2.29.2020.0001

 

 

My paper demonstrates that "after all we can do" was a phrase commonly used by English-language writers discussing grace in the late-eighteenth and early-nineteenth centuries, and it always and only meant "despite all we can do."

 

If you don't have access, message me and I'll be happy to send you a PDF.

It appears that to read the article requires a fee.  I would love to read a PDF.  Do I need to  send you my email?

 

The Traveler

[maklelan]

On 10/14/2020 at 9:53 AM, Traveler said:

It appears that to read the article requires a fee.  I would love to read a PDF.  Do I need to  send you my email?

 

The Traveler

If you send me a private message with your email address I'll be happy to email the PDF to you. 

[Jonah]

On 10/3/2020 at 12:11 PM, maklelan said:

My paper demonstrates that "after all we can do" was a phrase commonly used by English-language writers discussing grace in the late-eighteenth and early-nineteenth centuries, and it always and only meant "despite all we can do."

Does the word "after" in the phrase "after all we can do"  have some aspect in it that changes the
meaning of the verse if someone substitutes the word "despite"?  That is, does "after" = "despite"
or does the change reflect a change in the meaning that Joseph intended when it was translated
that way?

[maklelan]

17 hours ago, Jonah said:

Does the word "after" in the phrase "after all we can do"  have some aspect in it that changes the
meaning of the verse if someone substitutes the word "despite"?  That is, does "after" = "despite"
or does the change reflect a change in the meaning that Joseph intended when it was translated
that way?

I would say they words aren't semantically identical, but the meaning really occurs at the phrasal level here, not the level of the word. In other words, the single word "after" does not suggest the exact same meaning on its own as it does embedded in this phrase. As a result, I don't think the precise sense of the word "after" can be isolated from the rest of the phrase. The two words are incidentally interchangeable in this phrase with pretty much the same meaning, but that's not how phrases always work. 

[Traveler]

It is obvious to me that there is something we can do, ought to do and must do to be saved.  If not then all would be saved by Christ and there would be nothing to discuss or for anyone of us to ever do.

 

The Traveler

[Jersey Boy]

On 11/9/2020 at 10:27 PM, Traveler said:

It is obvious to me that there is something we can do, ought to do and must do to be saved.  If not then all would be saved by Christ and there would be nothing to discuss or for anyone of us to ever do.

 

The Traveler

You’re missing Nephi’s central point. He’s saying that unless a man comes unto Christ and is reconciled unto to God by embracing and internalizing the transformative redemptive power offered to him through the atoning sacrifice, that man can never be saved no matter how hard he tries to live a life that will prove he is righteous. Growing in the grace and knowledge of God by faithfully and conscientiously living the Gospel of Christ does indeed bring positive spiritual growth toward ultimate exaltation, but only after first coming unto Christ in faith and being reconciled to God through the Savior’s atonement. Even the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will be required to bow the knee to God the Father and confess to him that Jesus is the Christ before they will be permitted to enter into that kingdom of post-resurrection glory.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (D&C 76)

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

Edited November 12, 2020 by Jersey Boy

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

You’re missing Nephi’s central point. He’s saying that unless a man comes unto Christ and is reconciled unto to God by embracing and internalizing the transformative redemptive power offered to him through the atoning sacrifice, that man can never be saved no matter how hard he tries to live a life that will prove he is righteous. Growing in the grace and knowledge of God by faithfully and conscientiously living the Gospel of Christ does indeed bring positive spiritual growth toward ultimate exaltation, but only after first coming unto Christ in faith and being reconciled to God through the Savior’s atonement. Even the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will be required to bow the knee to God the Father and confess to him that Jesus is the Christ before they will be permitted to enter into that kingdom of post-resurrection glory.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (D&C 76)

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

Why do you think I missed a point? - obviously, to both myself and Nephi there is something we can do.  There is, however, something you may find interesting.  The ancient meaning of righteous was to have a valid and binding covenant with G-d.  Which BTW - is also something we "can" do.  What I find interesting is that with rare exception, every religion I have encountered believes that there is something we can and must do to become divinely enlightened.  This includes even those that think they believe that by grace alone we are saved.  And so I find the discussion somewhat ironic.  

 

The Traveler

[JohnsonJones]

Just so we understand more of the context, which may be missing from some analysis here...

Quote

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.

 

All we can do is to believe in Christ and deny him not and bow down before him and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul.

But, as we are, we are saved by his grace, not our works, for today, much as it was yesterday, the law is dead in it's power to save.  It is the Lord who saves us and by his choice and delineation are we chosen to be saved.  However, he has given us commandments which are necessary for us to follow, for if we would actually worship him, we will do as he says.

and just so one understands, this is not too different from

Quote

“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

“This is the first and great commandment.

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by JohnsonJones

[laronius]

In the phrase "it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do" we often speak of the first and last parts but overlook the meaning of the middle part "we are saved." To connect the two points of grace and all we can do we must identify what it means to be saved. The whole purpose of grace is to enable us to do and to become better which when pursued unceasingly will result in our eventual doing and becoming like our Heavenly Father. Without the doing and becoming grace is a gift left unreceived. So while it is indeed true that we cannot save ourselves it is also true that we cannot be saved without total effort on our part. It is a principle also expressed in the Bible and Book of Mormon as "work out your salvation." 

[Jersey Boy]

On 11/12/2020 at 12:23 AM, Traveler said:

Why do you think I missed a point? - obviously, to both myself and Nephi there is something we can do.  There is, however, something you may find interesting.  The ancient meaning of righteous was to have a valid and binding covenant with G-d.  Which BTW - is also something we "can" do.  What I find interesting is that with rare exception, every religion I have encountered believes that there is something we can and must do to become divinely enlightened.  This includes even those that think they believe that by grace alone we are saved.  And so I find the discussion somewhat ironic.  

 

The Traveler

Nephi’s central point is unless a man comes unto Christ in living faith, and is reconciled to God the Father through the power of Christ’s infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice for sin, he cannot be be saved, no matter how hard he might strive to prove himself worthy of salvation by living a righteous life. Justification (forgiveness) and sanctification (spiritual strength, purity and holiness) can only be obtained through the redemptive power of Christ’s sacrifice. In the case of the Nephites, striving to keep the law of Moses with great diligence, persistence and exactness would not be enough to save any one of them because the only thing that could bring salvation is coming unto Christ and being reconciled to God the Father through his atonement.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jersey Boy

[Carborendum]

I disagree with the conclusion of the paper:

Scholarly works and exegesis certainly help us understand the scriptures better.  But they cannot override the revealed word and declarations from Apostles or other scriptural verses which address the same topic.

From the Bible Dictionary on "Grace":

Quote

...It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the Fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do”

What are our own "best efforts"?

Quote

“After all we can do” includes extending our best effort. It includes living his commandments.

“After all we can do” includes loving our fellow men and praying for those who regard us as their adversary. It means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, and giving “succor [to] those who stand in need of our succor” (Mosiah 4:16)—remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God’s children, we do unto him.

“After all we can do” means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated.

 -- Ezra Taft Benson, First Presidency Message, "Redemption Through Christ After All We Can Do."

What is the relationship between grace and works?

Quote

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

 -- Moroni 10:32

We can all agree that "all our best efforts" and all the ordinances in the world will never be sufficient to obtain Eternal Life without the Grace of God through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

The question is what is required to obtain that grace?

The sectarians believe that you need only make a mental decision to accept Christ as your Savior.  Then His grace is sufficient for you. Thomas Paine would have a problem with that.  They also say that "baptism" is "too much work" for such Grace to be "free".  I believe Naaman (and his servant) would have a problem with that.

We believe that a lifetime of dedication is required to keep us from becoming an "enemy to God." When He says "jump", we say "how high?"

The changing of "after" to "despite" changes the meaning to the point where we're where the sectarians are.  Why even bother with ordinances?  Why even bother with "obedience"?  Why bother with covenants?  Why bother even trying if it's all by Grace "despite" anything we do?  Re-wording that automatically brings up the notion "why bother?"

Literal meaning or not, reality of the details or not, the end result and conclusion must be that using "despite" discourages us from doing anything to obtain His mercy. It discourages us from even TRYING.  And the TRYING is what differentiates us from the "saved by grace" crowd.  Yes, we believe that all our works cannot save us. Yes, we believe it is through the Atoning blood of Jesus Christ that we are saved.  But our emphasis is on the continual EFFORT to endure to the end.

"After" does encourage us to put forth all we have to obtain that Grace.

"After" is the correct word.

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Nephi’s central point is unless a man comes unto Christ in living faith, and is reconciled to God the Father through the power of Christ’s infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice for sin, he cannot be be saved, no matter how hard he might strive to prove himself worthy of salvation by living a righteous life. Justification (forgiveness) and sanctification (spiritual strength, purity and holiness) can only be obtained through the redemptive power of Christ’s sacrifice. In the case of the Nephites, striving to keep the law of Moses with great diligence, persistence and exactness would not be enough to save any one of them because the only thing that could bring salvation is coming unto Christ and being reconciled to God the Father through his atonement.

Please do not think I am being critical for sake of argument but I find the following as a bit of a paradox:

Quote

Nephi’s central point is unless a man comes unto Christ in living faith, and is reconciled to God the Father through the power of Christ’s infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice for sin, he cannot be be saved

Question - Are you not outlining something that man can do (unless a man comes unto Christ in living faith, and is reconciled to God the Father) and must do, to to be saved?  

Next question - How can someone be "reconciled" to G-d without entering into covenant with G-d?  Note that I underlined both "comes" and "reconciled" above because these things we can do.  Do we agree that if someone does not do these things - they cannot be saved?  This would mean that there is something that man can and must do to be saved.

I believe the point Nephi is making is that without the Atonement of Christ that nothing else matters - but because of the Atonement of Christ we are able to enter into sacred covenant with G-d and that the two together (the Atonement of Christ and our being reconciled with G-d by and through covenant) not only are we saved from Death and Hell (sin) but there is an additional benefit in being loyal to divine covenant whereby we become joint heirs of exaltation with Jesus Christ.

 

The Traveler

[Jersey Boy]

On 11/13/2020 at 12:00 PM, Traveler said:

Please do not think I am being critical for sake of argument but I find the following as a bit of a paradox:

Question - Are you not outlining something that man can do (unless a man comes unto Christ in living faith, and is reconciled to God the Father) and must do, to to be saved?  

Next question - How can someone be "reconciled" to G-d without entering into covenant with G-d?  Note that I underlined both "comes" and "reconciled" above because these things we can do.  Do we agree that if someone does not do these things - they cannot be saved?  This would mean that there is something that man can and must do to be saved.

I believe the point Nephi is making is that without the Atonement of Christ that nothing else matters - but because of the Atonement of Christ we are able to enter into sacred covenant with G-d and that the two together (the Atonement of Christ and our being reconciled with G-d by and through covenant) not only are we saved from Death and Hell (sin) but there is an additional benefit in being loyal to divine covenant whereby we become joint heirs of exaltation with Jesus Christ.

 

The Traveler

It’s really very simple. Nephi is saying men must accept and embrace the fact that God has graciously done mighty things for the salvation of man that they are utterly incapable of providing to themselves. First, they must come unto Christ in faith as Lord and Savior, with the realization that without his atoning sacrifice they would inescapably be dragged down to the misery of hell and become angels to the devil forever. Next, they need to understand that in order to be saved they must be reconciled to God by receiving a remission of their sins through Christ’s atoning sacrifice, a gift of divine grace that they are utterly incapable of providing for themselves, for a man cannot atone for his own sins. While it’s true a man can suffer for his own sins and have his heart softened thereby, nevertheless he can never atone for his own sins, for only and infinite and eternal sacrifice of God, not man, can expiate sin.

So Nephi is saying that if a man wants to be saved he must realize that though he might wear out his life in a quest of attempting to prove to God and man that he is righteous and worthy of salvation, unless that man comes down in the depths of humility and accepts the great and gracious blessings of salvation God offers him that he cannot provide for himself (for only God can provide them) he cannot and will not be saved. In other words, the true path to salvation starts at the point when a man comprehends that it is only in and through the grace of God that he can be saved. After coming unto Christ in living faith, and being reconciled to God the Father through him, a man can strive to live the kind of holy life that doesn’t frustrate the continued outpouring of God’s salvative blessings, but in the end it’s still only divine grace, realized by faith, that has the power to save him.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Jersey Boy

[maklelan]

On 11/13/2020 at 5:31 AM, Carborendum said:

I disagree with the conclusion of the paper:

Scholarly works and exegesis certainly help us understand the scriptures better.  But they cannot override the revealed word and declarations from Apostles or other scriptural verses which address the same topic.

From the Bible Dictionary on "Grace":

What are our own "best efforts"?

What is the relationship between grace and works?

We can all agree that "all our best efforts" and all the ordinances in the world will never be sufficient to obtain Eternal Life without the Grace of God through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

The question is what is required to obtain that grace?

The sectarians believe that you need only make a mental decision to accept Christ as your Savior.  Then His grace is sufficient for you. Thomas Paine would have a problem with that.  They also say that "baptism" is "too much work" for such Grace to be "free".  I believe Naaman (and his servant) would have a problem with that.

We believe that a lifetime of dedication is required to keep us from becoming an "enemy to God." When He says "jump", we say "how high?"

The changing of "after" to "despite" changes the meaning to the point where we're where the sectarians are.  Why even bother with ordinances?  Why even bother with "obedience"?  Why bother with covenants?  Why bother even trying if it's all by Grace "despite" anything we do?  Re-wording that automatically brings up the notion "why bother?"

Literal meaning or not, reality of the details or not, the end result and conclusion must be that using "despite" discourages us from doing anything to obtain His mercy. It discourages us from even TRYING.  And the TRYING is what differentiates us from the "saved by grace" crowd.  Yes, we believe that all our works cannot save us. Yes, we believe it is through the Atoning blood of Jesus Christ that we are saved.  But our emphasis is on the continual EFFORT to endure to the end.

"After" does encourage us to put forth all we have to obtain that Grace.

"After" is the correct word.

There is nothing that indicates the Bible Dictionary is revelation. In fact, most of it is pulled directly from a much earlier Cambridge Bible Dictionary, and much of it is entirely wrong. 2 Nephi 10:24 reaches the exact same conclusion as I do, and is basically a more clear expression of what 2 Nephi 25:23 means:

Quote

and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

That's the long and the short of it right there. 

[maklelan]

5 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

It’s really very simple. Nephi is saying men must accept and embrace the fact that God has graciously done mighty things for the salvation of man that they are utterly incapable of providing to themselves. First, they must come unto Christ in faith as Lord and Savior, with the realization that without his atoning sacrifice they would inescapably be dragged down to the misery of hell and become angels to the devil forever. Next, they need to understand that in order to be saved they must be reconciled to God by receiving a remission of their sins through Christ’s atoning sacrifice, a gift of divine grace that they are utterly incapable of providing for themselves, for a man cannot atone for his own sins. While it’s true a man can suffer for his own sins and have his heart softened thereby, nevertheless he can never atone for his own sins, for only and infinite and eternal sacrifice of God, not man, can expiate sin.

So Nephi is saying that if a man wants to be saved he must realize that though he might wear out his life in a quest of attempting to prove to God and man that he is righteous and worthy of salvation, unless that man comes down in the depths of humility and accepts the great and gracious blessings of salvation God offers him that he cannot provide for himself (for only God can provide them) he cannot and will not be saved. In other words, the true path to salvation starts at the point when a man comprehends that it is only in and through the grace of God that he can be saved. After coming unto Christ in living faith, and being reconciled to God the Father through him, a man can strive to live the kind of holy life that doesn’t frustrate the continued outpouring of God’s salvative blessings, but in the end it’s still only divine grace, realized by faith, that has the power to save him.

The Book of Mormon consistently describes reconciliation with God and Christ as the initial entry through the gate onto the path (2 Nephi 10:24; 31:17; 33:9; Moroni 10:32), and 2 Nephi 10:24 explicitly states that once you've entered into the gate through repentance and baptism, grace is the only thing that saves you. I discuss all this in greater detail in the paper.

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, maklelan said:

The Book of Mormon consistently describes reconciliation with God and Christ as the initial entry through the gate onto the path (2 Nephi 10:24; 31:17; 33:9; Moroni 10:32), and 2 Nephi 10:24 explicitly states that once you've entered into the gate through repentance and baptism, grace is the only thing that saves you. I discuss all this in greater detail in the paper.

You do realize that there is a contradiction in what you are saying.  Obviously if someone does not reconcile with G-d and Christ to enter into the gate through repentance and baptism (something they can and must DO) - they cannot be saved even by or regardless of G-d's grace.  I read your entire paper (Thanks).

It is also my understanding that in the grand counsel of the pre-existence that all this was carefully and explicitly explained.  Lucifer and all that followed him; rejected the Plan of Salvation - it was something that they did that shut them away from the grace of G-d.  Obviously we must participate in the divine Plan of Salvation, as an act of faith, for grace to have place in us.  But without the atoning sacrifice of Christ there could be no salvation and it is my understanding that even without the fall - that without the atonement - there would be no eternal salvation.

 

The Traveler

[maklelan]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

You do realize that there is a contradiction in what you are saying. 

No, I'm accurately representing the intended message of the texts.

Quote

 

Obviously if someone does not reconcile with G-d and Christ to enter into the gate through repentance and baptism (something they can and must DO) - they cannot be saved even by or regardless of G-d's grace.

 

Yes, that is correct. This is the Book of Mormon's consistent position on grace. I don't see any contradiction.

[laronius]

I think some of the confusion here is because people are talking about two different things: the doctrine of grace in total vs what specific element of that doctrine Nephi is focusing on. One doesn't make the other untrue but it does create misunderstanding.

[Carborendum]

7 hours ago, maklelan said:

There is nothing that indicates the Bible Dictionary is revelation. In fact, most of it is pulled directly from a much earlier Cambridge Bible Dictionary,

I didn't mean to say that the Bible Dictionary is "revelation."  I read back on my post, and I realize that is the way my statement reads.  Unintentional.

It doesn't have to be "revelation" to still be correct. And the follow up statements from Benson and Moroni back up the definition in the BD.

I would think that including many entries from the Cambridge Bible Dictionary is akin to Joseph Smith's inclusion of various Bible Commentaries in the JST.  They had to be reviewed by the Church Correlation Committee as well as the First Presidency and the Twelve.  Approved by our best minds, but, no, not revelation.  Agreed.

Quote

and much of it is entirely wrong.

I don't know about "much" or "entirely" since I don't have a copy myself.  But I'd be interested in a few examples of what you refer to.  Are such examples abundantly represented in the Bible Dictionary? i.e. are there many examples of "entirely wrong" entries in the Bible Dictionary?

Quote

2 Nephi 10:24 reaches the exact same conclusion as I do, and is basically a more clear expression of what 2 Nephi 25:23 means:

That's the long and the short of it right there. 

And I agree with the same conclusion.  My comment was that the use of the word "despite" gives a different connotation and impression.  It is not there by definition.  But when we, today, hear the word "despite" we get the impression that "all that led up to it" was useless.  It isn't useless.  It is necessary to become reconciled to God.

Notice the disclaimer from my previous post.

On 11/13/2020 at 6:31 AM, Carborendum said:

Literal meaning or not, reality of the details or not, the end result and conclusion must be that using "despite" discourages us from doing anything to obtain His mercy. It discourages us from even TRYING. 

It would seem that while a fuller discussion would indicate that we share the same position on the overall process, it is the use of the word "despite" that I have difficulty accepting as giving the correct impression or message.

Your quote of Nephi indicates it differently than you've been stating.

Quote

and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

"After" indicates that it is a prerequisite.  There is a sequencing -- first, all we can do; second the grace of God.  It might provide more clarity if we use the if-then pattern:

Quote

IF we do all we can do, THEN it is by the Grace of God that we are saved.

"Despite" implies that "all we can do" has nothing to do with it.  It implies that "we might as well forget about it."  But that is not what the scriptures tell us.  Denotation aside, the connotation is there.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Carborendum

[maklelan]

23 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I don't know about "much" or "entirely" since I don't have a copy myself.  But I'd be interested in a few examples of what you refer to.  Are such examples abundantly represented in the Bible Dictionary? i.e. are there many examples of "entirely wrong" entries in the Bible Dictionary?

Yes, there are many examples. As just one example, the entry on Baal says Baal was the "Sun-god," which is absolutely not true. I have a running list of corrections to make to the Bible Dictionary. 

Quote

And I agree with the same conclusion.  My comment was that the use of the word "despite" gives a different connotation and impression.  It is not there by definition.  But when we, today, hear the word "despite" we get the impression that "all that led up to it" was useless.  It isn't useless.  It is necessary to become reconciled to God.

I would suggest the rhetorical focus of the clause is on the period following reconciliation, and the relevance of those actions in and of themselves on salvation. Like 2 Nephi 10:24, this passage is referring to the second stage of a two-stage process of justification and sanctification. I would point to Mosiah 2:21 as support for the dismissal of the relevance of everything we might possibly do.  

Quote

 

Notice the disclaimer from my previous post.

It would seem that while a fuller discussion would indicate that we share the same position on the overall process, it is the use of the word "despite" that I have difficulty accepting as giving the correct impression or message.

Your quote of Nephi indicates it differently than you've been stating.

"After" indicates that it is a prerequisite.  There is a sequencing -- first, all we can do; second the grace of God.  It might provide more clarity if we use the if-then pattern:

 

This is the two-stage process that I outline in the paper. 

Quote

"Despite" implies that "all we can do" has nothing to do with it.  It implies that "we might as well forget about it."  But that is not what the scriptures tell us.  Denotation aside, the connotation is there.

The scriptures are describing a two-stage process, and 2 Nephi 10:24 states as clearly as possible that salvation is only in and through the grace of God. 

[JohnsonJones]

James 2

Yes, it is ONLY by Grace we are saved.  Works (even Baptism as a work) cannot save us.  However, the Lord has requested we do certain things for him to extend his grace to us, and we can faith in him to save us. 

How does one know if they believe and have faith in the Lord.  By Works...meaning doing the things the Lord has commanded us. Works do not save us, but Faith without works is also likewise indicative that there is no faith...or is dead.

Quote

¹⁷ Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

¹⁸ Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

¹⁹ Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

²⁰ But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

²¹ Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

²² Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

²³ And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

²⁴ Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

²⁵ Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

²⁶ For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Once scripture (or an individuals lone interpretation of it) does not invalidate others, in fact, rather than contradict each other, they support the other scriptures as the gospel is one big whole.  In that light, one must see how the scriptures conjoin and cooperate in the principles they teach, as a whole, rather than trying to dissect one individual verse to say what one wishes it does.

Edit

To say the whole of this is impossible, but simply to say, one could theoretically say that we are saved by grace, but is the promises of the Lord that enforces that grace to save.  By making covenants (of which Baptism and the Sacrament are some of these covenants) the Lord promises us salvation contingent upon our obedience to the commandments which he has given us.  Thus, we see that by works...or obedience to the commands of the Lord in keeping our part of our covenants (and we are lucky that part of these incorporate repentance and the ability to repent of our sins so that the atonement is promised to cleanse us from those sins) he is, by his own promise (and as long as he is good and honorable, and we KNOW he IS good and honorable) then he must thereby extend the promises of salvation and exaltation to us.  Thus, while it is by grace we are saved, it is by the covenants and the works we do in the enforcement of those covenants, and all we can do to keep those covenants, that those promises are ensured (rather than simply relying on his good graces) to be fulfilled and we are saved and exalted.

Or at least that's one way to look at it.

PS:  I believe an in omnipotent Lord, which means he can save whoever he wants to save.  He can do whatever he wants.  He could save someone who never made a single covenant or did anything to deserve salvation or any works or anything else.  He has the power to do that and anything else.  HOWEVER, as he has promised certain things, by fulfilling those promises, he is bound when we do what he says.  D&C 82

Quote

8 And again, I say unto you, I give unto you a new commandment, that you may understand my will concerning you;

9 Or, in other words, I give unto you directions how you may act before me, that it may turn to you for your salvation.

10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by JohnsonJones

[Carborendum]

On 11/17/2020 at 1:35 PM, maklelan said:

Yes, there are many examples. As just one example, the entry on Baal says Baal was the "Sun-god," which is absolutely not true. I have a running list of corrections to make to the Bible Dictionary. 

I would suggest the rhetorical focus of the clause is on the period following reconciliation, and the relevance of those actions in and of themselves on salvation. Like 2 Nephi 10:24, this passage is referring to the second stage of a two-stage process of justification and sanctification. I would point to Mosiah 2:21 as support for the dismissal of the relevance of everything we might possibly do.  

This is the two-stage process that I outline in the paper. 

The scriptures are describing a two-stage process, and 2 Nephi 10:24 states as clearly as possible that salvation is only in and through the grace of God. 

Let me put this another way.

Do I need to wake up in the morning to go to work?  Yes.  Obviously.  But no one would turn that into "Waking up in the morning CAUSES me to work."

Hence, "I go to work AFTER I wake up" works.

"I go to work DESPITE waking up" doesn't work.

The prerequisite aspect indicates that "work" is the motivating force behind getting up in the morning to begin with.  How many of us like to sleep in if we don't have to go to work?

"Despite" says that somehow waking up in the  morning sort of hampers the effort of going to work.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Carborendum

[laronius]

@maklelan after reading your paper I think you make a pretty convincing case for Joseph's original intent on that verse. I think the fact that seemingly so little was said by church leaders over the first 50 years about this verse tells us that not only did they not have an issue with the wording but also with the doctrine it implied, unlike today where there is much debate and even a lot of doctrinal twister going on to try to make a modern interpretation of that verse fit with the rest of our doctrine. I think it is possible, depending on how you define things, but I was never comfortable with the idea that a teaching so much at the core of what we believe could be anything but simple and straight forward to understand. Interpreting "after" as "despite" doesn't negate the essential role of our works in the process but rather focuses on the essential element of the role of Christ in all this which is exactly the context in which this verse is being spoken of.

As a side note I am really coming to like Moroni 10:32 in understanding this doctrine as to me it more clearly teaches exactly what is going on. The principle of being "perfected in Christ" is very descriptive and conveys, to me, a much clearer picture of the importance of what we do and become without minimizing the overarching role of Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer.

[Jersey Boy]

On 12/24/2020 at 8:24 AM, laronius said:

@maklelan after reading your paper I think you make a pretty convincing case for Joseph's original intent on that verse. I think the fact that seemingly so little was said by church leaders over the first 50 years about this verse tells us that not only did they not have an issue with the wording but also with the doctrine it implied, unlike today where there is much debate and even a lot of doctrinal twister going on to try to make a modern interpretation of that verse fit with the rest of our doctrine. I think it is possible, depending on how you define things, but I was never comfortable with the idea that a teaching so much at the core of what we believe could be anything but simple and straight forward to understand. Interpreting "after" as "despite" doesn't negate the essential role of our works in the process but rather focuses on the essential element of the role of Christ in all this which is exactly the context in which this verse is being spoken of.

As a side note I am really coming to like Moroni 10:32 in understanding this doctrine as to me it more clearly teaches exactly what is going on. The principle of being "perfected in Christ" is very descriptive and conveys, to me, a much clearer picture of the importance of what we do and become without minimizing the overarching role of Jesus Christ as our Savior and Redeemer.

This verse cannot be properly understood without reference to the fact that the reason why Nephi was laboring so diligently wasn’t to persuade his people to understand that it is by grace that they are saved after all they can do, for that is mentioned only to the reader as a clarifying aside. No, the reason why Nephi was laboring diligently was to persuade his people to believe in Christ and be reconciled to God the Father through his atoning sacrifice. With this in mind , it becomes clear that what Nephi is trying to communicate TO THE READER is that a man can wear out his life in devoted service to God, but unless he first believes in Christ and has been reconciled to God through his atoning sacrifice all that expenditure of effort is in vain, for a man cannot be saved by his own effort. This is why we are told that “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to the glory of the Father that Jesus is the Christ”. Without faith in Christ, receiving his forgiveness for our sins, and being redeemed from the fallen nature by virtue of his atoning sacrifice, all is lost.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Jersey Boy