NeedleinA

Are members in your area: Awake or Asleep?

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The following quote from President Benson has really resonated with me this morning:

Quote

…(A) neutralizer that the devil (uses) most effectively…is simply this: “Don’t do anything in the fight for freedom until the Church sets up its own program to save the Constitution.”…Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific Church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. Perhaps if he set up one at this time it might split the Church asunder, and perhaps he does not want that to happen yet, for not all the wheat and tares are fully ripe. The Prophet Joseph Smith declared it will be the elders of Israel who will step forward to help save the Constitution, not the Church! (Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1965)

So it led me to wonder, how is your ward, your Relief Society, your Elders Q, etc. doing in the "fight for freedom"? Awake or asleep?
I wonder how many faithful members would step forward only "if" the Church said we are going to do 'X' to fight for freedom but are unwilling to do so unless the Church does the thinking, planning & lifting for them?

In my Church circles, Ward, EQ & High Council I feel like I only see about a 10-15% 'awake' attitude. I don't know if more are awake, but don't want to publicly rock the boat, or are oblivious or what?
So, curious, what do you see in your area?
It appears, according to Pres. Benson, it will be the members who step forward to save the Constitution, not the Church.
Thoughts?

Edited by NeedleinA

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To be frank, the people in my ward who are most politically active also tend to be the least Christlike and the ones to hop on the conservative Headline news (ie “the dems hate American!” Or “The dems all want to make pedophilia legal!”).

There is one brother in our ward that prides himself on being politically active and uses scripture to rebuke those who aren’t. During some political hype dealing with the Middle East, he posted a picture to FB saying “why do we dump so much money into helping other nations that don’t want us, why don’t we just let them all kill themselves!? That’s what they want!”

From what I have seen, it won’t be the saints who are watching every political breakdown and are constantly campaigning for different delegates in different offices that will be the saints saving the constitution. I see it being those that are politically aware and vote righteously, but choose to dedicate their time to serving God instead of engaging in non-stop political discourse.

I have a few members in my ward that are constantly inviting me to political stuff and I always turn them down cause I just don’t want to associate myself with them.

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The best thing you can do to prepare in my opinion is build up your food, water storage (also take an inventory and get an idea of what you have as you can forget what you already have in your storage) and have a decent first aid kit.  Listening to the Holy Spirit on what you should do for other preparations that you need to do is essential.  Exercise as well and do what you can to keep your body in decent physical condition.

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15-20% awake.

 

33 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

The best thing you can do to prepare in my opinion is build up your food, water storage (also take an inventory and get an idea of what you have as you can forget what you already have in your storage) and have a decent first aid kit.  Listening to the Holy Spirit on what you should do for other preparations that you need to do is essential.  Exercise as well and do what you can to keep your body in decent physical condition.

 

Yep, get your preps in.

 

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More and more it seems that the world is turning towards political animosity.   It is as though anyone with different political views is evil.  Sadly, I am aware of some Democrats that have quit associating with other church members because they feel unwelcome - or even hostel resentment.   I am not sure that the references to the priesthood saving the Constitution is primarily intended to foster "political" activism.  The constitution does not favor any political party neither did Christ.  During the time of Christ - tax collectors were not welcome anywhere in traditional Jewish communities - but Jesus did not turn them (or other sinners) away.

I would like to think I am an example but I tend to be more of a bad example.  I cannot find for myself how to deal with certain elements of our society that are in great need of spiritual healing.  One of the messages from our last conference  seemed a rebuke towards my attitudes of  loving my enemies (philosophical adversaries) .  I am at somewhat of a lose of how to show love to political rivals in today's political climate.  If I am not asleep - I may be dreaming none-the-less.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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Great timing for this question.  Joint this post with @Colirio's post in the other thread, and we get some answers to some things I've been pondering.

Of the many criticisms that I see coming from the left as well as from never-trumpers is that he is DIVISIVE.  My knee jerk reaction says this is undeniable.  But is that really the case?  And even if it is, is that a bad thing?

Jesus, Himself was divisive.

Quote

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

 -- Matt 10:34-35

How is it that the Prince of Peace came NOT to send peace on earth, but a sword?  I guess we can kiss a lot of Christmas carols goodbye.

No, instead, the Lord did not bring a physical sword to force people with physical violence to His way.  Instead his sword was the Sword of His Spirit.  It was taking an unwavering stand for something.  It was refusing to back down from what was right.

I know it is always inviting flack when comparing Trump to Christ.  Obviously, not similar people.  But the standard the Lord set is always a yardstick by which we may see if something is right or wrong.

I am always wondering why people compare Trump to Hitler. Here are some things that prove he's not.

  • We have a majority of Americans who are very vocal about hating him and everything he stands for.  I don't see them being hauled away to concentration camps.
  • The fact that he has issued "guidelines" for the shut down and allowed governors to apply them in any way they want -- or not at all (as in several states).
  • He has begged governors to allow him to send in federal forces to help quell the violence taking over cities controlled by Democrats.  But he clearly, overtly stated that he has to obey the law that says he cannot send them in without a governor's permission/request
  • He has called the press the "enemy of the people" and "fake news" which was simple fact.  But I don't see him shutting any of them down through force.  And there are many ways that he could have legally enforced such shut downs given the number of inaccuracies the MSM has published over the past four years.  But he hasn't taken any action to close them.  NONE!!!

What does this have to do with peace?  Again and again, he has shown that he is abiding by the law.  He's probably the most Constitutional President in my lifetime.  So, why do they call him divisive?  Any time someone takes an uncompromising position, they are divisive.  It doesn't matter if they are good or bad principles.  It is the unwillingness to compromise that makes a person divisive.  And he has refused to compromise on anything I am aware of.

So, how does this play into the idea of waking up or saving the Constitution?  I would answer that with a question: Why do so many people find Trump to be so engaging?  Why do they think he's such a HERO?

The average hard working patriotic American knows what is right.  And we believe in freedom.  Freedom of Religion, Speech, press, etc.  But we all feel that we are losing such rights.  Most people are "waiting for Superman."  It is a phrase that means that the issues have become so big that no one thinks they can really do anything about it.  But they hope that someone who does have some power can actually come forth and do what we all WANT him to do.

  • We had hope with Kennedy.  But he did the Bay of Pigs and handled the Cuban Missile crisis poorly.  And he started us down the path to Vietnam.  Then he was assassinated.  So, there's that.  
  • Then there was Johnson.  I honestly don't know of anyone who thought he did any good. He he got us even further into the quagmire that was Vietnam.
  • Nixon.  'nuff said.  SALT -- oh boy. 
  • Ford.  Nothing.  Have a nice trip.  See you next fall.  He was actually a very decent man.  But he was completely ineffective in such a powerful executive role.  He was simply harmless as a dove, but not wise as wolves among a swamp of crocodiles.
  • Carter.  Worse than nothing.  Oil crisis, anyone? SALT II (face palm).
  • We thought it was Reagan.  And while he did a lot of good.  He compromised on many things as well.  Although, I don't think enough credit can be given to him for bringing about the end of the Soviet Union and their stranglehold on all their satellite countries.
  • We didn't really have much faith in Bush Sr.  And he mostly did... nothing.  And sometimes I wish Presidents would do more of that.
  • We thought it was Clinton.  And while he was good for the economy, he destroyed any semblance of honor for the Presidency, and did absolutely nothing else that was lastingly noteworthy.  So, between Bush and Clinton, pretty much nothing happened.
  • We thought it was Bush Jr.  And he got us into an eternal war, took away a lot of our freedoms, increased the federal bureaucracy, and made it virtually impossible for us to do things without the Federal government knowing about it.
  • We thought it was Obama.  He increased freedom for the progressive agenda while curtailing religious freedom at every turn.  We got all sorts of additional freedoms at the expense of the freedoms found in the First Amendment.
  • Most of us refused to believe Trump was going to be "it".  But he was the flip side of Ford.  He was in no way as decent as Ford.  But he was absolutely effective at navigating the swamp and rooting out the crocodiles.  How many actually expected this?  Not the majority.  He got us out of several wars.  He kept us out of several other wars.  He brokered the Middle East peace agreements.  He's provided the best economy in history.  He's restored religious freedom on a level unparalleled by anyone on this list.  He's brought more minorities out of poverty than any 10 liberal politicians.

We wake up by noticing that this may be "Superman" (per the figure of speech I outlined earlier). There are two movie quotes that are perfect to describe what I think of Trump.

Quote

In normal times, evil would be fought by good. But in times like these, well, it should be fought by another kind of evil.

 -- Aereon, Chronicles of Riddick

No, I don't like the guy.  I think he's an ---------.  But maybe an --------- is just what we need right now.

 -- Richard Drysdale, Knives Out (2019)

Waiting for Superman.  It's the tendency of the human race.  Not that we're to be ruled, but that we are to be led.  Today, with the Constitution supposedly guaranteeing freedoms, we stand today with surprisingly little.  With a Constitution meant to limit governmental power, we find ourselves ruled by politicians who use their power to extort millions (and billions) of dollars with impunity.  Mark my words, Obama, Hillary, and neither one of the Bidens will see a single day of prison time over this.

Wake up?  Yes, we're all awake.  But most of us are sitting here saying,"What are we supposed to do about it?  We have no power to do anything but vote.  And in this election, scams and other fraud is going to take that away from us."

What are you (to everyone) doing about it?

Edited by Carborendum

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55 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Wake up?  Yes, we're all awake.  But most of us are sitting here saying,"What are we supposed to do about it?  We have no power to do anything but vote.  And in this election, scams and other fraud is going to take that away from us."

What are you (to everyone) doing about it?

I am remembered of, The War Goes on by Elder Larry R. Lawrence

Quote

The premortal war was fought with words, ideas, debate, and persuasion (see Revelation 12:7–9, 11). Satan’s strategy was to frighten people. He knew that fear is the best way to destroy faith. He may have used arguments like these: “It’s too hard.”

When we "step forward" and fight for the constitution (inspired by the Lord), who are we really fighting against? The adversary.
The adversary would have us give up hope. He would try to silence us. He would have others mock us for our efforts.
 

Edited by NeedleinA

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46 minutes ago, Grunt said:

1. Have you read The Blue Book of the John Birch Society?    
2. I'm surprised more Latter-day Saints don't step up, but maybe I shouldn't be.

1. I have not read it but see it listed on Amazon.
2. In our neck of the woods, when it comes to Church related things, the saying is "10% of the Ward does 90% of the work". Unfortunately, I've found this to be pretty true. I wonder how this ratio translates to other aspects of life outside of the Church?

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Any mention of the John Birch Society gets immediate eye-rolls from many. The accusation is that they are quick to condemn as Communist those they disagree with. Perhaps they would be accused of being a right-wing version of cancel culture. I hunger for civility, a return to intelligent public debate, and an embrace on both sides of the aisle to the concept of "loyal opposition." We're Americans. We love our country. We disagree on how best to improve society. :lookaround:

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3 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Any mention of the John Birch Society gets immediate eye-rolls from many. The accusation is that they are quick to condemn as Communist those they disagree with. Perhaps they would be accused of being a right-wing version of cancel culture. I hunger for civility, a return to intelligent public debate, and an embrace on both sides of the aisle to the concept of "loyal opposition." We're Americans. We love our country. We disagree on how best to improve society. :lookaround:

I've seen that.   They were founded as an anti-communist organization before most of us were born, but really they seem to be just constitutionalists.  I think that those who find the constitution a nuisance to their goals would be quick to condemn them.    I've read many of their books and articles.  They have a decent track record of correct predictions.

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In my college years was part of the Young Americans for Freedom (YAF) chapter at my college. We wanted to establish a conservative group based upon principles, not party. One of the founding fathers of the group was William F. Buckley Jr. It turns out that he and Robert Welch, founder of the John Birch Society, had a falling out. The main controversy seems to have been whether President Eisenhower was guilty of treason. The episode is recounted here: https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/06/william-f-buckley-john-birch-society-history-conflict-robert-welch/

Edited by prisonchaplain

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48 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

In my college years was part of the Young Americans for Freedom (YAF) chapter at my college. We wanted to establish a conservative group based upon principles, not party. One of the founding fathers of the group was William F. Buckley Jr. It turns out that he and Robert Welch, founder of the John Birch Society, had a falling out. The main controversy seems to have been whether President Eisenhower was guilty of treason. The episode is recounted here: https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/06/william-f-buckley-john-birch-society-history-conflict-robert-welch/

If you read "The Politician" it goes into this pretty solidly.  One of his largest issues with Eisenhower was his support of Operation Keelhaul.

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23 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

The following quote from President Benson has really resonated with me this morning:

So it led me to wonder, how is your ward, your Relief Society, your Elders Q, etc. doing in the "fight for freedom"? Awake or asleep?
I wonder how many faithful members would step forward only "if" the Church said we are going to do 'X' to fight for freedom but are unwilling to do so unless the Church does the thinking, planning & lifting for them?

In my Church circles, Ward, EQ & High Council I feel like I only see about a 10-15% 'awake' attitude. I don't know if more are awake, but don't want to publicly rock the boat, or are oblivious or what?
So, curious, what do you see in your area?
It appears, according to Pres. Benson, it will be the members who step forward to save the Constitution, not the Church.
Thoughts?

Random thoughts:

1) This sermon was given eight years before Roe.  We have now been a nation of gleeful baby-killers for some forty-seven years.  Other elements of radical leftism have gone mainstream and infect the right as well as the left.  As Americans we are, by and large, a lazy people, an envious people, a lecherous people, a vulgar people, a profligate people, a short-sighted people, a cruel people, a power-hungry people, an intolerant people; hell-bent on exporting our “values” to every group over which we can assert power and unwilling to allow those within our jurisdiction to “opt out” of our excesses and weaknesses.  We’ve long known that the secular left hates us; but it’s been interesting for me over the past four years, lurking on a number of mainstream conservative fora and seeing the contempt *they* have not only for LDS centrists like Romney and Flake, but even for LDS hard-line conservatives like Lee; our maiming, rape, and deaths are openly fantasized about by conservatives and liberals alike.  The Saints in this country are openly hated in a way we haven’t been for perhaps a hundred years.  And as a matter of historical record, the US remains the only modern nation-state to have allowed apostles to be murdered within its borders; (as far as I know) the only modern nation-state to have imprisoned an apostle; and the only modern nation-state to have allowed (twice) an attempted genocide against the Saints.  

In that context I’m not sure the US, as a political entity, can be saved.  I’m not sure the US should be saved.  Our national sins are not, on the whole, what the leftists claim they are—but they do exist, and they are legion.

2)  Whether 1) above is absolutely true or not—conditions have nonetheless changed enough that I’m more interested in what the current Church leadership is saying than in what President Benson said fifty-five years ago.  

3)  You can destroy a free democratic republic from the top down—but you can’t save or create one that way.  The most effective and meaningful “fighting” you can do is to hold a neighborhood barbecue (and better yet, bring the missionaries).

4)  Saving the constitution doesn’t necessarily mean preserving the political union, or the power, or the natural resources, or the international statute, or the territorial integrity, of the current US.  It may mean preparing a people willing to implement the individual and civic virtues that are necessary for an individual-rights-oriented democratic republic to function.  Certainly the modern Democratic Party and their henchmen in media and academia tend to undermine that—and I would suggest they haven’t done it, since the 1960s at least.  But Trump does, too.  If we get too bound up in “winning” at the current political game of thrones, we risk being crushed by the stone cut without hands rather than becoming one with it.

5)  If I may indulge my anti-Trump hobby horse a moment:  the GOP had seventeen candidates in the 2016 primary; and we chose—if not THE most immoral candidates, certainly one of the bottom five.  What, pray tell, has the religious right done lately that would indicate to God that we give a flying flip about His protection and aid?  

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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8 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

What, pray tell, has the religious right done lately that would indicate to God that we give a flying flip about His protection and aid?  

I can't disagree with you regarding the state of the union in this generation.  I just disagree with your take on it.

What was the "solution" in the days of Lehi?  Yes, cry repentance.  Turn to the Lord.  And as individuals and small groups, we can.  Lehi, anyone?  Daniel?  Today... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

For others, what was the Lord's solution?  Yes, he gave Israel every opportunity to repent and return to him.  That is always a better solution and better scenario... if the people will actually take advantage of that option.  But in Lehi's day and in our day, too many will not turn to the Lord.

Sodom and Gomorrah were given SO much leeway.  Only FIVE righteous people.  But those five were not enough to save the cities of the plains.  Instead, the Lord told them to get out while He destroyed the cities.

Israel was given SO much leeway, SO many times.  But no number was given.  Lehi was told to leave.  I'm sure others were too.  But the solution was to replace all the wicked rulers with a less wicked, but still wicked ruler -- Nebuchadnezzar.  Yes, yes, I've said it before.  But if you can indulge your anti-Trump hobby horse again, I can indulge this parallel once again.  I don't think Daniel and his friends would have ever said that Nebuchadnezzar was righteous.  He even said otherwise.  But he recognized the course of events that the wickedness of Israel brought upon the nation and people.  And he realized they were the judgments of God.

In our day, God does not raise up or take down our leaders.  We elect them.  As a people of differing backgrounds, oipinions, perspectives, and values, we elect them.  Because of the level of wickedness of the nation, the ENTIRE nation suffers.  The people simply will not accept a Ted Cruz.  They outright showed they would not accept a "Bleedin' Mormon."  I did an analysis of the numbers.  Basically Romney lost the swing state votes by the same number of evangelical Christians in those states.  The people don't want such leaders.  So, we have to suffer the consequences.

The Lord accepts the lesser of two evils for leaders of nations.  Why is it such a crime if we do the same?  We root for better; we campaign for better, we try to convince others that we should look for better.  But in the end, the voice of the people goes elsewhere.  And we're left with the unenviable position of the Samuel Principle.  "OK, if you're not going to vote for virtuous leaders, there's nothing I can do about it.  But to minimize the damage..."

In the meantime, I'd echo @mirkwood's advice.  Leave Jerusalem and go into the wilderness with provisions.  I'm speaking metaphorically mostly.  One of the reasons I chose the location I did was that I was close enough to a major city to have business dealings.  But I was far enough away that the fire and brimstone won't quite hit me.

Yes, if these shadows remain unaltered by the future... there may be no stopping it.  All we can do is "pull a Lehi."  Cry repentance, then take off.

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9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’m more interested in what the current Church leadership is saying than in what President Benson said fifty-five years ago.

I fully agree, a living prophet is more important than a dead one.
Out of curiosity, if a modern day (2020) prophet/apostle was the author of the Benson quote, do you think as a membership of the Church, without a specific church program in place, would we rise to the occasion any differently than we are seeing now?

In (1992) - Elder Dallin H. Oaks shared:

Quote

Citizen Responsibilities

U.S. citizens have an inspired Constitution, and therefore, what? Does the belief that the U.S. Constitution is divinely inspired affect citizens’ behavior toward law and government? It should and it does.

U.S. citizens should follow the First Presidency’s counsel to study the Constitution.17 They should be familiar with its great fundamentals: the separation of powers, the individual guarantees in the Bill of Rights, the structure of federalism, the sovereignty of the people, and the principles of the rule of the law. They should oppose any infringement of these inspired fundamentals.

Heavy U.S.A. topics of yesteryear, as illustrated by Pres. Benson may never be able to be fully addressed like they used to be as the Church transitioned away from a mostly USA based church to a true global one. I realize Church leadership needs to produce universal talks for everyone now days, not necessarily specific to the USA.

USA specific quotes from the Church become harder and harder to find post 1996... some 24 years ago.

Quote

On Sunday, February 25, 1996, the Church crossed a twentieth-century historic membership mark when, according to estimates by Church statisticians, there were more Church members that day living outside the United States than there were members living in the United States, the host nation where the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored nearly 166 years ago.

 

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15 hours ago, Grunt said:

If you read "The Politician" it goes into this pretty solidly.  One of his largest issues with Eisenhower was his support of Operation Keelhaul.

To be upfront, I did not read the book. However, I read the controversial paragraph, as well as some writings about Welch's private letter-edition, that included stronger implications about President Eisenhower. Then, further reading that President Benson was a supporter. To me, this suggests that the JBS discussion is probably one that is difficult and sensitive within the church.

So, from an outsider's perspective, what I have come away with is that JBS seems to have been to conservatism what Bill Gothard was to Evangelical parenting. Gothard promoted a family structure that focused on spiritual authority and "spiritual covering." The gist of it was likely biblical, but graduates of his program (the parents, that is) sometimes became very insistent on particular interpretations of scripture--so much so that some congregations experienced turmoil (i.e. pastoral leadership did not always agree). Frankly, there was a season during which many pastors became quite gun-shy when they found out one or more of their church members were 'Gothardites.'  Bill Gothard was not a cult leader, nor even necessarily a heretic. He was just incredibly sure of some matters that not really settled doctrine.

Politician-A wants to raise taxes on the highest earners. This is income-redistribution. Communists redistribute wealth. Politician-A might not be a Communist, but if s/he walks like a duck and sounds like a duck--well, maybe s/he's just a 'useful idiot.' It's the aggressive, take-no-prisoners, moderates-are-collaborators approach that concerns me. I'm more conservative than moderate, but the middle ground is not always of collusion and sellout. Sometimes it is the place where "The Art of the Deal" can take place. :money: 

Edited by prisonchaplain

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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Yes, if these shadows remain unaltered by the future... there may be no stopping it.  All we can do is "pull a Lehi."  Cry repentance, then take off

I am hoping it does not come down to this but I am not counting it out.  If you leave your home you become a refugee.  All my supplies are at home and I want to be near them.  But I will try to do what ever the LORD tells me I need to do.

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25 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I am hoping it does not come down to this but I am not counting it out.  If you leave your home you become a refugee.  All my supplies are at home and I want to be near them.  But I will try to do what ever the LORD tells me I need to do.

That's the beauty of modern life.  Geographic separation is not what is important in many cases.

I'm geographically separated from Houston proper because downtown Houston... don't want to be there.  But the virtual world is something else.  I'm going to be able to bug out at home.  Me, my family, and my watermelons.

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1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

To be upfront, I did not read the book. However, I read the controversial paragraph, as well as some writings about Welch's private letter-edition, that included stronger implications about President Eisenhower. Then, further reading that President Benson was a supporter. To me, this suggests that the JBS discussion is probably one that is difficult and sensitive within the church.

So, from an outsider's perspective, what I have come away with is that JBS seems to have been to conservatism what Bill Gothard was to Evangelical parenting. Gothard promoted a family structure that focused on spiritual authority and "spiritual covering." The gist of it was likely biblical, but graduates of his program (the parents, that is) sometimes became very insistent on particular interpretations of scripture--so much so that some congregations experienced turmoil (i.e. pastoral leadership did not always agree). Frankly, there was a season during which many pastors became quite gun-shy when they found out one or more of their church members were 'Gothardites.'  Bill Gothard was not a cult leader, nor even necessarily a heretic. He was just incredibly sure of some matters that not really settled doctrine.

Politician-A wants to raise taxes on the highest earners. This is income-redistribution. Communists redistribute wealth. Politician-A might not be a Communist, but if s/he walks like a duck and sounds like a duck--well, maybe s/he's just a 'useful idiot.' It's the aggressive, take-no-prisoners, moderates-are-collaborators approach that concerns me. I'm more conservative than moderate, but the middle ground is not always of collusion and sellout. Sometimes it is the place where "The Art of the Deal" can take place. :money: 

I don't think JBS is a sensitive topic in the Church.  I don't know anyone in the Church that belongs to the organization.  I read just about anything suggested to me and found many of the JBS scholarly articles and Welch's speeches to be insightful, even if sometimes misdirected.  
 

Back in Welch's day communism was the boogie man but really most of his supporting writings was more a warning of globalization and the micro steps leading to it.  He was convinced many politicians and the media were complicit and playing the long game.   Many of his concerns have been realized.  

Edited by Grunt

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8 minutes ago, Vort said:

When I was a child, many Latter-day Saints belonged to the JBS until it became intolerably unpopular to do so.

Based on their modern articles and issues, I wouldn't be surprised if many Latter-day Saints were members, just not talking about it.

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17 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

1) This sermon was given eight years before Roe.  We have now been a nation of gleeful baby-killers for some forty-seven years.  

You are better suited from your profession to understand but it was my understanding that the entire argument of the left with Roe was that it is impossible to prove a fetus in the first trimester is human life.  Therefore a unborn child in the first trimester is not granted any human rights as defined by our constitution.  What has happened since Roe is that any unborn child is not human and this thinking is being advanced to children born during an abortion - are not human and have no rights.

I think rather than reverse Roe - what we ought to do is demonstrate that during the final trimester that the child is:

1. Alive - a living organism that meets all the definitions of life.  

2. That the unborn child is indeed human and must be granted all the right of any other human - including the severer handicap (physical and mental).

 

As an additional side note - I do understand that G-d and nature will abort human life under a variety of conditions - in fact any of us can have our life aborted by G-d and nature for a number of reasons.  Just like we can justly, under the law or extreme condition take another human's life - there may be reason to abort a unborn child to save the life of the mother.  One thing I do agree with about abortions - the mother should not be held to any greater account or responsibility than the father.

 

The Traveler

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On 10/20/2020 at 1:41 PM, NeedleinA said:

The following quote from President Benson has really resonated with me this morning:

So it led me to wonder, how is your ward, your Relief Society, your Elders Q, etc. doing in the "fight for freedom"? Awake or asleep?
I wonder how many faithful members would step forward only "if" the Church said we are going to do 'X' to fight for freedom but are unwilling to do so unless the Church does the thinking, planning & lifting for them?

In my Church circles, Ward, EQ & High Council I feel like I only see about a 10-15% 'awake' attitude. I don't know if more are awake, but don't want to publicly rock the boat, or are oblivious or what?
So, curious, what do you see in your area?
It appears, according to Pres. Benson, it will be the members who step forward to save the Constitution, not the Church.
Thoughts?

Because I am technically not a Latter day Saint yet... I am exempt and therefore I can go all out to set up a plan to

save the USA Constitution.... as well as the USA dollar......

 

The White Horse President prophecy and saving the USA constitution and dollar.

(posted to politicalforum  .com by me, DennisTate) 

 

DennisTate said: 
I DENNIS TATE WISH TO PUT IN A BID TO PRESIDENT NELSON OF ONE QUADRILLION DOLLARS FOR ARTISTIC CONTROL OVER THE CONCEPT FOR THE WHITE HORSE FIRST LADY......... THE OFFER GOES TO MRS. ANN ROMNEY.... AND IS A PROPOSED FUND RAISER FOR THE LDS RELIEF SOCIETY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MORE INFORMATION ON THIS IDEA HERE:

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/a-challenge-for-mr-joe-biden-from-an-aspiring-canadian-politician.579886/


AND HERE.....

Latter day Saints and prevention of another 1929....

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On 10/20/2020 at 9:22 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

4)  Saving the constitution doesn’t necessarily mean preserving the political union, or the power, or the natural resources, or the international statute, or the territorial integrity, of the current US.  It may mean preparing a people willing to implement the individual and civic virtues that are necessary for an individual-rights-oriented democratic republic to function.  Certainly the modern Democratic Party and their henchmen in media and academia tend to undermine that—and I would suggest they haven’t done it, since the 1960s at least.  But Trump does, too.  If we get too bound up in “winning” at the current political game of thrones, we risk being crushed by the stone cut without hands rather than becoming one with it.

I'll bite off on this.

Saving something does not necessarily mean that the things associated with it are also saved.  For example, the ideas of Democracy from Athens and the idea o f a Republic were preserved by Rome through history, but neither that ancient government that was in Athens, nor the Republic or Rome exist today.  They are preserved as are the ideas and policies of their time.

I hope this nation stands for many decades and centuries from now, but if it should fall for whatever reason, perhaps the Saints would establish a new government and society where the constitution still is the ruling regent of the land.

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