Who is G-d that I should know Him.

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, Jonah said:

In Mosiah 2:39, what does it mean that mercy has no claim on that person? If mercy has no claim 
on him, does justice have claim on him?
 

I think the person who dies in ignorance, never hearing the gospel, will be judged by 
whatever light they had before they died. But I think that someone who dies without 
repenting and accepting Christ's atonement has died as an enemy of God since he has 
rejected God's mercy.  Another opinion is that if a person really seeks God, God will
ensure he has the opportunity to hear the gospel by bringing someone into that person's
life that will share the good news; like what happened between Philip and the Ethiopian 
eunuch (Acts 8:26-40).

What I find pleasing and enlightening is that God keeps extending his mercy to us while 
we still have an ability to turn to him.  After a certain point (possibly judgment day), 
a person will either be saved or lost.  God still loves that person, but unfortunately 
they chose to remain unsaved.
 

Revelation 20:6 says "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: 
on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of 
Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".

Do you believe the priests saved from the second death are the same priests of 
Revelation 1:6?

Why are only those in the first resurrection considered priests?

For members of the Church, there could be several answers to that.  One more literal is that at a certain age all young men receive the Aaronic Priesthood and those in their 16th year (it used to be over the age of 16, but now it is the 16th year) are ordained priests.  One could also view one that is married jointly as sharing in the priesthood blessings and as such, the couple being one would be encompassed within the priesthood of the priesthood.  Thus, for a great majority of the members of our Church, those who would be considered part of the Kingdom of the Lord would be priests as long as they are not little children and have been actively involved in the church.

Edited November 15, 2020 by JohnsonJones

[laronius]

33 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

One could also view one that is married jointly as sharing in the priesthood blessings and as such, the couple being one would be encompassed within the priesthood of the priesthood.  Thus, for a great majority of the members of our Church, those who would be considered part of the Kingdom of the Lord would be priests

This I think is actually the more literal interpretation. In Rev 1:6 there are two titles mentioned, kings and priests. The title of priest used here is more of a reference to the role of priest in ancient times rather than the modern church. Anciently the priest was actually a religious leader, not a gospel novice just learning how to exercise the priesthood righteously. As such the dual titles of king and priest are applied to those who have proven faithful and are trusted to rule and reign in the House of Israel as both a governmental as well as a religious leader over their own family kingdoms. This alongside their wives who will likewise reign as queens and priestesses. This position is reserved only for those who have proven their faithfulness. The first resurrection is also reserved for the righteous so yes it is talking about the same people.

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, Jonah said:

In Mosiah 2:39, what does it mean that mercy has no claim on that person? If mercy has no claim 
on him, does justice have claim on him?
 

I think the person who dies in ignorance, never hearing the gospel, will be judged by 
whatever light they had before they died. But I think that someone who dies without 
repenting and accepting Christ's atonement has died as an enemy of God since he has 
rejected God's mercy.  Another opinion is that if a person really seeks God, God will
ensure he has the opportunity to hear the gospel by bringing someone into that person's
life that will share the good news; like what happened between Philip and the Ethiopian 
eunuch (Acts 8:26-40).

Thanks for your response and your opinion.  It is not so different from mine.  

As I understand justice always applies but there is a caveat.  When someone rejects the light of Christ (G-d's mercy) then the critical point is that G-d's mercy - thought it pays for the demands of justice  - It cannot save someone from their continuing desires.  We know that the desire of our heart (the core of what defines us - not the organ circulating our blood) is who we are - thus G-d's mercy cannot change us if we refuse to partake of it.  And we cannot permanently or completely partake unless or until sin has no place in us.  This is a process and I am not sure that this process is completed while we are mortal and prior to our physical death.

I would like to think I have turned to G-d but I realize this is not a one and done proposition but a journey.   You may think you are done with sin - but I know I still struggle.  I am not excited with the prospect that anyone struggling with sin when they die will be treated as an enemy of G-d.  That may be pleasing to you but for me - I do not plan to brag about my perfect goodness and turning completely from sin - rather my plan is the beg for mercy.

Quote

What I find pleasing and enlightening is that God keeps extending his mercy to us while 
we still have an ability to turn to him.  After a certain point (possibly judgment day), 
a person will either be saved or lost.  God still loves that person, but unfortunately 
they chose to remain unsaved.

Again - I think you are correct - up until the final judgment, I believe we can repent.  But I see the final judgment a little differently.  I believe we will tell G-d at the final judgment what we will be.  If our process and discipline do not match - I believe G-d will allow us to continue until we are ready of decide that we are really better off somewhere else.  I do not see G-d as someone that says in essence, "Ha, Ha Ha - you stupid stupid foolish person.  I know you have tried and tried but you have failed again and again - many times.  You are not perfect because you still love and enjoy chocolate cake too much - you will be damned in hell forever with murders and thieves.  Be gone and away from me forever  And please stop crying while you are still in my presents!"

Quote

Revelation 20:6 says "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: 
on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of 
Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".

Do you believe the priests saved from the second death are the same priests of 
Revelation 1:6?

Why are only those in the first resurrection considered priests?

Allow me to explain something.  Often in ancient scripture the term "first" is used.  For example - first born.  With this example many think that the first born is the oldest.  This is not correct.  The ancient meaning of first - meant the greatest or most noble.  Think of it as similar to first class on an airplane or a curse ship.  It is the best.  So is the first resurrection the best possible.  Some do not understand that the first resurrection is not so named because it comes before the others (even though it does) - but because it is the best and most glorious.  It is the same resurrection to glory as was the resurrection of Christ.  Those of the first resurrection will, "be like him" and "will see him as he is".  These are not my words but the words and promise of scripture.

 

The Traveler

[Jonah]

On 11/15/2020 at 6:57 PM, Traveler said:

Thanks for your response and your opinion.  It is not so different from mine.

You're welcome.  We have similarities from time to time.
 

Quote

I am not excited with the prospect that anyone struggling with sin when they die will be treated 
as an enemy of G-d.  That may be pleasing to you but for me - I do not plan to brag about my 
perfect goodness and turning completely from sin - rather my plan is the beg for mercy.

You misunderstood what I wrote previously.  I think that someone who dies without repenting 
and accepting Christ's atonement has died as an enemy of God since he has rejected God's 
mercy.   I would say that all unregenerated people are the enemies of God (the children of 
wrath, Ephesians 2:1-3)

The wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience (Colossians 3:5-6). The wrath of God
will also be on display in the future (Revelation 15:1,7; 16:1).  This will not be pleasing
for those on the receiving end but unfortunately it happens.

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, Jonah said:

You're welcome.  We have similarities from time to time.
 

You misunderstood what I wrote previously.  I think that someone who dies without repenting 
and accepting Christ's atonement has died as an enemy of God since he has rejected God's 
mercy.   I would say that all unregenerated people are the enemies of God (the children of 
wrath, Ephesians 2:1-3)

The wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience (Colossians 3:5-6). The wrath of God
will also be on display in the future (Revelation 15:1,7; 16:1).  This will not be pleasing
for those on the receiving end but unfortunately it happens.

In general the biggest problem I have discussing this particular topic with those of religious persuasion is that they always think the sinners, unrepentant and the disobedience are never them but are always some other guy.  I find this kind of thinking quite ironic because those type of other guys are probably not reading these scriptures.  In short I find it hard to comprehend that such scriptures were written exclusively  to those that never read scripture.  Jesus taught that just thinking about committing a sin (for example looking upon someone with lust) is a sin that needs repentance.  So my question is - how can someone believe they have repented when they are still thinking about any sin?

I do not care about some other guy - how can anyone, especially me, stand before G-d and declare myself repentant and obedient to everything I have been asked or commanded when I know I have sinned and fallen short?  Like the rich young man, do not we all lack something?  How can someone say that they accept Christ's atonement while they are still thinking of some sin?  You may believe that you do not lack anything - which makes me wonder why you are sill a mortal?  Generally I am inclined to believe that anyone that sincerely believes that they no longer need to repent of anything and do not pretend to accept the atonement - are likely to be someone most in need of it - maybe they have the exact problem the scriptures are talking about????  And this is why it shows up in the very scriptures they read.  So how can I, knowing that there are still one or two (or even a hundred) little things that are undone rationalize that I have accepted the atonement? - how then can I blame anyone else for what they have left undone - especially when they are ignorant and I know better because I believe in the atonement of Christ?  How then, can anyone honestly say they are not an enemy of G-d? 

One last thought - at the last supper Jesus told his closest followers (who he called Apostles) that one would betray him.  One would think that it was obviously Judas - with all the problems Judas was having.  Plus these were all apostles that more than anyone believed Jesus was the Christ.  But not one of them thought it was someone else - rather they asked, "L-rd is it I?"

 

The Traveler

[Jonah]

On 11/17/2020 at 7:07 PM, Traveler said:

One last thought - at the last supper Jesus told his closest followers (who he called Apostles) that one would betray him.  One would think that it was obviously Judas - with all the problems Judas was having.  Plus these were all apostles that more than anyone believed Jesus was the Christ.

I wonder if Judas really believed deep down that Jesus was the Christ. If he did, would he really
have betrayed him for some pieces of silver?   I don't think the other disciples knew about Judas'
intentions.

[Traveler]

On 11/20/2020 at 10:30 AM, Jonah said:

I wonder if Judas really believed deep down that Jesus was the Christ. If he did, would he really
have betrayed him for some pieces of silver?   I don't think the other disciples knew about Judas'
intentions.

The reason I brought up the last supper and Judas is that whenever I talk to someone of religious nature about being saved or damned (and I can say this without exception) they always think they will be saved and someone else will be damned.  I wanted to draw a contrast between the average believer in G-d and the Apostles (that thought deep down, that they were not worthy).  

As for Judas - I am not sure that anyone knows his motives.  Perhaps he did believe Jesus was the Christ and he intended to take matters unto himself and prove it to everyone by delivering Jesus into the hands of evil men.   That in doing so, Judas was sure mere mortals were no match for the "Son of G-d".  I believe that Judas had a change of heart and tried distance himself from what unfolded - and when he discovered that he could not - he took his own life.  It would seem that what happened was not close what Judas thought would happen.   I sometimes wonder if most others, when they fail to do the right thing - think nothing much of it - that it is not big deal and not to worry because G-d will forgive them.  

When considering justice - usually it is believed that the more a person knows what is right - the worse it is for them when they fail to do it.  But in most of Christianity it seems that the less a person understand about G-d the more they are guilty and worthy to be punished by a unmerciful G-d that only gives mercy to those that know better????

 

The Traveler

[Jonah]

18 hours ago, Traveler said:

When considering justice - usually it is believed that the more a person knows what is right - the worse it is for them when they fail to do it.  But in most of Christianity it seems that the less a person understand about G-d the more they are guilty and worthy to be punished by a unmerciful G-d that only gives mercy to those that know better????

I don't know what most of Christianity you are referring to, but I would stay with the scriptures
to support any teachings about the justice of God and his mercy.  In one particular example, I
don't see God extending any mercy to those in Revelation 14:9-11.

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, Jonah said:

I don't know what most of Christianity you are referring to, but I would stay with the scriptures
to support any teachings about the justice of God and his mercy.  In one particular example, I
don't see God extending any mercy to those in Revelation 14:9-11.

I do not know any person that qualifies for the reference in Revelation 14:9-11.  I do not doubt that there is such a being or beings.  I have talked directly to a fellow that claimed to worship the devil - but the more I talked to him the more I was certain he was confused about a lot concerning religion and did not qualify for what is talked about in the Book of Revelation.  I have never met anyone that I thought was beyond G-d's mercy.  Perhaps you have someone in mind?  But like I made reference to before - I have herd many talk about such things but never have I met someone that thought they deserve that kind of thing.

For all I know - this may reference Lucifer and that part of heaven that followed him.

 

The Traveler

[Jonah]

On 11/23/2020 at 11:50 PM, Traveler said:

I have never met anyone that I thought was beyond G-d's mercy.  Perhaps you have someone in mind?

I have never met these beings, but I was thinking about those who are considered to be the one-third of
Heavenly Father's spirit children who rejected his plan of salvation. I think these are classified as the sons
of perdition, destined for outer darkness.