Worst and Best drivers (by State) in the USA

[Still_Small_Voice]

5 hours ago, Fether said:

Saints all over the world are dropping receipts, peeing behind trees, jaywalking across empty streets, running red lights in the middle of the night when there are no cars, singing happy birthday at young men/women’s, and sharing prescribed Tylenol to family with headaches.

I have no problem if someone stops at a red traffic light when there is no or very little traffic, looks all directions safely to verify there is no one coming and proceeds safely through the intersection.  They are obeying the spirit of the law.  I have a problem with idiots that think saving three minutes of their time is more important than other's well being and just run through a red traffic light. 

As I drove to work in a car over ten years ago the LORD told me to look to my left as I came to a green traffic light that had been green for my right of way for some time (likely over ten seconds). I looked and saw someone driving a car that was not stopping.  I stopped at the intersection because I saw them and they went right through a red light likely going around 35 miles per hour. The reason I was not injured or killed is because the LORD gave me inspiration that protected me and the other person who was driving a car badly.

[Traveler]

This thread is turning into a lot more fun than I anticipated.   For the record - I agree with @Still_Small_Voice - the object of driving is not to get from point A to point B but rather is to get from point A to point B without getting hurt, hurting anyone else or damaging property.  I have been hit by a car twice when riding my bicycle (not the same car if my construction of a sentence is confusing).  What I have learned is that it does not matter if I obeyed the traffic laws or not - when I am hit it hurts me and my bicycle a lot more than it does the car or anyone in the car.   I have learned not to let cars hit me - regardless of what other cars are doing.  This is not as easy as it sounds.

It is a rare driver that thinks most drivers are better than them - rather they think most drivers are worse than them.  It is kind of like 90% of the people of earth think they are smarter than the average person.  I have a sister-in-law (and I am sure you all know someone like her) that thinks she is one of the best drivers ever.  But she is a hazard looking for an accident.  Sadly it is my wife's favorite sister so I am not allowed to say something like, "Did you know that it is against the law to change lanes in intersections? - Primarily because it puts everybody at risk, especially in heavy traffic."   With some people it is more rude to shame their driving than it is for them to drive with careless disregard for others.   I have a deal with my wife - she does not expect me to ride in a car her sister is driving and I will not comment on her sister's horrible driving.

One thing I have learned from ridding a bicycle is that bad driver are not hard to spot.  So I thought to add spotting bad drivers to this thread.  Here are some that I use:

1. People that have difficulty staying between the lines of their lanes - especially on highway curves. 

2. People that are trying to do something other than driving when they are driving.  There is a very long list of something other than driving items. 

3. People that seem to drive with their foot hard on either the gas peddle or the break peddle.  They have no clue how to slow down without heavy breaking.

4. People that over-react whenever something happens that they are not expecting, anticipating or wanting to happen. 

5. People that do not know how to adjust their driving to conditions or what other drivers (traffic) are doing.

So here are a few to start.

 

The Traveler

[Jamie123]

On 12/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, JohnsonJones said:

But, in some areas of the US where the Church dominates, it seems that members are more than willing to excuse breaking the law just a little bit on purpose, to get somewhere faster, or to get do other things.  It's an idea that I do not quite understand of WHY it is acceptable, but perhaps others can explain to me.

I remember once back when I was taking the missionary lessons, I was invited to the house of some members. The husband was something quite high up - maybe a branch president. He was a convert (and liked everyone to know it) but his wife was a lifelong member. I walked to their house since it wasn't far away, but the wife insisted on driving me home afterwards.

And she was a RAVING MANIAC.

I'd swear she thought the road was a racetrack. She showed no respect whatsoever for speed limits or the rules of the road. I don't want to sound judgmental: I had a bit of a heavy foot myself back in those days, but I was nothing like this lady. And she'd only just been telling me all about the wonders of...if only I would accept and open my heart to...blah blah blah (well, you know the sort of thing) and seconds later she'd taken the Articles of Faith and the Highway Code and tossed them both into the gutter*.

So no, what you say doesn't surprise me one bit.

* Metaphorically. I've no evidence that she was a litterbug as well as a road hog.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

1. People that have difficulty staying between the lines of their lanes - especially on highway curves. 

2. People that are trying to do something other than driving when they are driving.  There is a very long list of something other than driving items. 

3. People that seem to drive with their foot hard on either the gas peddle or the break peddle.  They have no clue how to slow down without heavy breaking.

4. People that over-react whenever something happens that they are not expecting, anticipating or wanting to happen. 

5. People that do not know how to adjust their driving to conditions or what other drivers (traffic) are doing.

In the UK at least, times are changing. About 15 years ago I made a conscious decision to at least try to keep to the speed limits, regardless of whether there was a speed camera in sight. This got me routinely honked at, sworn at, flashed at, tailgated and overtaken in such a manner as to make oncoming drivers need clean underwear. But as time went by, these things got less frequent. Nowadays most drivers do the same as me. There are odd exceptions (mostly BMW and Audi drivers) but the angry tantrums and fist-wavings are largely things of the past.

I haven't driven in the US since 2005, but the thing I remember most vividly is the way Americans drive in poor visibility. I consider it a cardinal rule always to be able to stop in the space of road visible to you. In poor visibility that means driving SLOWLY. Most Americans don't do that: their rule is to position themselves correctly between the lines (they're good at that at least) and then live by blind faith that the road ahead is clear. I've ridden with people who'll drive happily at 70mph when they can see barely more than 6ft in front of their headlights.

Whenever I was behind the wheel in such conditions, I'd slow right down. The trouble was that caused problems too. The drivers who thought visibility was unimportant (which was most of them) would find me suddenly in their path and swerve dangerously around me - with the road covered in ice or slush, only barely keeping control.

So you have a paradoxical situation: by driving more safely yourself, you make the road less safe. Should you hurtle blindly into a whiteout and pray that you don't suddenly meet a fallen tree or a moose on the road? Or do you put yourself (and other people) equally in danger by keeping your speed down?

It's probably best not to drive at all until the storm's over.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Jamie123

[JohnsonJones]

11 hours ago, Fether said:

 

We all have some line in the law we are willing to break for convenience. Whether it’s not putting on your seatbelt on to move your car 20 feet for a family member, singing happy birthday day at a church event, letting a piece of paper of yours to blow away in the wind, Running a red light at 3am cause you have been waiting for 15 minutes for it to change, or jaywalking across a mostly empty Main Street cause the nearest crossing is a 20 minute walk away.

sure there are different levels of seriousness to each little law and consistently speeding is probably on the more serious end. But my point is that we all have a line of what laws are appropriate to break at what time. 

I definitely see Speeding as “not ok”. My complaint is that you seem to be virtue signaling a specific law that many see as not important but you take great pride in obeying. I’m just trying to counter your thinking and show that we are all guilty of disobeying “minor” laws, but still choose to do it out of convenience.
 

But yes, I don’t think it’s a big deal to speed. Especially when everyone else is speeding, at that point it is a matter of safety and not obedience.
 

Ultimately I am trying to answer your question by explaining to you that there are tiny laws we all ignore out of convenience and that it shouldn’t be grounds to question ones level of obedience to the gospel

If there is an issue here, it isn’t a Utah problem but a world wide problem. Saints all over the world are dropping receipts, peeing behind trees, jaywalking across empty streets, running red lights in the middle of the night when there are no cars, singing happy birthday at young men/women’s, and sharing prescribed Tylenol to family with headaches.

How to explain this...It's more a difference in cultures.  The culture you live in and how you do things are different than what I am used to.  It can be hard to understand different cultures and their reasons for doing things.  Many times, different cultures have extremely different mindsets about things and what is good, what is bad, what is okay, and what is not.  Trying to understand by comparison of your own culture is not necessarily trying to say one is better than the other, but trying to understand the differences and what drives those differences as well as how that mindset works in conjunction with other things.

No, not virtue signalling.  There are MANY that I grew up with and in my age range that were taught a great respect for the law.  I don't KNOWINGLY (there's a difference between knowingly and purposefully) breaking the law, and you may be surprised that there are actually many people out there that try their best to obey every law out there. 

When you live like that and are raised like that, it is very hard to understand those who choose to break even small laws on purpose.  That doesn't mean we always keep every law because, as I said, one may break one out of ignorance.  But the idea of breaking the law on purpose is strange, and breaking it on purpose regularly is even odder.

This isn't virtue signalling anymore than any other person in another part of the US or another nation virtue signals that they obey the laws in their area.  There are plenty of people in other states that do not speed (and yes, many that do, but I've NEVER encountered so many in such a group as I have in Utah), and many that try as best they can to obey the laws that their nation, states, and locales have in place. 

I do not feel this is a cultural artifact that all Saints have all over the world.  Yes, there are some out there that regularly break rules, but most of those that I have known outside of the Church dominated areas of the West actually are pretty law abiding in every way.  It was one of the BIG reasons that the Church was allowed behind the Iron Curtain many years ago when we tried to build temples in East Germany.  They heard and felt that the Saints would support the Government and obey the laws that were in place.  Our Articles of Faith imply it, and many of our General Authorities taught it.  It wasn't a matter of convenience or ignoring the little things, but obeying their leaders as best they could.

You may be surprised at how many actually do not speed in other places and do their utmost best to follow other rules.  As I said above, different cultures value different things and do things differently.  I think you take it the wrong way and that you think I'm trying to offend.  I'm not trying to offend you, simply understand.  The Culture where it is acceptable for every person on the road to break the law is a different culture from the one I grew up in and understand.  Trying to understand other cultures can be useful.  I don't know how to explain it to you, but I guess it would be like if you came out to the East Coast.

In Utah, the Law of Chastity still means something to members of the Church.  In the East Coast and California and many portions of Europe breaking the Law of Chastity is no big deal to people in the culture.  Things that may be a big deal in Utah (for example, pornography) is just a matter of life going on for 99% of people (who are not members of the Church).  It's accepted as common.  Someone who is not from that culture could be blown away.  If they then said to you...come on...everyone does that, it's no big deal.  It's not just something we do, everyone, even you...have to have done this stuff sometime...

You'd probably say...no...not really, that doesn't really describe me or members of my church.  Many actually DON'T do that type of stuff.  That's not virtue signalling.  (and no, members out East and out of the Utah areas do NOT break the Law of Chastity like those around them, but as they are a minority compared to the rest of the population, their impact is statistically insignificant on the rest of the culture).

A different approach, but one that I CAN understand.  In the Middle East in many  nations I have been to, you can trust your wallet anywhere (not that I would).  The people you have to worry most about are actually those who are not born in those nations.  Those born in those nations know better.  Part of this is their religion, another part though is the extremely harsh penalties in place if they steal something.  They are extremely moral in comparison to those in the US, but much of that is that the laws are based more on Islam and the penalties are harsh enough that many Americans would consider it violations of Human Rights. 

This isn't saying that I have not ever broken a small law or had an infraction, but I try to obey the laws as best I can.  It's not a matter of convenience that makes it okay.  That's part of the culture I live in, but it may not be the culture of those in the area of Utah between Salt Lake and Provo.  I don't know exactly, which is why I'm trying to see the reasons and how it works in their minds.  On the note that I was trying to pursue, I thank you for the insight you have given me.

It is interesting to read your opinion on the law and reasons why people speed over the limit in Utah.  I imagine that this is the reason that many in Utah speed.  It's a matter of convenience.  It's an entire culture I suppose that will speed or other things if it's convenient...which is a cultural aspect of people in those areas of the world (Utah...etc).

Which posits my next question...if one will speed for convenience...will they do other things as a matter of convenience by seeing them as little things that do not matter overall?

If not, why not?  If it's okay to break what one sees as minor laws for convenience, why not things they see as minor commandments or rules and such?

(And as a side note, I have some kids that live in Utah, and I haven't actually noticed this trend in them, but then, as they know I'm their dad and grew up with me, it could be that they hide these things from me when we visit as well).

Edited December 14, 2020 by JohnsonJones
Trying to better explain and not offend

[JohnsonJones]

26 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

In the UK at least, times are changing. About 15 years ago I made a conscious decision to at least try to keep to the speed limits, regardless of whether there was a speed camera in sight. This got me routinely honked at, sworn at, flashed at, tailgated and overtaken in such a manner as to make oncoming drivers need clean underwear. But as time went by, these things got less frequent. Nowadays most drivers do the same as me. There are odd exceptions (mostly BMW and Audi drivers) but the angry tantrums and fist-wavings are largely things of the past.

I haven't driven in the US since 2005, but the thing I remember most vividly about it is the way Americans drive in poor visibility. I make it a cardinal rule always to be able to stop in the space of road visible to me. In poor visibility that means driving SLOWLY. Most Americans don't do that: their rule is to position themselves correctly between the lines (they're good at that at least) and otherwise drive exactly as if the road was clear. I've ridden with people who'll drive happily at 70mph when they can see barely more than 6ft in front of their headlights.

Whenever I was behind the wheel in such conditions, I'd slow right down - but that caused problems too. All the drivers who thought visibility should have no impact on speed (which was most of them) would find me suddenly in their path and do swervy overtakings around me - with the road covered in ice or slush.

So you have a paradoxical situation: by driving more safely, you cause unsafe drivers to drive more unsafely still. So what do you do? Drive blindly into a whiteout and pray that you don't suddenly meet a fallen tree or a moose on the road? Or do you put yourself (and other people) equally in danger by keeping your speed down and inciting the idiots to overtake you? It's probably best not to drive at all until the storm's over.

It's probably best to not drive until the storm is over.  If you are ever in the South and it snows...no matter what...no matter how important it is...DO NOT DRIVE.  Your life depends on that.  They do not know how to drive in any amount of snow in the Southern US...and you can DIE by others ramming into you in the craziness that follows.

I know I am an extremely WEAK driver in snow, driving in Snow makes me extremely nervous.  Craziest driving I ever encountered though was in Italy.  I'm not sure why they even have traffic laws there sometimes.  Some of the roads in Southern Europe (more towards Greece and the Eastern portions) in the cities are crazy though, and driving through those probably had the native drivers thinking I had no idea where I was going (and honestly...I probably didn't).

[Jamie123]

2 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

It's probably best to not drive until the storm is over.  If you are ever in the South and it snows...no matter what...no matter how important it is...DO NOT DRIVE.  Your life depends on that.  They do not know how to drive in any amount of snow in the Southern US...and you can DIE by others ramming into you in the craziness that follows.

I know I am an extremely WEAK driver in snow, driving in Snow makes me extremely nervous.  Craziest driving I ever encountered though was in Italy.  I'm not sure why they even have traffic laws there sometimes.  Some of the roads in Southern Europe (more towards Greece and the Eastern portions) in the cities are crazy though, and driving through those probably had the native drivers thinking I had no idea where I was going (and honestly...I probably didn't).

I've never been to Italy, but if they are anything like the French I can well believe you. It's sometimes said of them that they are "genetically unable to drive, but persist in trying". Accidents are so common that they don't even bother stopping for the less serious ones.

[Fether]

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

How to explain this...It's more a difference in cultures.  The culture you live in and how you do things are different than what I am used to.  It can be hard to understand different cultures and their reasons for doing things.  Many times, different cultures have extremely different mindsets about things and what is good, what is bad, what is okay, and what is not.  Trying to understand by comparison of your own culture is not necessarily trying to say one is better than the other, but trying to understand the differences and what drives those differences as well as how that mindset works in conjunction with other things.

No, not virtue signalling.  There are MANY that I grew up with and in my age range that were taught a great respect for the law.  I don't KNOWINGLY (there's a difference between knowingly and purposefully) breaking the law, and you may be surprised that there are actually many people out there that try their best to obey every law out there. 

When you live like that and are raised like that, it is very hard to understand those who choose to break even small laws on purpose.  That doesn't mean we always keep every law because, as I said, one may break one out of ignorance.  But the idea of breaking the law on purpose is strange, and breaking it on purpose regularly is even odder.

This isn't virtue signalling anymore than any other person in another part of the US or another nation virtue signals that they obey the laws in their area.  There are plenty of people in other states that do not speed (and yes, many that do, but I've NEVER encountered so many in such a group as I have in Utah), and many that try as best they can to obey the laws that their nation, states, and locales have in place. 

I do not feel this is a cultural artifact that all Saints have all over the world.  Yes, there are some out there that regularly break rules, but most of those that I have known outside of the Church dominated areas of the West actually are pretty law abiding in every way.  It was one of the BIG reasons that the Church was allowed behind the Iron Curtain many years ago when we tried to build temples in East Germany.  They heard and felt that the Saints would support the Government and obey the laws that were in place.  Our Articles of Faith imply it, and many of our General Authorities taught it.  It wasn't a matter of convenience or ignoring the little things, but obeying their leaders as best they could.

You may be surprised at how many actually do not speed in other places and do their utmost best to follow other rules.  As I said above, different cultures value different things and do things differently.  I think you take it the wrong way and that you think I'm trying to offend.  I'm not trying to offend you, simply understand.  The Culture where it is acceptable for every person on the road to break the law is a different culture from the one I grew up in and understand.  Trying to understand other cultures can be useful.  I don't know how to explain it to you, but I guess it would be like if you came out to the East Coast.

In Utah, the Law of Chastity still means something to members of the Church.  In the East Coast and California and many portions of Europe breaking the Law of Chastity is no big deal to people in the culture.  Things that may be a big deal in Utah (for example, pornography) is just a matter of life going on for 99% of people (who are not members of the Church).  It's accepted as common.  Someone who is not from that culture could be blown away.  If they then said to you...come on...everyone does that, it's no big deal.  It's not just something we do, everyone, even you...have to have done this stuff sometime...

You'd probably say...no...not really, that doesn't really describe me or members of my church.  Many actually DON'T do that type of stuff.  That's not virtue signalling.  (and no, members out East and out of the Utah areas do NOT break the Law of Chastity like those around them, but as they are a minority compared to the rest of the population, their impact is statistically insignificant on the rest of the culture).

A different approach, but one that I CAN understand.  In the Middle East in many  nations I have been to, you can trust your wallet anywhere (not that I would).  The people you have to worry most about are actually those who are not born in those nations.  Those born in those nations know better.  Part of this is their religion, another part though is the extremely harsh penalties in place if they steal something.  They are extremely moral in comparison to those in the US, but much of that is that the laws are based more on Islam and the penalties are harsh enough that many Americans would consider it violations of Human Rights. 

This isn't saying that I have not ever broken a small law or had an infraction, but I try to obey the laws as best I can.  It's not a matter of convenience that makes it okay.  That's part of the culture I live in, but it may not be the culture of those in the area of Utah between Salt Lake and Provo.  I don't know exactly, which is why I'm trying to see the reasons and how it works in their minds.  On the note that I was trying to pursue, I thank you for the insight you have given me.

It is interesting to read your opinion on the law and reasons why people speed over the limit in Utah.  I imagine that this is the reason that many in Utah speed.  It's a matter of convenience.  It's an entire culture I suppose that will speed or other things if it's convenient...which is a cultural aspect of people in those areas of the world (Utah...etc).

Which posits my next question...if one will speed for convenience...will they do other things as a matter of convenience by seeing them as little things that do not matter overall?

If not, why not?  If it's okay to break what one sees as minor laws for convenience, why not things they see as minor commandments or rules and such?

(And as a side note, I have some kids that live in Utah, and I haven't actually noticed this trend in them, but then, as they know I'm their dad and grew up with me, it could be that they hide these things from me when we visit as well).

to answer your question, I value the laws of God more than the laws of man (and I know one law of God is to obey the laws of man). The issue is what it seems you are suggesting is that if someone falls short on any law of man or God, they must be willing to to rebel any law. It’s a slippery slope fallacy if I ever saw one.

Again, this isn’t a “Speeding” problem, it’s a “breaking small rules for convenience” problem.

I don’t need a breakdown of each individual claim. I only ask, can you honestly say you have never knowingly broken any rule or law (man or God made) in the last year.

You seem to be suggesting you are perfect at following every law, that you have never once I  your recent life jaywalked, ran a red light at 3am, let a receipt or piece of paper of yours blow away in the wind, done something g your spouse or family member asked you not to do (no matter how small), etc.

By your logic, unless you are perfect at keeping all the laws and rules of God, man, or requests from family members, we must assume that you are willing to break all laws of God if it benefits you.

Its your conclusion that I disagree with, not whether speeding is wrong or not.

If we see someone speeding, organizing a singing of happy birthday at a church activity, jaywalking, or standing within 6 feet of someone at a super market, we shouldn’t be asking ourselves “If they are willing to walk across Main Street at a non-designated cross walk, would they be willing to cheat on their wife?”

Edited December 14, 2020 by Fether

[Fether]

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Which posits my next question...if one will speed for convenience...will they do other things as a matter of convenience by seeing them as little things that do not matter overall?

If not, why not?  If it's okay to break what one sees as minor laws for convenience, why not things they see as minor commandments or rules and such?

 

This is where my issues arise, and I will be reiterating what I said above, but I just need it driven home.

Seeing someone knowingly drive 10 miles over the speed limit should not necessitate a question of faithfulness to the gospel and their willingness to rebel against small gospel rules (like prayer or studying scriptures daily). 
 

If you believe so, then by that logic we should also be asking ourselves:

- Is someone really trying to take care of their soul and reach salvation if they choose to eat fast food and not take care of their body?

- Is someone really trying to understand the gospel and it’s commandments if they fail to be 100% familiar with the forum rules?

Though each worldly example may have effects or show small insights into how we see the gospel, we can’t make inferences on their righteousness nor is it a worth while question to be asking. 
 
So to answer your questions again. No, if someone is willing to speed, it does not mean they are willing to break seemingly “small” commandments for the sake of convenience. It means either (a) there is some level of weakness when it comes to civil law, (b) they understand the law differently and obey it by the spirit but not the letter (I drive the speed limit in heavy traffic but not in low traffic. Purely for safety reasons), (c) out of rebellion (in which there would be cause to question faithfulness), or any amount of other reasons.

Its a matter of what’s in the heart, not what’s being done, that should bring cause to question one’s devotion to the gospel.

[Traveler]

14 minutes ago, Fether said:

Seeing someone knowingly drive 10 miles over the speed limit should not necessitate a question of faithfulness to the gospel and their willingness to rebel against small gospel rules (like prayer or studying scriptures daily). 

President David O. McKay was somewhat famous for his lead foot driving.  

A couple of notes - I had a sports car in college with a very low center of gravity and driving it on roads with sharp curves was what it was designed for - it was exceptional for handling on icy roads.  However, because it was low to the ground 6 inches of snow made driving it impossible.   The equipment used for driving can significantly alter the bandwidth for  safe and prudent driving.  Likewise the skill of a individual driver can have a significant impact on the range of what is safe and prudent driving.

It is alarming to me that many do not maintain their equipment properly and we all know that driving while "impaired" is one of the greatest threats in driving - yet many ignore both because such is not always well defined in the "Law".  Roads and laws are designed and constructed for the general public - there are some people whose attitude and demeanor is not compatible with what is safe under any circumstance.  The sad fact is that often they do not know it and consider it rude for anyone else to draw it to their attention.   

And so as I observe certain drivers tempting others to join them in an accident - I have decided to let someone else (perhaps of similar mentality) accommodate them. 

 

The Traveler

 

 

[JohnsonJones]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

to answer your question, I value the laws of God more than the laws of man (and I know one law of God is to obey the laws of man). The issue is what it seems you are suggesting is that if someone falls short on any law of man or God, they must be willing to to rebel any law. It’s a slippery slope fallacy if I ever saw one.

Again, this isn’t a “Speeding” problem, it’s a “breaking small rules for convenience” problem.

I don’t need a breakdown of each individual claim. I only ask, can you honestly say you have never knowingly broken any rule or law (man or God made) in the last year.

You seem to be suggesting you are perfect at following every law, that you have never once I  your recent life jaywalked, ran a red light at 3am, let a receipt or piece of paper of yours blow away in the wind, done something g your spouse or family member asked you not to do (no matter how small), etc.

By your logic, unless you are perfect at keeping all the laws and rules of God, man, or requests from family members, we must assume that you are willing to break all laws of God if it benefits you.

Its your conclusion that I disagree with, not whether speeding is wrong or not.

If we see someone speeding, organizing a singing of happy birthday at a church activity, jaywalking, or standing within 6 feet of someone at a super market, we shouldn’t be asking ourselves “If they are willing to walk across Main Street at a non-designated cross walk, would they be willing to cheat on their wife?”

 

Once again, there is a DIFFERENCE between breaking the law on purpose vs. breaking it by accident/ignorance.

However, in answer to your questions...no, I have no jaywalked, nor ran a red light at 3 am (suspiciously specific there...but in general, no, I have not run red lights, and especially not on purpose), nor do I lose my receipts.

Not sure where the law about having to do everything your family asks you to do is on the books, you'll have to give me that one.  I'm not about to break mask mandates or self isolation just because a family member asks...for example.

2 hours ago, Fether said:

This is where my issues arise, and I will be reiterating what I said above, but I just need it driven home.

Seeing someone knowingly drive 10 miles over the speed limit should not necessitate a question of faithfulness to the gospel and their willingness to rebel against small gospel rules (like prayer or studying scriptures daily). 
 

If you believe so, then by that logic we should also be asking ourselves:

- Is someone really trying to take care of their soul and reach salvation if they choose to eat fast food and not take care of their body?

- Is someone really trying to understand the gospel and it’s commandments if they fail to be 100% familiar with the forum rules?

Though each worldly example may have effects or show small insights into how we see the gospel, we can’t make inferences on their righteousness nor is it a worth while question to be asking. 
 
So to answer your questions again. No, if someone is willing to speed, it does not mean they are willing to break seemingly “small” commandments for the sake of convenience. It means either (a) there is some level of weakness when it comes to civil law, (b) they understand the law differently and obey it by the spirit but not the letter (I drive the speed limit in heavy traffic but not in low traffic. Purely for safety reasons), (c) out of rebellion (in which there would be cause to question faithfulness), or any amount of other reasons.

Its a matter of what’s in the heart, not what’s being done, that should bring cause to question one’s devotion to the gospel.

You are taking offense when there should be none.  I'm not sure why you are taking offense. 

How can I say this...no...I don't actively break the law on purpose.  It's not something I really want to do or desire to do and I know plenty of others like me.  Is this concept a foreign concept in the part of Utah where you live?

People obeying the laws, even minor ones, is NOT something that is all that strange, at least in my experience.  IT's not a virtue signalling or anything else.  It's how things are.  It's rather odd to have someone assume everyone breaks the laws on purpose. 

It is interesting that you bring up following the Spirit but not the letter of the Law.  What does that actually mean?  I think it means something different in your culture than the ones I've normally am familiar with. 

The reason I ask about breaking commandments and such actually ties into that statement in other cultures sometimes.  I other cultures (not necessarily yours) when people are willing to make minor infractions against the laws of their land, they also are willing to bend laws and rules in their religion or organizations.  This is not necessarily a bad thing or good thing.  I don't think you understand it's not necessarily saying you are bad when I ask that question at all, as you seem to have taken it in a bad way.  It could be a good thing in some instances, which is something I don't think you understand.  Thus, it is merely a query to understand how this all works.

An example which one could say was good or bad.  In Saudi Arabia there are laws tied to the dominant religion there, however they are not necessarily reflective of that religion.  There is a movement there to give women more rights.  On occasion, these women would attempt to drive themselves or go out on their own to certain locations which are in direct violation of the law.  When one sees this as an American, it does not seem that big of a deal.  These same women though, in doing so may also be breaking some of the religious traditions that they are supposed to follow. They may be defying their husbands and many of them do not follow the strict dress codes dictated to them in their religious sect.  The same spirit that inspires them to defy the laws of their land also gives them a critical eye in how much they feel they want to follow the laws of their religion.  In their eyes, some of them will say they are following the spirit of the law of Islam, even if they are not following the letter of the Law.

Many see them as being wrong in Saudi Arabia, but others in the West see them as being right.  Perspective can say it is good or bad.  Due to their actions it is thought that their influence has finally allowed woman to at least be able to drive a vehicle.  Many feel their actions and influence have allowed woman to slowly gain more rights in Saudi Arabia.  At the same time, some of them are having very harsh penalties and punishments laid upon them.

Do you see them as heroes?  Villains?  Neither?  I suppose it depends on your point of view.  However, to someone who does not understand the motivations of the culture, all of it can be confusing.

This is a common theme that you can see in other cultures as well, where if one is willing to bend the law of the land, they are also willing to bend the rules of their culture (whether it be religious rules, social rules, or otherwise).  The thought then is that if one is willing to purposely break the law of their land, they will also be willing to do it in other matters.  This is NOT an uncommon theme you see in the study of cultures and events in history.  At times it's led to massive changes that we see (for example, many would be surprised at some of the ways the Revolutionary Leaders of the US Revolutionary War actually felt about religion and religious rules, which in some ways can also be seen as a reflection on their take on British Law upon the colonies).

This is where I currently stand in the approach you have discussed about Utah Culture in this aspect.  I don't understand your culture or where you are coming from, so I am asking questions that traditionally follow from one point to another in other cultures.

In follow through, I know in Utah they recently approved Marijuana Use.  This was expressly against the wishes of the leadership of the Church.  If we take that Utah has a massive influence from members of the Church, the implication is that the members broke with the Brethren on this issue.  That would seem to back up to me that there COULD BE (not that there is) a correlation between those who are willing to break what they perceive as minor laws in Utah with those that are also willing to break what they see as minor things from their Church leaders (for example, I'd imagine the excuse they gave themselves when voting to legalize marijuana was that the General Authorities were speaking as men on the issue, or that the Church had no place in politics...etc..etc...etc).

I see a lot of things like this occurring in Utah which at times puzzle those who are not in Utah (BYU starting to offer caffeinated drinks for example, they did not sell those drinks due to revelation from a prophet for them not to and did not sell them for many years as one example) which to me would make sense if members there apply the same logic to certain rules or ideas in the Church that they do to the laws of the land that they see as minor infractions (such as speeding for example).

If I understand what you have said correctly though, this is not why you do things.  You speed because you feel it is following the Spirit of the Law rather than the Letter, the spirit of the law indicating that the reason the law exist is to ensure that you drive safely.  If we extend this to most of the people in your area, would this also indicate that they feel they know better than the police or those that enforce the laws, or that they know better then the safety regulators who make these laws?

If so, why do they not just vote to change the laws?

Something I HAVE noticed in my visits to Utah is that the speed limit has risen over the years, and yet, even as it rises, people adjust so that they drive even faster.  Back when it was 65 people drove 70-80 mph.  Now that it is 70-75 (80 in some areas I believe) they still drive 5-15 mph over the speed limit.  In theory it adjusted to their driving patterns and what they desired...but looking at their behavior it appears it had nothing to do with wanting to drive that speed and instead something else.  What that something else is though, I do not quite understand.

Perhaps you can explain.  Do you feel that the faster you drive the safer you are on the road?  Obviously the speed limits are still not what the people of Utah desire...so what speed do you feel should be the speed limit and why is it inherently better than what was there before?

 

 

PS: And it could work both ways.  There are times that my statements do not match eye to eye with what some would interpret as the ongoing ideas of some of the church leadership (especially the more conservative leadership).  Thus, the idea that I might not see eye to eye with local leadership on secular laws may also be an assumption one may make in that arena, all things being equal.

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by JohnsonJones

[Backroads]

I tend to follow the speed limit because I'm a stickler fuddy-duddy for such things that I am biased to follow. In my mind, the speed limit was posted with regard to the area, traffic, and local needs. Sure, you could argue with me and pull out some shocking expose, but I am trusting in the notion that the speed limit is there for a reason of some level of safety. 

[Jamie123]

47 minutes ago, Backroads said:

I tend to follow the speed limit because I'm a stickler fuddy-duddy for such things that I am biased to follow. In my mind, the speed limit was posted with regard to the area, traffic, and local needs. Sure, you could argue with me and pull out some shocking expose, but I am trusting in the notion that the speed limit is there for a reason of some level of safety. 

I agree with you totally. If you think the speed limit is too slow, you should take your complaints to the Department of Transport. You should NOT vent your spleen other road users for obeying the law. It is not they who set the limit

[Still_Small_Voice]

3 hours ago, Backroads said:

I tend to follow the speed limit because I'm a stickler fuddy-duddy for such things that I am biased to follow. In my mind, the speed limit was posted with regard to the area, traffic, and local needs. Sure, you could argue with me and pull out some shocking expose, but I am trusting in the notion that the speed limit is there for a reason of some level of safety. 

From what I have observed the speed limit is usually reasonable on most roads.  Some roads I believe the speed limit is set low in areas to generate tax revenue.  It is very disgraceful in my opinion to reduce our police to tax collectors in speed trap zones.

[askandanswer]

5 hours ago, Backroads said:

In my mind, the speed limit was posted with regard to the area, traffic, and local needs

Does this only apply to Backroads? 

Edited December 15, 2020 by askandanswer

[Backroads]

17 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Does this only apply to Backroads? 

You know it.

[Backroads]

19 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

From what I have observed the speed limit is usually reasonable on most roads.  Some roads I believe the speed limit is set low in areas to generate tax revenue.  It is very disgraceful in my opinion to reduce our police to tax collectors in speed trap zones.

There was a certain town not too far from me that was infamous for a certain cop and his speed traps. Not so long ago I believe he was fired or something for drinking on the job...