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The election

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2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Opps...  Thanks for the correction.  For some reason I thought it was the 20th

Meh, it happens.  In fairness, there are some in the conservative circles that are claiming it isn't _really_ done, because the House _could_ choose not to certify that electoral college.  The House won't vote on that until 6 Jan, I believe. 

Rejecting the electoral vote, if I understand correctly, would require a sponsor in the House and in the Senate, as well as majority votes in both chambers. So doesn't seem likely, but the most DedicatedToTheCause (TM) are saying that's the only vote that matters.  Of course, most of them were saying the Electoral College vote was the only one that mattered when they thought they would see swing states with Republican legislatures send their own electors.  Seems like the "what really matters" goal posts keep moving....

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11 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I'm bothered by those who think Trump is doing something fundamentally wrong with his challenges

I don't know that he's "fundamentally wrong." However, he's being a sore loser, unpresidential, stirring up unnecessary anger and conspiracy theories, and very much putting himself before all else. He's not being illegal, nor going against any official rules. He is being classless. Put simply, he's not ending well. I'm not angry at Trump. He did far better for Christians than we expected. I just find this last chapter disappointing.

Edited by prisonchaplain

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Just now, prisonchaplain said:

I don't know that he's "fundamentally wrong." However, he's being a sore loser, unpresidential, stirring up unnecessary anger and conspiracy theories, and very much putting himself before all else. He's not being illegal, nor going against any official rules. He is being classless. Put simply, he's not ending well. I'm not angry at Trump. He did far better than we expected. I just find this last chapter disappointing.

All accusations he had leveled against him back when he ran the first time.. so nothing new there.

It does appear he is out of time to Gain the Presidency.  I do not think the House is going to challenge the College vote and I do not think the Courts will reverse it now...  However I do not mind him continuing because and much as we are mortal and fraud will happen...  I'm not ok with ignoring it, and his selfish interest are aligned with dealing with it at the moment.

 

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27 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Rejecting the electoral vote, if I understand correctly, would require a sponsor in the House and in the Senate, as well as majority votes in both chambers. So doesn't seem likely, but the most DedicatedToTheCause (TM) are saying that's the only vote that matters.  Of course, most of them were saying the Electoral College vote was the only one that mattered when they thought they would see swing states with Republican legislatures send their own electors.  Seems like the "what really matters" goal posts keep moving....

I think it's necessary to point out that a lot of Dems were saying these exact same things in regard to the Electoral College vote and Congressional certification. They kept some shred of hope that enough GOP electors and/or congresspeople would intervene to block a Trump presidency. They were mocked relentlessly for it (rightly so, perhaps) by the same people who are now using the same playbook. The key difference? Hillary conceded the election within 24 hours of election night and made no effort to contest the election result.

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The inability of the formerly united States to conduct a presidential election perceived by the vast majority of participants to be free and fair is quite puzzling and extremely surprising to this particular outsider. 

I'd argue that a vast majority of US voters DO believe that this was a free and fair election. But yes, the number of people crying foul on grounds that are shaky at best is somewhat alarming.

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9 minutes ago, Godless said:

I think it's necessary to point out that a lot of Dems were saying these exact same things in regard to the Electoral College vote and Congressional certification. They kept some shred of hope that enough GOP electors and/or congresspeople would intervene to block a Trump presidency. They were mocked relentlessly for it (rightly so, perhaps) by the same people who are now using the same playbook. The key difference? Hillary conceded the election within 24 hours of election night and made no effort to contest the election result.

:::Cough::: :::Sputter:::: Well....er...uh...you're right. I am almost radical in my support of the electoral college. Perhaps what is niggling at me about Trump's challenges is that they do undermine confidence in our slightly complicated system of elections. I would hate to see Democrats use these allegations as an excuse to transition to a simplified popular vote. I'm glad Trump was President, but have to admit that HRC was the better person in this regard.

FWIW, Had Trump conceded after the electoral college results were in, I suspect most would have forgiven his push. :::sigh:::

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10 minutes ago, Godless said:

I'd argue that a vast majority of US voters DO believe that this was a free and fair election.

Quinnipiac Poll, Dec 10, 2020

Quote

Among Democrats, 97% say there was no widespread fraud in the election, but 77% of Republicans believe there was. Among independents, 62% said there was no widespread fraud and 35% said they believe there was

 

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On 12/11/2020 at 3:17 PM, NeuroTypical said:

1 day to December 12th - the day the Supreme Court ruled on Bush v. Gore.
2 days to December 13th - the day Al Gore gave his concession speech.

I'm guessing the current thing before the SCOTUS will be shot down soon, ending Trump's hopes.   If that happens, I am hopeful next week, we'll hear a Trump concession speech.

Day 2 of "next week".   I see Mitch McConnell is welcoming President elect Biden and Vice-President elect Harris.

Recent Trump Tweet from this morning:

image.png.1ea22a9a86636db38360584495c38706.png

 

Still hopeful for a concession speech.

 

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2 hours ago, carlimac said:

So how do we feel about the Church officially congratulating " President- elect Biden and Vice-President elect Harris?  I'm feeling very ...something but it isn't warm or happy. Am I the only one? 

Now I have to leave to pick up my daughter from the airport ( carrying all those COVID-19 germs with her from BYU) so I won't be able to check back for many hours. 

I saw the Church's post and the reactions to it.

I find it confirmation that there are many in the chuch that practice idolatry.  They worship Trump as their prophet and deity and have the Republican Party as their TRUE religion.

There have been two incidents recently that seem to go hand in hand with this.

The First was when an apostle of the Lord came out and said he was speaking AS AN APOSTLE and asked (didn't command or demand, but did heavily suggest if we want to be more like the Lord) people to wear masks.

The comments that were made towards him and the statement were tantamount to calling him false, that the church was false, and that he was speaking as a man.  I may not agree with that, but I can actually see where people were coming from and wouldn't hold that against them.  We all have things we may see differently, and though I don't agree on that point, there are also many points they may not agree with me on as well.

HOWEVER...

The Church then has come out with a congratulations of Biden for being his victory.  They have done this congratulations to every president-elect in the past, many times far sooner than they did with Biden.  It is NOT an unusual thing, and something that is basically an apolitical item in that they are simply trying to be good neighbors towards the leaders of the world and the elections that are held.

The thing that alarms me, and especially when considering the comments made previously that align more towards Trumpism than anything else are the numbers of comments that called the Church fallen, false, and worse.  If the Church comes out with a third statement later on that goes against the Trumpist dialogue, and people follow Trump instead of at least withholding their statements against the Church I think that would be three strikes there where we see what their true religion is.

The thing is, the Church always has offered congratulations.  It's not something unusual or new.  This is actually a later letter of congratulations than they have made in the past in some instances.  It is no reason for people to freak out or start the type of accusations they have.  The fact that they are triggered this easily over something so normal in the way the church has done things in the past is a little (I'm not overly alarmed yet) alarming. 

I'm not saying it makes me happy (it doesn't make me sad either, it's just a press release and it normally doesn't make me feel any real feelings about it in the past or the present), but I don't see why people are flipping about something so general or typical in the Church's actions.

It's like suddenly getting upset because the church is having conference in April.  The church traditionally ALWAYS has Conference in April, so why flip out about it when it occurs again?  The comments towards the Church over something the Church has always traditionally has done says more about those commenting in this instance (to me) than the Church itself in this instance.  I think it would be more of a break in tradition if the  Church did NOT offer congratulations.

IF, for some reason, the electoral vote is not certified and instead it goes before  Congress and Trump gets another term as President, it is possible the church would also congratulate him on his selection at a later date as well.  As such, I find it more unsettling the comments that are against the Church in recent posts because it does not align with Trumpism far more than anything the Church itself has done in regards to the current situation/turmoil in the US.

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3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

They worship Trump as their prophet and deity and have the Republican Party as their TRUE religion.

I have been saying this all along. It is really cultish, and some supporters will believe anything that comes out of the mouth of this guy. Creepy!

I didn't know people were upset about the statement given by the Church. Oh wait, I forgot they can only give one to congratulate Trump. The nerve!

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6 hours ago, Godless said:

 

I'd argue that a vast majority of US voters DO believe that this was a free and fair election. But yes, the number of people crying foul on grounds that are shaky at best is somewhat alarming.

It's that phenomenon of people seeming to exist in  "alternate universes".  Where are you getting your info? Did you not see or hear about the huge rally again FOR Trump last weekend in DC? Are you not aware of the polls that have been taken on this? At least 70% of Republicans and even some Democrats believe there was wide spread fraud. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/09/republicans-free-fair-elections-435488

Might be time to step outside your own bubble to see what other people really think.

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40 minutes ago, carlimac said:

It's that phenomenon of people seeming to exist in  "alternate universes".  Where are you getting your info? Did you not see or hear about the huge rally again FOR Trump last weekend in DC? Are you not aware of the polls that have been taken on this? At least 70% of Republicans and even some Democrats believe there was wide spread fraud. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/09/republicans-free-fair-elections-435488

Might be time to step outside your own bubble to see what other people really think.

Yes, I've seen the polls like the one that @NeedleinAreferenced. Here's what it showed. A majority of Republicans believe that the election was fraudulent. A majority of Americans do not. It's important to remember that, left or right, the loudest members of society rarely represent the majority of Americans. It would appear that, contrary to what he believed, Trump didn't have the support of the "silent majority".Screenshot_20201215-144530_Chrome.thumb.jpg.a3961dbb9315b4e53206c5e10913a0a5.jpg

 

Edited by Godless

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11 hours ago, carlimac said:

It's that phenomenon of people seeming to exist in  "alternate universes".  Where are you getting your info? Did you not see or hear about the huge rally again FOR Trump last weekend in DC? Are you not aware of the polls that have been taken on this? At least 70% of Republicans and even some Democrats believe there was wide spread fraud. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/09/republicans-free-fair-elections-435488

Might be time to step outside your own bubble to see what other people really think.

It is pretty systematic of the Democratic/Liberal party.

Historically the Democratic and Republican parties have be roughly equal, swapping around the Presidency, and House and Senate Majorities.

And Historically the Democratic party have tried to lay claim to the racial and other minorities...  Trying to guilt the truly "Vast" majority into caring about the injustices they suffer and the complaints they have.

This makes it very hypocritical of them to treat the Republican membership as if they do not exist and their concerns are irrelevant.  For proof of this behavior I present the existence of Fox News as evidence.  When the largely Democratic/Liberal big news orgs started ignoring half their market, market force dictated that some one would step in and fill the void.  Thus Fox News is symptom of the largely Democratic/Liberal big news systematic neglect.

The numbers do not lie.  Most of the Republicans think there was fraud, Republicans make of of roughly half the population.  This is a injustice (even if you think it is only their minds) that affects more people then all the racial and LGBQT (Or whatever the name is currently) issues.

Yet despite this he says "Vast" majority does not think there was fraud, and the only way this comment make any sense is if for him Republican lives do not matter.

While the Democratic/Liberal parties are celebrating the removal or Trump, they fundamentally misunderstand that Trump was not the cause whose removal fixes things.  He was and is a symptom.  Since the root cause still exists and has not been dealt with, it will simply manifest another way  

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I'll be out for a while but wanted to address one item before I go as it relates to American's belief of widespread voter fraud.

1. 35% of GOP voters didn't believe the 2020 election was free and fair before the election.
2. 70-77% of Republicans now say they don’t believe the 2020 election was free and fair

So, why the change?
Some would like to lazily dismiss this change to the mindless Trumpling sheeple, holding Trump up as a demi-god, believing anything he utters.  I don't doubt that their will be some who fall into this category. Sheeple occur on both sides of the aisle, Dem & Rep.

Instead, I would attribute it more to the Republican's willingness/desire to actually watch the evidence presented during the 40+ hrs of legislative hearings that took place.
I'm not sure how many Democrats cared to invest time into hearing the actual evidence first hand, if I had to guess, I would say very few. Each of us here can ask ourselves, "Did I actually watch any significant portion of the hearings... beyond internet memes, SNL skits, headlines and cherry picked snippets?"

With the MSM suppressing the evidence that was presented, those caught in the MSM bubble would have little reason to believe there was widespread fraud.
The MSM says there was nothing to see, their guy 'won'... life carries on for the left.

In contrast, take every voting American and sit them down to watch some meaningful portion of the hearings (evidence, questioning & rebuttals)...................then take the poll again. Let's see what happens then.

Of the people who don't believe their was widespread voter fraud, how many of them are victims of the MSM/Big Tech?

Edited by NeedleinA

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