Sign in to follow this  
Fether

“Even if the church was not true, I would still be a member”

Recommended Posts

Thoughts on this statement?

I personally could not subscribe to this thinking. I would live all the principles and continue to grow in the same ways I was in the church, but I would have a hard time being a member of it.
 

I would, however, have an insanely hard time putting away the scripture we have and the words of the prophets.

I will say it, the Bible is amazing and has some incredible scriptures... but it is limited when compared to the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, PoGP, and all the words of the prophets. The doctrines unique to the church would be so hard to let go of. I would likely get baptized as a Protestant Christian just to cover catholic and Protestant bases and begin my search for truth. I may end up going atheist though. It would be hard to give up so many amazing teachings for traditional Christianity. I get anxiety just thinking about it

 

QUICK CLARIFICATION:

Im not asking everyone’s plans of what they will do if the church is discovered, proven and admits to be false ... rather I am more curious about the notion of remaining a part of an organization despite realizing its falsehood and lies.

This is more of a discussion on the rational of certain outcomes of a thought experiment then a thought experiment itself.

Edited by Fether

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly.. from my perspective  it’s like any other hair brained doomsday “what if” scenario: a mega waste of time to think about. 

Now , obviously I realize that other people have different perspectives and life journey. I acknowledge that and don’t mean to down nose them at all. But that is my personal perspective. 

 

 

 

Edit: having now seen the thread that originated this one:  I go where my Savior leads.  And care very little about other paths. If Christ lead me somewhere else, there I would be. He lead me here, so here I am. 

Edited by Jane_Doe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I may be more open to the question because, like most Protestants, I know that we already left one church because, though it taught much that was true and gave us our scriptures, I ultimately did not believe the tradition of it was as inspired as scripture itself. So, if I were to find that the Assemblies of God was seriously wrong on a doctrine, I could leave it for another church, without feeling I had seriously failed my Savior. Similarly, if I were in a community that had no Assemblies of God church, I could attend a different church and still grow in the Lord.

Perhaps the largest group-example of this is the Worldwide Church of God (Herbert W. Armstrong). When Armstrong died the main branch of the church abandoned his distinctive doctrines and became a traditional evangelical movement. Ironically, one or two of the small splinter groups kept his teachings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the Church was as we define other Christian churches as having much of the truth but not all then I think we would simply find which ever church most closely resembles what we feel is right and join ourselves with it. But to say we wouldn't leave the Church even if it wasn't true is not something we could know, in my opinion, because if you take away things like actual prophets and the priesthood the Church would be drastically different. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd really like to say that I get joy out of living a righteous life.  And I do, for the most part.  But there are so many other factors at play.  I've said many times that if I thought this Church was an invention of men and not of God there would be no way that I would follow its precepts.  I would not desire to perform my calling.  I would not make covenants.  I would not even bother with going to church.  I might read my scriptures from time to time.  But I may just go fishing each Sunday.

I would probably have made a lot more money and had a business going a lot sooner than I have.  I would have had SO many temporal benefits if I hadn't come back to the Church.  I'm still at a point where I would have loved to have had more material things.  I take solace in knowing that not only have I given up a lot of it, but I also have the most awesome family EVER!!!  And it's worth it.  But the thing is that it is only worth it because of the knowledge of the eternal plan. 

If all that were not true, I'm not sure how much of all Christianity would even matter.  I'm not sure if any religion would matter. 

Yes many religions have their explanations of eternity.  All of them are necessarily incomplete.  But on the balance, I believe we have the most complete explanation that ties up the most loose ends.  It is that explanation that actually motivates me into understanding how important this life really is.

Each person will have to determine for themselves whether "that is enough knowledge to proceed" or not.  But for me, other faiths simply don't provide enough explanation of what actually happens after we die.  It would be insufficient for me to even care.  But the Plan of Salvation doesn't just provide the carrot / stick dichotomy.  It provides a purpose for all eternity. 

That is motivation.  If it were false, I would have no motivation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Honestly.. from my perspective  it’s like any other hair brained doomsday “what if” scenario: a mega waste of time to think about. 

Now , obviously I realize that other people have different perspectives and life journey. I acknowledge that and don’t mean to down nose them at all. But that is my personal perspective. 

 

 

 

Edit: having now seen the thread that originated this one:  I go where my Savior leads.  And care very little about other paths. If Christ lead me somewhere else, there I would be. He lead me here, so here I am. 

I should have put this under general discussion. The purpose of this thread was not to come up with individual plans for if the church ends up being false, but rather to address the idea of someone remaining a part of an organization despite knowing its falsehood.

Otherwise I agree. Would you ever stab your daughter? What if she is about to blow up a plane? Not a very productive conversation.

Edited by Fether

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By their fruits ye shall know them.  The question supposes that the Fruits would remain Good even if the Tree was Corrupt.

As a thought experiment the idea of staying with the Good Fruit makes all the sense in the world...  But in any practical event the Fruit can't exist without Truth at its foundation.

Even when we go outside our Faith... the Good Fruit others bring forth is based on the truth that they have.

Now one could make the case that we do not have all the truth (yet)... This seems self evident.  That does not make what we have false or a lie, it just makes it incomplete.  Which is a huge difference

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest I find a great deal of good and interest in every church I have encountered.  Likewise I have never found any person worthy of rejection - including a Satan worshiper I once encountered.  I have found that if I look hard enough for good or evil - I will find it wherever I look.  Unlike @prisonchaplain I believe doctrine to be way overrated.  I am much more concerned with covenants, discipline and "reality" than doctrine - I think the religious world is too divided over doctrine.

If it was not that I have received direct revelation concerning the True and Living G-d and His Church and Kingdom here on earth (and that these are the Last-days prior to the return of the Messiah)  - I would not consider myself religious concerning aligning myself to any current organization - especially Christianity.  I would mostly study Buddhism because it is the only religion that was mostly spread with peace rather than violence and war.  When Buddhism was introduced into China - China was at war with itself and Buddhism brought peace.  Traditional Christianity is much the opposite; not only has Traditional Christianity gone to war against itself over doctrine - it has justified starting wars and bloodshed, all in the name of a loving, compassionate, merciful and benevolent G-d against any other religion or tradition it has encountered.  Ironically this nation was founded by Christians trying to escape the tyranny of those Christians in power in their home lands - just as the initial disciples of Christ sought for relief from the Jewish society from which they had the same doctrine and scripture foundation.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, some of this question revolves around what we mean when a say "a church is true". As others ( @laronius, @prisonchaplain @estradling75) have suggested, maybe truth exists on a continuum where all churches have truth and some more than others. So, when you feel like you have learned all of the truth that Catholicism has to teach you, you split off into Protestantism. And move through various branches of Protestantism until you get all the truth from them, and so on, never truly committing to any one church. As Latter-day Saints, we like to say that we have more truth than all of the others and invite people to join us for the richest truth smorgasbord (when they are ready).

I suppose that can work, but what do you do when, as @estradling75 pointed out, you reach the end of what the LDS church can teach (because there is even more truth beyond what it teaches to learn)? Does this fit into the OP's question?

In some ways, it is interesting that this comes a day after our SS class discussed Moroni 6 and the reasons given for membership and participation in church -- nourished by the Word of God, keep them in the right way, relying on the merits of Christ, fast and pray, and so on (see Moroni 6). As I think about the OPs question, I find myself basically looking at my choices regarding these purposes. What are my best choices for being nourished by the word of God and encouraged in my desire to follow Christ? To stay in the LDS church? Find a different church (Protestant or Catholic or other)? Maybe I have reached a point of such high spiritual maturity that I don't need anyone else to provide these things for me -- I can do them all myself?

For me, even if the Church is not as true as I want it to be, it still seems to me to be the best place for me to get the benefits of church mentioned by Moroni. Others may decide differently, and I don't know what to make of those decisions, but I trust God to be able to make the best of each person's situation and that Christ's atonement still will have power in their lives and eternity. (Sounds kind of universalistic, doesn't it?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

 

I suppose that can work, but what do you do when, as @estradling75 pointed out, you reach the end of what the LDS church can teach (because there is even more truth beyond what it teaches to learn)? 

That's just it. If the doctrines of continuing revelation and personal revelation are true, which are fundamental foundation stones of our church, then there is no end to knowledge. At least not until we become like God. Damnation is always self emposed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I suppose that can work, but what do you do when, as @estradling75 pointed out, you reach the end of what the LDS church can teach (because there is even more truth beyond what it teaches to learn)? Does this fit into the OP's question?

I think it does, and I think it is a great question.

The way I see it, truth is a basis on which we live. Though we may feel that we have learned all we could from the church, it is the base of all we believe. I make it a point to study the scriptures every day because all I am and all I believe is based on the gospel.

The church does not teach everything that is Good in This world. I listen to a variety of podcasts and follow various speakers that teach me about taking care of my body, being a successful business man, healthy ha it’s, and tactics to develop those habits.

Though the church is not the foremost expert in these aspects, I do not cast them aside when studying further, rather I compare these teachings to what the church teaches. ie when I learn about intermittent fasting and I hear many suggest bullet proof coffee being a good companion with intermittent fasting, I do not follow that counsel because it goes against the base of my belief.

Now what would happen if I felt the church was wrong and had been deceitful? My base would likely move up from “The Church” to “Any principle or way of thought that makes me more excellent”. Many, if not most, of those things would still be in line with the church’s teachings, however the church itself would no longer be base of living.

I would not go out and start drinking my life away and sleeping with every woman I came across, I have learned what kind of person I want to be and that is a saintly kind... though I may no longer call it saintly should it be revealed the church is no the true church.

Edited by Fether

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I suppose that can work, but what do you do when, as @estradling75 pointed out, you reach the end of what the LDS church can teach (because there is even more truth beyond what it teaches to learn)? Does this fit into the OP's question?

As far as I could tell, I don't think estradling pointed that out at all.  Maybe he could clarify.  But to answer your question otherwise...

Some have taken the road of becoming a Snufferite or similar ideology.  And this is not without cause.  But it is still a twisted version of the truth.

We always have prayer.  We always have the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  And that is a source for ever further knowledge.  But the knowledge we obtain is for what the Lord knows is what we NEED at the time.  He wants us to get along with as little of His help as possible, to give us a chance to grow in faith.

Faith.  This is a highly misunderstood word.  We have faith as man understands it.  It is spiritual belief.  Often we're told it is that belief which motivates into action.  But in this context of what we're supposed to develop in this world, it is much much more than that.  As a man grows in life, he grows in stature.  As a spirit grows throughout eternity, he grows in faith.

When it is appropriate to learn more, the Lord will give us more.  But all too often, we are taking lightly that which we've been given already.  So, why would the Lord give us more than what we already take too lightly?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is my opinion that if your search for truth is based in doctrine - you will never find or understand the truth of the true and living G-d.  It is not ALL about doctrine.  There is doctrine related to the divine plan of salvation but the truth of G-d and His works is much much more than doctrine.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Church itself doesn't have to be true in the way that most understand it to be true (true does not necessarily mean that it carries the truth or the true gospel, it is more that it is the Lord's Church and that as such, it will not be broken by the adversary).

What matters I feel is if the gospel is true.  The Church is merely a vessel for men, a vessel designed by the Lord to carry the power of the priesthood and it's sacred ordinances to people as well as help educate us on the truths he has taught as contained in the gospel. 

So, in a way, I could say (at least how some understand it) that as long as we have the priesthood and the ordinances, the Church itself does not have to be True...at least in the way that many understand it is when they say the phrase...I know this Church is true (which is more them claiming the gospel is true...as technically, that idea or term cannot apply to an organization such as a Church...it would be like claiming a Car is true, or your street in front of your house is true, or the Classroom is true...).  It IS true, but I think it is true in the more traditional sense of an organization that is true.

I have learned for myself that the gospel is true, that Joseph Smith DID see a vision of the Lord and had power to correctly translate the Gold Plates into the Book of Mormon.  I know that he is the prophet of the Lord and that after him have come many prophets that have led the church in our modern days.  I do not need a "true" church to know these things, I do not go to the Church necessarily because it exists, but because it is there that the priesthood of the Lord is found and the ordinances essential to our salvation are given through it.  In this manner we can find exaltation as a free gift given to any who would accept it.

Quote

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;

18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—

19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—

20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;

21 That faith also might increase in the earth;

22 That mine everlasting covenant might be established;

23 That the fulness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple unto the ends of the world, and before kings and rulers.

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

29 And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.

30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;

33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

34 And again, verily I say unto you, O inhabitants of the earth: I the Lord am willing to make these things known unto all flesh;

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm fond of saying "in the end, the most valid reason to be a member of this church, is you believe God wants you to be one."

That said, I get why people occasionally talk about staying a member for the perks.  Fellowshipping, service, etc.  But no, that reasoning just doesn't do it for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm fond of saying "in the end, the most valid reason to be a member of this church, is you believe God wants you to be one."

I like that, too, but it does raise the question of whether or not God wants everyone to be a member of this Church. I believe God wants me to be a member of the LDS Church, but does that mean that He wants -- let's say for sake of argument -- @prisonchaplain to also be a member of the LDS Church or does God lead him to be a member (and pastor) in the AoG?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@MrShorty I suspect that if the church is true, then Heavenly Father's invitation is, "Whosoever will may come." Likewise, if exaltation is true, the invitation is for all who will embrace its blessings and covenants. So, if I am a member, I would desire to encourage as many as possible into the church and on to a life journey that leads to exaltation. My understanding is that Joseph Smith absolutely rejected the doctrine of predestination (as do I).

Now, as an AoG member and pastor, I do believe I am called to my role. God drew me to it. Further, I have studied and prayed, and do believe that the Assemblies of God, while not the one true church, is a denomination that is faithful to the Holy Spirit's direction, and to the Word of God (Bible). Nevertheless, God did not force or coerce me towards it. Rather, he used faithful church workers to get an invitation to my 10-year old self. I accepted the initial invite, and then the spiritual drawings to conversion, baptism, Spirit-infilling, service, and then called ministry. Free agency is huge in these matters. As a final example, the Worldwide Church of God (Armstrong) become much more God-pleasing when it abandoned most of its distinctive teachings, imho.

Edited by prisonchaplain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Fether said:

QUICK CLARIFICATION:

Im not asking everyone’s plans of what they will do if the church is discovered, proven and admits to be false ... rather I am more curious about the notion of remaining a part of an organization despite realizing its falsehood and lies.

This is more of a discussion on the rational of certain outcomes of a thought experiment then a thought experiment itself.

No. I would not remain in any church if it were untrue, especially a member of the Church. The Church requires so much sacrifice of time, and many other things. That in and of itself would lead me to remove myself. I understand the sentiment (it has good principles and a good way of life), but a person can live good principles without being a member of any group/religion. If you know something isn't true, there is no valid point to remain in it.

I would most likely be a deist. At this moment, I can't fathom the universe coming into existence merely by laws. I also, would have to come to grips with fruits of the Spirit (as defined as the Spirit) within the realm of revelation and prophecy. The fruit of my experiences would lead me toward deism, as atheism is unable to describe (without faith, which goes against everything they say their rational minds accept) dreams, visions, etc...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that the LDS Church has a way of “spoiling” people for any other brand of Christianity.  It arose as a response to perceived shortcomings in mainline Christianity, and offers answers to questions and conundrums that mainline Christianity didn’t (and, to a great extent, still doesn’t) seem to address.  So no, I don’t think I’d go back to mainline Christianity if Mormonism were debunked—Christianity is lovely, but without the patches offered by the LDS Church, its flaws are too deep.

As for whether I’d stay in the LDS Church:  No, I’d leave.  Quietly and sorrowfully, but I’d go.  I love the lifestyle we teach—regardless of the spiritual facet, on a practical level the LDS life philosophy just plain works in a way few others do.  But the catch is, to do it right, you have to believe that there’s a higher purpose for what you’re doing; beyond mere social expediency.  You sort of have to be “all in”, or else Mormonism doesn’t quite work.

For example:  if I lost my testimony I’d still want my kids to grow up with the LDS life, in an LDS congregation, living LDS morality.  It’s a great, great life.  But that would include doing temple baptisms with them; and I wouldn’t be able to do that unless I were paying tithing; and I wouldn’t pay 10% tithing to a church that I didn’t believe was what it purported to be.  So I’d quit going to the temple, and then my kids would ask why, and they’d likely quit going (because I’d be frank with them), and the whole thing would unravel.  I suspect that in Mormonism, the material and emotional price of nonbelieving compliance is just too high.  It’s a good thing I believe it’s all true!  :P 

A final thought:  In Brazil, where I served my mission, we had a word—“mole”, literally meaning “soft”, to describe church members who only lived part of the gospel.  (Yes, it was horrendously judgmental.  Don’t judge my judginess!)  We had a saying:  “First generation mole, second generation inactive, third generation nonmember”, and in my experience the saying is absolutely accurate.  The Church makes it very hard to have belief without action—or vice versa—for any sustained period of time.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It seems to me that the LDS Church has a way of “spoiling” people for any other brand of Christianity.  It arose as a response to perceived shortcomings in mainline Christianity, and offers answers to questions and conundrums that mainline Christianity didn’t (and, to a great extent, still doesn’t) seem to address.  So no, I don’t think I’d go back to mainline Christianity if Mormonism were debunked—Christianity is lovely, but without the patches offered by the LDS Church, its flaws are too deep.

I've noticed that many anti-LDS and anti-JW (at least on Youtube) are motivated by atheism and a supposed logic. Frankly, I don't get why nonbelievers care what people believe, There's not much I can do for or about them. However, the old school Evangelicals who oppose your church, as well as other groups, would do well to take your words above to heart. What good is it to de-convert someone, only to have them embrace atheism or agnosticism? The temptation is obvious--if I was fooled once by spirituality I'll not be fooled twice. There is counsel that I used to give our Christian volunteers at the jail. "Don't bother criticizing or opposing other religions--just lift up the beauty of your faith and what you have to offer." Jesus said that if He is lifted up then all will be drawn to Him. I still believe what I believe and disagree with perspectives counter to my own, but I have yet to meet a soul that has been converted via argumentation or by losing a debate.

Edited by prisonchaplain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I've noticed that many anti-LDS and anti-JW (at least on Youtube) are motivated by atheism and a supposed logic. Frankly, I don't get why nonbelievers care what people believe, There's not much I can do for or about them. However, the old school Evangelicals who oppose your church, as well as other groups, would do well to take your words above to heart. What good is it to de-convert someone, only to have them embrace atheism or agnosticism? The temptation is obvious--if I was fooled once by spirituality I'll not be fooled twice. There is counsel that I used to give our Christian volunteers at the jail. "Don't bother criticizing or opposing other religions--just lift up the beauty of your faith and what you have to offer." Jesus said that if He is lifted up then all will be drawn to Him. I still believe what I believe and disagree with perspectives counter to my own, but I have yet to meet a soul that has been converted via argumentation or by losing a debate.

FWIW, as I’ve observed that characteristic in ex-Mormons, I do sympathize a little more with Christians who are so concerned about their brethren who convert to Mormonism.  If they at least stay Mormon, all well and good; but if they then leave Mormonism, all too often, they are completely lost to the entire community of believers.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It seems to me that the LDS Church has a way of “spoiling” people for any other brand of Christianity

This has often been said, but I recently came across some Pew data (https://www.pewforum.org/2009/07/24/a-portrait-of-mormons-in-the-us-religious-beliefs-and-practices/ ) that suggests that it mostly applies to Protestants. Compared to Catholics, we are similar in this respect (about half of those who leave become unaffiliated in both). I'm not sure what it is, but it doesn't seem unique to the LDS Church in this regard. Perhaps it is as @prisonchaplain mentioned. The Reformation has already set the precedent for "if you don't like your current church, it's okay to find/make a different one." so that Protestants don't have as much resistance to just finding a different Christian church. Something about our Church and the Catholic Church reduces people's desire/willingness to find a different church.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/7/2020 at 12:15 AM, Fether said:

Thoughts on this statement?

I personally could not subscribe to this thinking. I would live all the principles and continue to grow in the same ways I was in the church, but I would have a hard time being a member of it.
 

I would, however, have an insanely hard time putting away the scripture we have and the words of the prophets.

I will say it, the Bible is amazing and has some incredible scriptures... but it is limited when compared to the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, PoGP, and all the words of the prophets. The doctrines unique to the church would be so hard to let go of. I would likely get baptized as a Protestant Christian just to cover catholic and Protestant bases and begin my search for truth. I may end up going atheist though. It would be hard to give up so many amazing teachings for traditional Christianity. I get anxiety just thinking about it

 

QUICK CLARIFICATION:

Im not asking everyone’s plans of what they will do if the church is discovered, proven and admits to be false ... rather I am more curious about the notion of remaining a part of an organization despite realizing its falsehood and lies.

This is more of a discussion on the rational of certain outcomes of a thought experiment then a thought experiment itself.

No, as I am by nature irreligious. Had I not received a spiritual witness of its truthfulness, I would never join any church at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first reaction is I still would be a member, yes. I like the church. By nature of the thought experiment, I like the "mythology" of the church. I like the culture (no, not whatever toxic culture one might want to point out, but the best-intended culture). I think I would find the church to be a nice anchor in whatever else I chose to do with my spiritual and philosophical beliefs.

I suppose in recent years I've become more tolerant of those who stick with a church for more cultural/traditional reasons than spiritual.

But... I still don't love the notion. It seems, if not hypocritical, lazy.

So in this thought experiment I'm not sure how long Is stick with the Church.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this