Where did it happen


Emmanuel Goldstein
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Is anyone else bothered when the Church says they are neutral on the location of the Book of Mormon, but then every publication of the church has paintings of Meso-American locations? I am really tired of the hypocrisy. Also, BYU is full of died in the wool Meso-nuts like John Sorenson. Honestly, stop the double speak.

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-february-2016/2016-02-15-mormons-miraculous-book-eng.pdf?lang=eng

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There is a big difference between the Church taking an Official position...  And members (including artists and leaders) having and expressing an opinion on the subject.  The church has declined to so the former but it does not restrict its members (even those in leadership) from doing the latter.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

every publication of the church has paintings of Meso-American locations? I am really tired of the hypocrisy

So... would you prefer that it was some cultureless depiction? Everyone wearing grey clothing while walking around an open grass field with variation of grass species from across the world to avoid picking any specific scenario?

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5 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Is anyone else bothered when the Church says they are neutral on the location of the Book of Mormon, but then every publication of the church has paintings of Meso-American locations? I am really tired of the hypocrisy. Also, BYU is full of died in the wool Meso-nuts like John Sorenson. Honestly, stop the double speak.

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-february-2016/2016-02-15-mormons-miraculous-book-eng.pdf?lang=eng

A couple of years ago I took a vacation with my wife to the middle east.  I came away from that experience with the realization that few (if any) artists have ever visited the Holy Land.  The artwork of which I had become so accustomed to growing up - obviously is not accurate.  Having seen a tree in the Middle East with white fruit that is called the Tree of Life - I will never be able to look at artwork of the tree of life and not be greatly disappointed.  However, this is the engineer and scientist inside me speaking.  My father was a very accomplished artist.  I grew up very disconnected to the house hold of an artist.  And so I would pass on some things I know of but was too OCD to move beyond myself.

My father explained to me that art is not a picture of things but an expression of something the artist intends to communicate.   If we look closely at an oil painting of a landscape with a tree - we will discover that the leaves of the tree are patterned brush strokes that may look like leaves from a distance but are mere blobs of oil paint up close.   The same with the bark on the tree - and so on throughout the painting.  A good art critic can identify the brush strokes in a painting as well as a forensic scientist can discern a finger print.  Part of the impressionistic style is to convey subjective concepts rather than an exact replica of a picture.    

All this is not a new idea of art expression.  Even the ancient pictoglyph on a cave wall was intended to convey something more than an exact detailed picture.  And so I will end with something my father said to me many times.  "If you do not like that artwork of others you are free to create your own.   If you lack the skills or just refuse to produce what your mind's eye sees - is it not hypocrisy to criticize the work of others?"

 

The Traveler

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Never confuse artistic depictions, for canon scripture.   This is my favorite bit of church art:  Two Thousand Young Warriors, by Arnold Friberg.  It's in our primary, sunday school, priesthood, and Teachings of the Presidents manuals, it's hanging on some of our ward building walls.  

Two Thousand Young Warriors (Two Thousand Stripling Warriors)

Just look at all the dubious doctrinal liberties taken in this thing!

- Bearded Caucasian Helaman looking like a Legatus Legionis.
- Riding a horse, something never mentioned in scripture.
- Lamanites = Native Americans + 20 extra lbs of muscle. (Friberg was big on muscles.)
- The ceremonial banners come from Charlton Heston's The Ten Commandments, representing the 12 tribes of Israel (Friberg was involved in that production too).
- Jade bracer, 'cuz archaeology tells us they had Jade in Mesoamerica.
- Look at the width of that guy's dagger scabbard - meant to imply an obsidian weapon ('cuz arcaeology!).  The hilts, and the other scabbards, imply steel (because that's actually in the scriptures).

Yeah, no really folks - don't turn over your understanding of what things must have looked like, to artists.  They'll always get something wrong.   And don't judge artists harshly either, humans just plain old do better at teaching and learning when we have pictures to look at, which means the church has got to pay someone to draw something.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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I don't think Church art is meant to be taken 100% accurate.

Here's some that I can think of.

Artwork showing ears of corn in Joseph's dream about the seven years of famine is inaccurate because "indian corn"/maize came from the Americas.  In the Bible "corn" is wheat, not maize.

King Noah has a pet jaguar sitting next to him.  This was very unlikely to happen.

The biggest one of all is that Jesus looks like a white European.  This is the norm in LDS and a lot of other Christain art as well.

Even artwork showing Joseph Smith is highly inaccurate and we have actual photos, paintings, and drawings of Joseph when he was alive.  In recent decades pictures have made him look a lot more modern.

Edited by Scott
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13 hours ago, Fether said:

So... would you prefer that it was some cultureless depiction? Everyone wearing grey clothing while walking around an open grass field with variation of grass species from across the world to avoid picking any specific scenario?

I guess what bothered me with the paining in the article is the implication that the battle at Cumorah happened in Meso-America when we know that it happened in New York. The early prophets of this dispensation were very clear on this. The other stuff may have happened anywhere from south America to Canada, but the battle happened at the Hill in New York. There is no evidence that it happened anywhere else. I know I will get a bunch of grief for this statement. I would be ok if the art also reflected other places more often. But, it seems that the magazine staff will only accept artwork of Meso-America. I don't remember Moroni saying he ever carried a spear make of obsidian. Also, where is the reference to step pyramids? Having a step structure for a temple is against the law of Moses, they were to use ramps because steps allow you to see up someone's robe. Not Kosher.

Maybe I am ranting a little, but it is really bothering me that we allow only one theory to be taught, but also say we are "location agnostic."

Edited by Emmanuel Goldstein
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15 hours ago, estradling75 said:

There is a big difference between the Church taking an Official position...  And members (including artists and leaders) having and expressing an opinion on the subject.  The church has declined to so the former but it does not restrict its members (even those in leadership) from doing the latter.

 

 

Why is it pushed so heavily in the magazines then? Why don't they commission art that reflects all beliefs?

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To add to my post earlier:

Artwork of Joseph Smith painted or drawn during his lifetime:

Joseph Smith Drawing by American School

Joseph Smith preaching Drawing by American School

Rare Mormon document collection for sale on eBay | KSL.com

640px-Joseph_Smith%2C_Jr._profile_by_Bathsheba_Smith_circa_1843.jpg?1605541624080

Mormon founder Joseph Smith had as many as 40 wives, church says - The  Boston Globe

The Joseph Smith you see in Sunday School and on the church walls in recent times:

Joseph Smith

Joseph Smith the Prophet Saw God and Jesus in First Vision

 

Edited by Scott
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9 hours ago, Traveler said:

"If you do not like that artwork of others you are free to create your own.   If you lack the skills or just refuse to produce what your mind's eye sees - is it not hypocrisy to criticize the work of others?"

The Traveler

I am calling the magazine editors, that only choose the Meso artwork as being hypocritical. They do not seem to ever choose anything else. I found this beautiful piece years ago in the Conference Center and I have not seen it in the Ensign yet. Maybe I missed it. I just want some variation. I am so sick of seeing Aztec or Mayan pyramids in every, single, issue. The Mayan high point was after the Nephites were gone, and the Aztec were almost 900 years later. 

cocco-the-waters-of-mormon.jpg

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Speaking personally as the "where did things actually happen" aspect and the importance of that--

We don't know American locations of things.  But there are some fairly solid guesses as to the Middle East locations of things.  I have a lot of family members that are really into that sort of thing, and taking tours over there.  My sister literally majored in this subject at BYU, doing extensive research and spending years in the Middle East.  She's extremely passionate, and loves to bring back photos of places of places that she talks about, and it's a big thing for her.

For me though.... such photos do nothing for me.  Literally nothing.  Through my sister I'm aware of how inaccurate my family's Nativity set is (for example), but seeing a rendition more accurate to historian guesses.... does nothing for me.  It just doesn't matter.  Visiting 1800's North American sites we do know where things happen does... nothing for me.  Me & my testimony just isn't moved by how historically accurate my Nativity set is or knowing the exact coordinates of the Sacred Grove.  

 

Now I totally respect my sister's drive for historical accuracy.  She'll be thrilled when specific Book of Mormon locations are revealed, and I'll be very happy because she's so happy.  Both she and I walk by faith where we at points see into the glass darkly.  But they are different perspectives. 

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19 minutes ago, Scott said:

I don't think Church art us meant to be taken 100% accurate.

Here's some that I can think of.

Artwork showing ears of corn in Joseph's dream about the seven years of famine is inaccurate because "indian corn"/maize came from the Americas.  In the Bible "corn" is wheat, not maize.

King Noah has a pet jaguar sitting next to him.  This was very unlikely to happen.

The biggest one of all is that Jesus looks like a white European.  This is the norm in LDS and a lot of other Christain art as well.

Even artwork showing Joseph Smith is highly inaccurate and we have actual paintings and drawings of Joseph when he was alive.  In recent decades pictures have made him look a lot more modern.

I like this Jesus: 

Jesus.png

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3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Speaking personally as the "where did things actually happen" aspect and the importance of that--

We don't know American locations of things.  But there are some fairly solid guesses as to the Middle East locations of things.  I have a lot of family members that are really into that sort of thing, and taking tours over there.  My sister literally majored in this subject at BYU, doing extensive research and spending years in the Middle East.  She's extremely passionate, and loves to bring back photos of places of places that she talks about, and it's a big thing for her.

For me though.... such photos do nothing for me.  Literally nothing.  Through my sister I'm aware of how inaccurate my family's Nativity set is (for example), but seeing a rendition more accurate to historian guesses.... does nothing for me.  It just doesn't matter.  Visiting 1800's North American sites we do know where things happen does... nothing for me.  Me & my testimony just isn't moved by how historically accurate my Nativity set is or knowing the exact coordinates of the Sacred Grove.  

 

Now I totally respect my sister's drive for historical accuracy.  She'll be thrilled when specific Book of Mormon locations are revealed, and I'll be very happy because she's so happy.  Both she and I walk by faith where we at points see into the glass darkly.  But they are different perspectives. 

Oh, don't mistake my irritation with lack of faith. The message of the book is without a doubt, true. I just want more variety and I want people to keep their minds open to something other than the dictates of most BYU PHD's. 

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3 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Oh, don't mistake my irritation with lack of faith. The message of the book is without a doubt, true. I just want more variety and I want people to keep their minds open to something other than the dictates of most BYU PHD's. 

Oh course not!   Not remotely!  Just like my sister's interest in historical accuracy is not remotely a lack of faith thing.  I was just sharing a different perspective.  

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2 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I just want more variety and I want people to keep their minds open to something other than the dictates of most BYU PHD's. 

Heh.  BYU PHDs and artists.  Two groups of people who should never have the final say on anyone's religious beliefs.  

More variety for you:

Matt Page gets the red sash right:

image.png.56f0799cd717eeffd29c166daa8a3243.png

 

I'll always be a fan of Violent Christ:

image.thumb.png.9907c6bec67552dbfe861c638101c3f9.png

image.thumb.png.3c183f33d613d3fa54d60890a9dfd1ab.png

 

 

JK Richards Art Thou a King Then

image.thumb.png.cd72fa024c1bf79e131e4d4f3204af42.png

 

 

These are my favorite, because I'm in them (although the artist got my gender wrong):

image.png.926d0c4efe2f1f8e26dd6b6fb1442ded.png

image.png.dfa96b480ad9a7b1b9afba76439ce9fb.png

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

See, I just don't see Joseph as a ranter. 

He was.  He probably had to be.  And he had a temper.  And swore.  He had a dog that would bite other members. He got in fist fights with other church members.   He was even a bartender while being the prophet.  While prophet, he also entered a fighting competition and beat the snot out of someone so he could earn the bail money to bail money to bail Porter Rockwell out of jail.  

You are too used to seeing Sunday school artwork and not the actual church history or that which was written by the people who actually knew him.

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