Guest Scott

The election

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Guest Scott
6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The Constitution is inherently racist.

(Please see the post before this one two as I broke it up into two parts).

Can you show me?  

What I have heard, which is correct, is that during the time period when slavery was allowed, the Constitution was sometimes used to justify slavery and increase power of slave states.  This actually was true of the time however.  Our own Church history goes into this.  I really like the dramatized Church history on the subject too.  If you haven't heard it, I'd recommend the listen.

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The Constitution IS The PROBLEM, not the solution.
 

Can you show me?  Keep in mind that in my post I gave specific links, quotes, and actions from Republican lawmakers themselves.  I'd also appreciate direct quotes from the "multiple planks in the Democrat platform spit straight into the face of the Constitution" that you can provide.

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Get rid of private property.

I haven't heard any Democrats say that.  Show me.  I'm listening.

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Allow the Federal Government to keep people at home indefinitely and not allow them to leave their homes.

This is a tough one.  Quarantines have been implemented throughout the history of this country.  The CDC says the following:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

The federal government derives its authority for isolation and quarantine from the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

I'm sorry, but I don't have an answer for this.  

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The Federal Government under Democrat leadership should have power to arrest anyone for not wearing a mask. 

Have the Federal Government ever done this?  Which lawmakers support the Feds doing this?  I don't know; just asking.

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 But Republicans should stay out of local/state riots even when they vandalize Federal Property.

Anyone vandalizing public property should be prosecuted.  Allowing huge gatherings of people protesting, but not allowing others is indeed wrong.  We are in agreement here.

PS, as far as vandalizing Federal Property goes, Trump pardoned those who staged the armed takeover and valndalism of the Mueller Wildlife Refuge.  Millions of dollars of property was destroyed, including a lot of priceless historic artifacts.  And yet Trump himself pardoned them.  

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We should get rid of the Electoral College.

I haven't seen any legal push to abolish the Electoral College, but I agree with you that I have heard people say that.

In Colorado we just voted to give the electoral votes to the national popular vote winner.  This doesn't abolish the college,  but dictates how the electorals are decided.  

I voted against the measure. It think it was the wrong choice. I voted against several of the "Democrat measures". 

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Defund the police.  The "actual police" are not a part of the Constitution.  But this movement also affects Sheriffs offices, which ARE a part of the Constitution.

I agree that it is a foolish idea.  Lawmakers that have come out and supported it say that it doesn't mean lawlessness, but that the police will be replaced with something else.  With what though?  We need the police.  

While the loudest people might have been from the left, several of the right were saying the same thing, especially during the lockdowns.  See what the protesters against the lockdowns were saying as well as the Bundy Clan.

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Religion should be pushed to the far bottom of all freedoms (if honored at all) rather than honored as the FIRST freedom itemized in the Bill of Rights.

I kind of see the opposite.  Most of the Democrats I know believe that anyone should be able to practice their religion and long as you aren't forcing it on others.

I see a lot of the opposite from the right.  For example, people saying that "We are a Christian Nation" (we are a nation where anyone can practice their religion) or that Muslims and atheists don't belong in this country.

There are several (anti-constitutional) laws in the books that say that atheists are not allowed to run for public office.  Are there any laws in the books that say Christians or LDS people can't run for public office? 

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Freedom of speech is only allowed if we agree with it.  Otherwise we'll demonetize and/or cancel you.  At the very least we'll call you a racist or homophobe, or whatever.

OK, show me.

Freedom of speech only applies to the government censoring your speech.  Which lawmakers have done this (besides Trump in my example)? 

I know hate speech and yelling "fire" in a crowded theater have been challenged.

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Judges should be able to (effectively) legislate from the bench.  In California the State Supreme Court "interpreted" that an AMENDMENT to the STATE CONSTITUTION was "unconstitutional" (because they didn't agree with it politically) when it was passed by a 65% majority in the state.  All liberal SCOTUS justices agree with this mentality.

I don't know much about what you are referring to, so I'll research it.

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Get rid of any national boundaries.

I haven't heard this.  Can you show me?

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The UN, Globalism, international culture/opinion/customs/ should have power over the US Government

Personally I think that we should work with other nations, including through the UN.   Since the UN was created war has become much less common (even though we have stuck our dirty little fingers all over the place).  I do not consider the UN to be some demon as some of the conservatives do. I can't see how this applies to the Constitution though.

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The Constitution is up to interpretation by anyone at any time.  In other words, it can mean anything we want it to mean.  And when it means what we WANT it to mean, THEN it is the correct interpretation.

I don't disagree and see a lot of that from both sides; more from Republicans.  

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 Then you have the BLM list of goals that they have since scrubbed from their website because of the backlash.

Black lives do matter, but yes they need a better group as a platform.  

Missed this one earlier:

 

 

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The Forteenth Amenment defines citizenship and clearly says that anyone born in the US is a citizen.   The Republicans want to change this.

No, it doesn't

 

Why do some of the Republicans want to change the wording then?  It has been proposed.

Here is the actual wording:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

I'm not asking what is fair and what the Constitution should say, but what it does say.

The argument some are using is the phrase and subject to the jurisdiction thereof and some have claimed that this excludes illegal alien's children.  I can actually see how it could be interpeted that way, but for a long time (more than a century) the Supreme Court has interpeted the phrase to mean that children born to illegal aliens are still subject to the laws of this country and are thus citizens.  As far as I know the Supreme Court hasn't interpeted this differently (at least not yet).

Regardless, some of the Republican lawmakers have done more than disagree with the Supreme Court decision, but have said that the amendment should be done away with completely or changed.

As an example, Lindsey Gram has said the following (exact quote):

"We should change our Constitution and say if you come here illegally and you have a child, that child's automatically not a citizen".

Which Democrat lawmakers are currently proposing to change the Constitution?

Edited by Scott

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Guest Scott

Can I just get my account deleted?  I admit I did get out of hand today.   Non-republicans are constantly referred to as evil, demons, haters of America, muderders, etc. on this forum and it does get old.    It never ends and I shouldn't have gotten angry and shot back.  Mormon Gator was right about this forum. 

I hold no grudges towards anyone here, but no longer want to participate until the spirt of the site changes.   I could just leave for a while, but if the account was deleted, I wouldn't be tempted to post or check back in.

 

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30 minutes ago, Scott said:

Can I just get my account deleted?  I admit I did get out of hand today.   Non-republicans are constantly referred to as evil, demons, haters of America, muderders, etc. on this forum and it does get old.    It never ends and I shouldn't have gotten angry and shot back.  Mormon Gator was right about this forum. 

I hold no grudges towards anyone here, but no longer want to participate until the spirt of the site changes.   I could just leave for a while, but if the account was deleted, I wouldn't be tempted to post or check back in.

 

You can PM Pam, Scott.  Personally, I’d hate to see you go; but it’s your call.  I apologize if I’ve contributed to an environment that made you feel unwelcome.

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16 hours ago, Vort said:

Many of the Democrats I'm personally familiar with do not love America. They consider America to be the greatest threat in the world today. They find the very idea of American border integrity to be antithetical to their woke morality. The literally believe that anyone who thinks it should be illegal to murder a fetus for the sake of convenience should be forcibly silenced and not allowed to voice such an opinion, on pain of depriving them of their liberty. So I rate your claim as Mostly False.

If we take exaggerations to this degree, should we not also include the idea that many Trumpers (who claim to be Republicans, not that they necessarily fit the mold, but at least claim to be) literally believes anyone who doesn't want to murder the elderly for sake of convenience are out of line and should be forcibly silenced and not allowed to control what happens on their own private (stores which require shirt, shoes, and a mask actually do NOT fall under the realm of government public property) property on pain of depriving them of their liberty?

It can work both ways when tossing around wild claims...

Edit:  And to be clear, I do not believe EITHER of the claims above are actually accurate or the truth.  BOTH extremes of both sides like to toss around these arguments though, rather than trying to actually answer the problems the other side has with their issues.  For example, those who are pro-abortion have various issues, one being the ability for medical professionals to make decisions that can help a woman's health.  Normally the conservatives focus more on those who choose elective abortion as a type of Birth control, but that does not describe all those who are for allowing abortions.  Many actually take a stance closer to what the Church has as it's stance (in cases of rape, abortion, or incest, or where the mother's life may be in danger) and think that the Republican party is against abortion in any instance (not true and a misunderstanding on their part, but many Republicans never actually explain this to Democrats and others who hold the stance above regarding medical issues).

On the otherside of the coin, the example of those who do not wish to wear a mask also have concerns that this is the first step in a top down dictation where governors and the government become more tyrannical and use this ability to dictate that people must wear masks without congressional oversight or approval to enact more strict and other laws.  It starts off small in requiring people to wear something under the claims of safety, but what starts off small can pave the way for bigger and more aggressive things like ruling when and where people can gather or meet (already happening under guidelines in many areas) and then jumping off of that to infringe on Constitutional freedoms such as the right to bear arms or the freedom to practice their religion or other such things.  They have this fear and concern, but it's not something that Democrats are really addressing either except to mock them for not wearing masks.

Both sides have concerns, but neither side really wants to address the concerns, instead trying to make all of them out to be like the far extremists of the parties, rather than seeing there are MANY that have valid concerns and are not as extreme as they are being portrayed.

7 hours ago, Scott said:

Can I just get my account deleted?  I admit I did get out of hand today.   Non-republicans are constantly referred to as evil, demons, haters of America, muderders, etc. on this forum and it does get old.    It never ends and I shouldn't have gotten angry and shot back.  Mormon Gator was right about this forum. 

I hold no grudges towards anyone here, but no longer want to participate until the spirt of the site changes.   I could just leave for a while, but if the account was deleted, I wouldn't be tempted to post or check back in.

 

It would be a shame to see you go.  I DO believe their was voter fraud in Georgia (especially perhaps Gwinnett county, as that's a Trump stronghold in the state, less than 25% African American, and perhaps one of the biggest region for Trump supporters...so...seeing they said it went blue.  It just...something seems very off to me...which is why someone like me might start to listen to the claims of fraud or at a minimum, Republican voter disenfranchisement, going on.  note: this isn't the first time it went blue, but the last elections are something that are making people wonder as well.  It would have to be in the machine though, as to vote you need a state ID in Gwinnett).

However, I am NOT a Republican (nor am I democrat for that matter), nor did I support Trump or vote for him.  It is good to hear voices from many different angles and I think it sad whenever anyone decides to leave the forums as it diminishes us all.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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8 hours ago, Scott said:

Can I just get my account deleted?  I admit I did get out of hand today.   Non-republicans are constantly referred to as evil, demons, haters of America, muderders, etc. on this forum and it does get old.    It never ends and I shouldn't have gotten angry and shot back.  Mormon Gator was right about this forum. 

I hold no grudges towards anyone here, but no longer want to participate until the spirt of the site changes.   I could just leave for a while, but if the account was deleted, I wouldn't be tempted to post or check back in.

 

I've never understood the "can I get my account deleted" requests.  Just don't log in, delete the bookmark, and forget about the place.  I've done that will countless forums that I choose not to participate in.

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17 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

On this business of “loving America”, I’ll engage with one possible controversial broad over-generalization, by offering another even more-controversial broad over-generalization:

Republicans love America the way a newlywed man loves his wife:  for what she is, and which he hopes she will eternally remain.

Democrats love America the way a newlywed woman loves her husband:  for what he may become, if properly managed.

I like this (even if it might be an broad over-generalization)

The problem isn't the Love or what we (America) might become...  Its the "if properly managed" bit....  The Democrats management style is largely compulsory.. more laws more regulations more restriction on freedom.

That style simply can not, will not work.  We see this on personal levels, we see this on the national level, we see this in our scriptures on how the Lord tells us things should be ran

And don't get me wrong...Republicans also have their compulsory areas... and they largely fail as well.

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Here's a book everyone should read:

 

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"There are certain basic principles regarding the proper role of government. If principles are correct, then they can be applied to any specific proposal with confidence... The true statesman values principle above popularity, and works to create popularity for those political principles which are wise and just."

 

 

https://www.properroleofgovernment.com

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I figure when President Trump offers someone a job, he lets them know it's temporary.  I also am guessing he gives them the option on how to leave, on friendly terms, or with Trump booting them out the door and ranting about them on Twitter.  That way, people can work for Trump and not get type cast as a Trump supporter, if they so wish.

I have no clue if this wild guess has any substance to it or not, but it sure sounds reasonable to me.  Perhaps time and memoirs will tell.

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I should have.

I should have watched President Nelson's message when it aired last Friday. If I had I would have behaved different during that day. Among other things, this hit home especially in light of this particular thread. Part of President Nelson's prayer:

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We thank Thee for the leaders of nations and others who strive to lift us. We pray for relief from political strife. Wilt Thou bless us with a healing spirit that unites us despite our differences.

 

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Fro mmy scripture reading this morning: Titus, 3: 1- 4

1 Put them in mind to be asubject to bprincipalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

2 To aspeak evil of no man, to be bno brawlers, but gentle, shewing all cmeekness unto all men.

3 For we ourselves also were asometimes foolish, bdisobedient, deceived, serving divers clusts and pleasures, living in dmalice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

and verse 9

9 But avoid afoolish questions, and genealogies, and bcontentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 

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