Sign in to follow this  
Fether

Singular righteousness vs unified righteousness

Recommended Posts

What benefits can we expect when we live righteously as a group vs alone?

For example:

- sitting reverently with an entire congregation prior to sacrament meeting as opposed to doing it alone while others are conversing about politics or sports.

- Attending the temple where every member there is 100% worthy to be there instead of being in a temple where 5% or so are not worthy to be there

- Working in a company where you are the only person that loves the principles of the gospel vs a company where every employee is an RM and is working to live righteously

The only example I can think of is the city of Enoch. They, collectively, were so righteous that the city was taken up. However you don’t see that happening anywhere in Scripture to some individual.

Additionally, anyone have any insights on this topic?

I have heard the phrase that we are not saved individually, but as families. Also I am aware of the concept that God will reveal truths to the church as we collectively live more righteously.

I am mostly studying about this topic and am looking for insights in it

Edited by Fether

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the main difference is obedience is easier in a group. Social pressure, for both good and bad, can make it easier or harder to live the gospel. Though we have great examples like Mormon, Moroni, Abinadi, and others who show us obedience is possible even without that group support. To your point we know Elijah was taken up in a chariot of fire and I believe there were individuals who were taken up before the great flood. It takes a strong person to remain faithful alone but it is possible so not having a group to support us does not excuse us but it sure is a lot easier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Fether said:

The only example I can think of is the city of Enoch. They, collectively, were so righteous that the city was taken up. However you don’t see that happening anywhere in Scripture to some individual.

On this one sentence, I must have misunderstood you.

Regarding Individuals.

Elijah...also suspected would be Moses and Alma...and possibly later will be the 3 Nephites and John.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

On this one sentence, I must have misunderstood you.

Regarding Individuals.

Elijah...also suspected would be Moses and Alma...and possibly later will be the 3 Nephites and John.

From what I always understood, they were taken up at (or around) their appointed time of death. It wasn’t a “you are so righteous I am taking you to heaven” but rather a “You have lived righteously so instead of experiencing death, I will take you up...But perhaps that is an unfound assumption.

The City of Enoch was so righteous that they were all taken up despite having no reason to believe the city was soon to be destroyed. Compared to the brother of Jared who had so much faith he could not be kept from the veil.

My Main question is “are there unique blessings we can experience when living the gospel in groups rather than on your own”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Fether said:

What benefits can we expect when we live righteously as a group vs alone?

My first thought was to go look up everything on the church website about Zion, and there's your answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Fether said:

What benefits can we expect when we live righteously as a group vs alone?

For example:

- sitting reverently with an entire congregation prior to sacrament meeting as opposed to doing it alone while others are conversing about politics or sports.

- Attending the temple where every member there is 100% worthy to be there instead of being in a temple where 5% or so are not worthy to be there

- Working in a company where you are the only person that loves the principles of the gospel vs a company where every employee is an RM and is working to live righteously

The only example I can think of is the city of Enoch. They, collectively, were so righteous that the city was taken up. However you don’t see that happening anywhere in Scripture to some individual.

Additionally, anyone have any insights on this topic?

I have heard the phrase that we are not saved individually, but as families. Also I am aware of the concept that God will reveal truths to the church as we collectively live more righteously.

I am mostly studying about this topic and am looking for insights in it

We are saved as individuals but exalted as families. Lots of tie-ins to the gathering of Israel here!

I think Noah was not taken up, and Methuselah allowed to die, both presumably as righteous men and their family members to preserve the covenant in the fallen world, op remain as leaven, rather than keep it apart after those in Zion had been gathered out of the world and then taken up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2021 at 9:19 PM, Fether said:

What benefits can we expect when we live righteously as a group vs alone?

For example:

- sitting reverently with an entire congregation prior to sacrament meeting as opposed to doing it alone while others are conversing about politics or sports.

- Attending the temple where every member there is 100% worthy to be there instead of being in a temple where 5% or so are not worthy to be there

- Working in a company where you are the only person that loves the principles of the gospel vs a company where every employee is an RM and is working to live righteously

The only example I can think of is the city of Enoch. They, collectively, were so righteous that the city was taken up. However you don’t see that happening anywhere in Scripture to some individual.

Additionally, anyone have any insights on this topic?

I have heard the phrase that we are not saved individually, but as families. Also I am aware of the concept that God will reveal truths to the church as we collectively live more righteously.

I am mostly studying about this topic and am looking for insights in it

I believe this is a great topic for study.  Anciently the meaning of righteous was someone that covenants with G-d.  Here are some of my thoughts:

- The home teacher that had the greatest impact on my family was a guy to took special interest in our children.  He sometimes came to their sporting events or competitions.   Every Sunday he would talk to the kids about their sports or anything they were doing prior to sacrament meeting - rather then sitting in his pew reverently. 

- I have always been concerned with temple recommend interviews when I am asked if I am worthy to be at the temple.  One of the main reasons I personally attend the temple is to become more spiritually in tune (more worthy to be there).  Attending the temple - at least for me - is part of a repentance process and an effort to become more closer to being worthy to be in the presents of the Father and the Son.

- When I lived in Maryland working for the Defense Department - I was the only member in Anti Submarine Warfare division at the Naval Base where I worked.  I also worked for a company in Utah where most were LDS and was a lead engineer on projects where all the engineers were worthy LDS.  To be honest - I felt to be more of a instrument used by G-d when I was the only member.  Sometimes spiritual strength comes of necessity.  The big problem in being in Maryland is being so far from family - but this was also a blessing.  My wife and I had only been married for 3 years when we moved to Maryland where we had no friends or family - we became close having to rely on each other.  It was perhaps our greatest challenge and blessing and made our family very strong and united.

 

It is my personal belief that those that focus on their individual spirituality and worthiness - do so not understanding their covenants with G-d.  The first covenant with G-d is a turning from individual self righteousness to the care and love of others.  To morn with those that morn and comfort those in need of comfort.  Something I struggle with - weather I am in the midst of the saints are alone myself.  But it does seem there is more opportunity  to morn with those the morn and comfort those in need of comfort in the wilderness seeking out and looking for the one lost sheep than safely in the fold with the 99.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/14/2021 at 12:16 PM, Fether said:

The City of Enoch was so righteous that they were all taken up despite having no reason to believe the city was soon to be destroyed

After the inhabitants were all taken up, was the city destroyed or was it also taken up?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, romans8 said:

After the inhabitants were all taken up, was the city destroyed or was it also taken up?

They were taken up because had they stayed, they would have been drowned in the flood.

So "the city" in your question could mean many things:

  • The people -- no, they were taken up.
  • The buildings -- could be.  But if not, the flood destroyed them.
  • The plot of land -- this is a nonsensical question.  If you take up the plot of land, there will still be land below it unless you go to the center of the earth.  Then you got the flood and interaction with magma...  This really doesn't make sense.  So, what is it that you're getting at?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, romans8 said:

After the inhabitants were all taken up, was the city destroyed or was it also taken up?

I have pondered what it means to be taken up.  In the opening chapters of the Book of Revelation we read a witness of one who was called John that was "Called Up".  A review of his witness may assist you in your musing on such a matter.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think one of the main blessings of collective righteousness is more revelation from the prophet. When we have lived, as a group, the principles that are currently revealed we can then receive further light and knowledge. If the Church, all its members, had lived a righteous life where do you think the Church would be today?

How many more temples would we have? How many more members of the church would we have? How would it be to live in a place where all truly love each other? I think that would be also one of the greatest blessings. Imagine how easy ward callings, especially ministering, would be if all were living the commandments as a group. Talk about an ease of burden on the bishop, stake president, and ward leaders would feel.

Edited by Anddenex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I would think one of the main blessings of collective righteousness is more revelation from the prophet. When we have lived, as a group, the principles that are currently revealed we can then receive further light and knowledge. If the Church, all its members, had lived a righteous life where do you think the Church would be today?

How many more temples would we have? How many more members of the church would we have? How would it be to live in a place where all truly love each other? I think that would be also one of the greatest blessings. Imagine how easy ward callings, especially ministering, would be if all were living the commandments as a group. Talk about an easy of burden the bishop, stake president, and ward leaders would feel.

I do not know of anything worthwhile or outstanding that accomplished from following an easy path.  I initially thought that if I married a righteous lady (righteous meaning one that covenants with G-d) that marriage and raising a family would be easy.  The only think I think is easier is that there is someone willing to suffer together with me through all our trials and that there is someone that is willing to put up with me and the weirdness that comes from the personality of an engineer.

I do think there is something good that comes from living by faith in G-d in a community of faith.  Not because the road or trials are less difficult - but of a certainty it is worth it.  Even if there is not that much of a greater reward in the next life I can say, from my experiences - it has definitely been worth it.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Traveler said:

I do not know of anything worthwhile or outstanding that accomplished from following an easy path.  I initially thought that if I married a righteous lady (righteous meaning one that covenants with G-d) that marriage and raising a family would be easy.  The only think I think is easier is that there is someone willing to suffer together with me through all our trials and that there is someone that is willing to put up with me and the weirdness that comes from the personality of an engineer.

I do think there is something good that comes from living by faith in G-d in a community of faith.  Not because the road or trials are less difficult - but of a certainty it is worth it.  Even if there is not that much of a greater reward in the next life I can say, from my experiences - it has definitely been worth it.

 

The Traveler

I updated my response to what was actually being said, "ease of burden," not an easy path. My post doesn't mention an easy path.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Collectively,  when you associate with like-minded individuals who are striving toward righteousness, you have others who understand why you live the way you do, and will be a source of support and encouragement. That is why it’s essential to marry someone with the same spiritual/religious goals.

Attending the temple where every member there is 100% worthy to be there instead of being in a temple where 5% or so are not worthy to be there

Why would attending the temple with a group result in more worthy members in attendance, as opposed to attending the temple alone? Everyone still has to go through the same process to receive a Temple Recommend.

Edited by Jedi_Nephite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I updated my response to what was actually being said, "ease of burden," not an easy path. My post doesn't mention an easy path.

The reason I posted in that manner is because many interpret an "ease of burden" as being a life of less difficulty.  I know of a number of individuals that have left the church thinking it has failed them.  The served a mission, married in the temple, read their scriptures daily and pray often - and yet their marriage failed them.  They are not necessarily bitter but feel that because they were "faithful" that they should have (by right) been blessed.  Most commonly it seems that they reject the law of chastity thinking that they can find the happiness they lost through less commitment and more "freedom".  They quit going to church and associating with "active" members because they seem to feel that they are being judged.  I wonder if this reaction is itself an act of judgment (condemnation) to justify something they know is wrong and thus a type of gas lightening. 

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

Collectively,  when you associate with like-minded individuals who are striving toward righteousness, you have others who understand why you live the way you do, and will be a source of support and encouragement. That is why it’s essential to marry someone with the same spiritual/religious goals.

Some of my experiences have been almost the opposite.  Especially while I was in the military - once I made it known that I lived the Word Of Wisdom as a form of religious worship; my non member comrades would expect and make sure that I remain faithful.  Whereas many members are much less tolerant of mistakes - especially of the mistakes of those in leadership positions.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

Why would attending the temple with a group result in more worthy members in attendance, as opposed to attending the temple alone? Everyone still has to go through the same process to receive a Temple Recommend.

What I’m asking is whether the experience would change should everyone there be worthy vs 5% of the attendees having lied their way into the temple

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fether said:

What I’m asking is whether the experience would change should everyone there be worthy vs 5% of the attendees having lied their way into the temple

I wonder - but am not completely convinced that you may be "barking up the wrong tree".  Here is some of my thinking.  In the pre-existence heaven was divided into 3 basic groups of spirits.  Then here in mortality, the 3 sons of Noah symbolically represent 3 divisions of mankind.  Finely in the resurrection the children of mortality are essentially, once again, divided into 3 degrees of glory.  There is an assumption that the 3 degrees of glory are in 3 different places.  That there will be a dimensional separation of the more righteous from the rest.  As I have said - I am not convinced that is the case.  In essence that in eternity there are no walls or gates that physically force the separation of eternal beings any more than there are physical barriers to keep the unworthy from attending church.  In essence the only reason keeping the unworthy away or at a distance is their agency and choice not to fellowship with the glorified eternal Saints.

I tend to think that the societies of heaven are not so different than what we experience here on earth.  That it is the more righteous that will continue to be involved in the acts of loving service and sacrifice.  So I wonder if the acts of perfected worship and being in the service of others will be conducted by those of Celestial nature mostly toward those of lessor glory.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I wonder - but am not completely convinced that you may be "barking up the wrong tree".  Here is some of my thinking.  In the pre-existence heaven was divided into 3 basic groups of spirits.  Then here in mortality, the 3 sons of Noah symbolically represent 3 divisions of mankind.  Finely in the resurrection the children of mortality are essentially, once again, divided into 3 degrees of glory.  There is an assumption that the 3 degrees of glory are in 3 different places.  That there will be a dimensional separation of the more righteous from the rest.  As I have said - I am not convinced that is the case.  In essence that in eternity there are no walls or gates that physically force the separation of eternal beings any more than there are physical barriers to keep the unworthy from attending church.  In essence the only reason keeping the unworthy away or at a distance is their agency and choice not to fellowship with the glorified eternal Saints.

I tend to think that the societies of heaven are not so different than what we experience here on earth.  That it is the more righteous that will continue to be involved in the acts of loving service and sacrifice.  So I wonder if the acts of perfected worship and being in the service of others will be conducted by those of Celestial nature mostly toward those of lessor glory.

 

The Traveler

Maybe to simplify this more. When put into a group of Saints that are worshipping, Does one person who does not live the gospel nor tries to come into Christ effect the experience of the whole who all are seeking to do the best they can?

If the city of Enoch had 10 guys that were lusting after others and secretly stealing from others, would that have effected the translation of the city?

Edited by Fether

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fether said:

Maybe to simplify this more. When put into a group of Saints that are worshipping, Does one person who does not live the gospel nor tries to come into Christ effect the experience of the whole who all are seeking to do the best they can?

If the city of Enoch had 10 guys that were lusting after others and secretly stealing from others, would that have effected the translation of the city?

How to respond???  I am not a person that has emotional attachment with things.  My car (that I purchased new) is almost 30 years old - which is a bit of a problem for who ever is behind the many phone calls I get to renew my vehicle warranty.   I do not lock my car mostly because I doubt anyone would think to steal my car with all else that is available.   I also prefer that none of my windows are broken for the purpose of some cheep item inside.  I have zero desire to purchase a new car.  I do not carry any cash and almost never have.  I do not like money and I find no joy in carrying around money.    Things require care and I do not want to spend my time worrying and carrying about and for things.  My skis, bicycle and guitar are all important to me but easily replaced.  I do admit that I have things for convenience and to have them stolen would be inconvenient.   The point is - I am not driven by things.

I have speculated that the City of Enoch may not have been full of "things" worthy to be stolen.  I do not think it was the fashion capitol for anything of the world.  I doubt that the City of Enoch was a place to hook up at some bar for a one night stand.  Most likely the City of Enoch was not a "happening" place for any worldly thinker - so I think the types your are thinking of or worried about would most likely look for "greener" pastures. 

It may seem contrary to scripture but I do not think righteous people are about trying to figure out a way to get rid of the corrupt lesser desirables from among their midst.   Rather I see the desires to be exclusive, protectively locked up behind walls and gates separate from others to be foreign to a kind, loving compassionate Saint of G-d.  Perhaps there is such a thing as pure evil that will seek to do harm to all and anything good - it is just that I have not yet encountered such among any person I have encountered.

I have plenty to be worried about concerning my own transgressions as to be convinced that rather than to use up all my spiritual reserves that others are not up to Celestial possibilities - that I need to first convince myself to repent - but with the hope that in such repentance - I am not alone.

 

The Traveler

 

 

Edited by Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

How to respond???  I am not a person that has emotional attachment with things.  My car (that I purchased new) is almost 30 years old - which is a bit of a problem for who every is behind the many phone calls I get to renew my vehicle warranty.   I do not lock my car mostly because I doubt anyone would think to steal my car with all else that is available.   I also prefer that none of my windows are broken for the purpose of some cheep item inside.  I have zero desire to purchase a new car.  I do not carry any cash and almost never have.  I do not like money and I find no joy in carrying around money.    Things require care and I do not want to spend my time worrying and carrying about and for things.  My skis, bicycle and guitar are all important to me but easily replaced.  I do admit that I have things for convenience and to have them stolen would be inconvenient.   The point is - I am not driven by things.

I have speculated that the City of Enoch may not have been full of "things" worthy to be stolen.  I do not think it was the fashion capitol for anything of the world.  I doubt that the City of Enoch was a place to hook up at some bar for a one night stand.  Most likely the City of Enoch was not a "happening" place for any worldly thinker - so I think the types your are thinking of or worried about would most likely look for "greener" pastures. 

It may seem contrary to scripture but I do not think righteous people are about trying to figure out a way to get rid of the corrupt lesser desirables from among their midst.   Rather I see the desires to be exclusive, protectively locked up behind walls and gates separate from others to be foreign to a kind, loving compassionate Saint of G-d.  Perhaps there is such a thing as pure evil that will seek to do harm to all and anything good - it is just that I have not yet encountered such among any person I have encountered.

I have plenty to be worried about concerning my own transgressions as to be convinced that rather than to use up all my spiritual reserves that others are not up to Celestial possibilities - that I need to first convince myself to repent - but with the hope that in such repentance - I am not alone.

 

The Traveler

 

 

I’m not sure if I’m not making my question clear, if you are too focused on making a different point, or if your are just plain trolling.

Let me portray a specific example:

scenario 1: I and 30 other people are attending an endowment. The 30 people and I are seeking to come closer to God and repent of our sins. 
 

scenario 2:  I and 30 other people are attending an endowment. 10 people and I are seeking to come closer to God and repent of our sins. 20 other are there to secretly film the endowment, draw inappropriate pictures on the wall, and are all cheating on their spouses and lying about it to everyone. All this is done in secret where I would never be able to know.

question: Would my experience in the temple be different depending on which scenario I am in?

Im not concerned about kicking out the bad... literally just about whether our experience can be affected by the mindset, intentions, and states of others around us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Fether said:

I’m not sure if I’m not making my question clear, if you are too focused on making a different point, or if your are just plain trolling.

Let me portray a specific example:

scenario 1: I and 30 other people are attending an endowment. The 30 people and I are seeking to come closer to God and repent of our sins. 
 

scenario 2:  I and 30 other people are attending an endowment. 10 people and I are seeking to come closer to God and repent of our sins. 20 other are there to secretly film the endowment, draw inappropriate pictures on the wall, and are all cheating on their spouses and lying about it to everyone. All this is done in secret where I would never be able to know.

question: Would my experience in the temple be different depending on which scenario I am in?

Im not concerned about kicking out the bad... literally just about whether our experience can be affected by the mindset, intentions, and states of others around us.

On a number of occasion I have been at a place of worship and been lost in far away thoughts because the speaker was redundant and boring.   And then my wife whispers in my ear that she if filled with the spirit and overcome by the speaker and feeling of love.  I have often pondered how it is that two individuals sitting next to each other - that one is so inspired and uplifted and the other remains empty.  In the pre-existence a third part, while in the very presents of G-d, remained uninspired while others were elated and overcome and shouted for joy.

I think the results of our experiences are in line with where our heart, might, mind and strength is centered.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fether said:

The worthy. Does one had apple in the bunch effect the good ones?

I don't think so.  Especially since worthiness doesn't necessarily = righteousness.  Depending on how you define it, the temple is full of bad apples.   Not really my place to judge someone who lied to get their recommend as better or worse than the guy who loses his temper, or the habitual minor lawbreaking speeder, or the sinner going through disfellowshipment and at the temple as part of the process worked out with the bishop.

I suppose one could say the guy who lied to get into the temple is keeping his neighbors from being righteous enough to get translated like the folks in the city of Enoch, but then so am I.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this