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Suzie

Church Leaders Condemn Violence and Lawless Behavior

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The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles released a statement:

Principles of government that allow God’s children to maintain human dignity and freedom belong to all mankind.

(see Doctrine and Covenants 98:5).

With great concern we observe the political and cultural divisions in the United States and around the world. We condemn violence and lawless behavior, including the recent violence in Washington, D.C. and any suggestion of further violence. While The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is neutral in matters of party politics, we remind our members—whatever their individual political views—to be united in our commitment to the Savior, Jesus Christ, and His teachings. As His followers, we should treat one another and all of God’s children with respect, dignity, and love. No political or other affiliation should supersede that covenant and sacred responsibility.

We urge all people to remember the precious and fragile nature of freedom and peace. As citizens of the United States look ahead to the Inauguration of a new President, we urge our members to honor democratic institutions and processes, and to obey, honor, and sustain the law (see Articles of Faith 1:12).

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-leaders-condemn-violence-and-lawless-behavior-during-times-of-unrest

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@Suzie I have pondered under what circumstances I would destroy property and with the use of force take another person's life.  As a young 17 year old I pondered and struggled with these thoughts through a long night while in the military having just received orders that would take me into Vietnam during a time of war the following day.   I believe there is a fine line that divides standing to protect freedom and liberty and fighting against freedoms and liberties.  I would not be so bold as to attempt to tell anyone where that line must be drawn but only to say that I personally have the greatest of respect for those that stand before that line as I did while in the military and those officers (police) that do so each and every day that our society may have some semblance of peace. 

To be honest - having been there and pondered taking the life of other human beings - I realize that those that stand there are not so different from myself, with flaws and mistakes and a propensity to strike back in anger when sufficiently provoked.   I came away from my military experience with the determination that I would rather suffer and die myself than to be the means of brining suffering and death to others but I would if necessary and the only possibility.

I do not know how this country can move forward as the "United States" - without a willingness to listen to those with whom we disagree without hate and rage and a willingness to sacrifice something ourselves. 

 

The Traveler

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50 minutes ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

If only Antifa and BLM would heed the wisdom of the First Presidency.

I agree. You forgot quite a few people who violently stormed the capitol on January 6th and identified themselves as supporters of the President.

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Quote

With great concern we observe the political and cultural divisions in the United States and around the world. We condemn violence and lawless behavior...

Here they come...
661285072_Untitled-1copy.jpg.229d8ee24c969e6d36878295fd6af81e.jpg

Quote

Guatemala’s immigration agency distributed a video showing a couple of hundred men scuffling with soldiers, pushing and running through their lines, even as troops held hundreds more back.

 

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4 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Here they come...
661285072_Untitled-1copy.jpg.229d8ee24c969e6d36878295fd6af81e.jpg

 

I am surprised that there are not more - considering a promise of $2,000 stimulus per person for anyone the makes it in.

 

The Traveler

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Have we looked into the reasons why Hondurans are fleeing their country? Or are we just mocking immigrants/refugees because that's what the American Jesus would do?

Edited by Godless

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3 hours ago, Godless said:

Have we looked into the reasons why Nicaraguans are fleeing their country? Or are we just mocking immigrants/refugees because that's what the American Jesus would do?

A perfect example of why this country is polarizing.  One side demands that we treat every issue they think is important with utmost care and concern...  Yet when the other side presents something they are concerned about, the response to attack the character of the person expressing the concern and strawmaning their statements and belief.

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12 hours ago, Godless said:

Have we looked into the reasons why Nicaraguans are fleeing their country? Or are we just mocking immigrants/refugees because that's what the American Jesus would do?

I do not, and I for one would like to know.

 However, My feelings are definitely on a macro level, not on the individuals coming in. Here is what I think when I learn about these caravans or any type of illegal entry.

- So many entitled Americans think the US is an awful place... yet millions of people all over the world want in.

- There are, without a doubt, criminals in that mass looking to get. Drug dealers, mules, human traffickers, rapists, murders, etc. this is why we vet and don’t let everyone who knocks on our door in. It’s not fair to let 9000 people in to the US while putting at risk everyone who is already here

 

side note: One great way to ruin a conversation and prevent dialogue is to insult the views of the other person. Whenever I see someone throwing in ad hominem, I write that person off as “not having anything useful to say”. Whether that is true or not, I much prefer engaging In Conversation, not in verbal attacking (though I am far too familiar with the temptation to attack the person instead of defending the point).

Edited by Fether

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19 minutes ago, Fether said:

I do not and ai for one would like to know.

 However, My feelings are definitely on a macro level, not on the individuals coming in. Here is what I think when I learn about these caravans or any type of illegal entry.

- So many entitled Americans think the US is an awful place... yet millions of people all over the world want in.

- There are, without a doubt, criminals in that mass looking to get. Drug dealers, mules, human traffickers, rapists, murders, etc. this is why we vet and don’t let everyone who knocks on our door in. It’s not fair to let 9000 people in to the US while putting at risk everyone who is already here

 

side note: One great way to ruin a conversation and prevent dialogue is to insult the views of the other person. Whenever I see someone throwing in ad hominem, I write that person off as “not having anything useful to say”. Whether that is true or not, I much prefer engaging In Conversation, not in verbal attacking (though I am far too familiar with the temptation to attack the person instead of defending the point).

Indeed...  For example I am personally willing to help other individuals.  But if one of those individuals has a history of threatening violence against people trying to help, well my religion and faith would excuse me from going over.  My responsibly to stay alive for my family trumps, rendering temporary aid to a stranger.

When we move this up to the macro scale and immigration it still holds.  We help those we can.  But those that are threats we do not, because it is not safe to do so.  We have an obligation to protect those already here... the only way to do that is  to vet those incoming.  And large numbers make the vetting more difficult .  To have this concerned be so toxicly twisted into pure selfishness and mocking and scorning of the poor an needy shows the fundamental dishonesty of the statement.  A variation of this dishonesty is to claim that we think ALL immigrants are criminals and dangerous.  We are not saying that they ALL are.  We are saying that the odds are that small subset of them are, and that subset needs to be dealt with for the protection of all.

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5 hours ago, Godless said:

Have we looked into the reasons why Nicaraguans are fleeing their country? Or are we just mocking immigrants/refugees because that's what the American Jesus would do?

This is a false and hateful statement. No one here has mocked Nicaraguans, yet the resident self-proclaimed atheist sees fit to lecture us on what he snidely calls "the American Jesus".

I have had it with these kinds of lies and the apparent lack of any effort at all to moderate such verbal feces on this, an ostensibly LDS-oriented site.

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Thank you, @estradling75 and @Fether for approaching this topic from a reasonable stance (though I'm not sure how we shifted gears to Central American refugees so abruptly 🤨). I agree 100% that this isn't a black-and-white issue, and I'm certainly not advocating for open borders. It's hard to approach the immigration issue from a national security standpoint while maintaining a compassionate mindset, but that's the fine line that we have seek out. Making cheap jokes about people fleeing their homes seems counterproductive to that. Unfortunately, I feel like attitudes like that have become too common in recent years.

As for my tone earlier, I am deeply sorry. I saw the responses above mine while I was getting ready for work, and lacking time to type out a measured response, I chose snark over substance. That was ill-advised and inappropriate. I recall remarking in a different thread that the heated nature of some of the discussions in over the past several months could potentially sour your church's image to observers who may be wavering in their faith or new to it. While I stand by my belief that some here could benefit from some self-reflection about how their words reflect their faith, it's not my place as an outsider to kick the hornet's nest, and I regret my role in contributing to the toxicity that sometimes rears its head on this site. To say that the last year has done put a strain on my mental health would be a massive understatement. And while that absolutely does not excuse by behavior here, I think it makes a strong case for walking away. I've tried several times in recent months, but I keep finding myself coming back, and I keep regretting it.

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FWIW, my main issue with Biden's plan (and most immigration legislation pre-Trump) is that they seem to reward illegal immigration (and I'm not talking about refugees or asylum seekers). What about those persons who want to migrate legally? The system is failing them and has been failing them for years, they are waiting patiently in their home countries for decades (which I think is absolutely ridiculous) and now laws will be passed to reward those who entered the country illegally. How fair is that? We are rewarding those breaking the law and punishing those who are being honest? And even though there are plans to reduce their waiting time, it will not be a priority. I don't know if there is a solution that can benefit/help all at the same time but this particular point bugs me.

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1 hour ago, Godless said:

 To say that the last year has done put a strain on my mental health would be a massive understatement. And while that absolutely does not excuse by behavior here, I think it makes a strong case for walking away. I've tried several times in recent months, but I keep finding myself coming back, and I keep regretting it.

Godless, I am very sorry to read this. I hope 2021 can be a better year for you! We don't know each other but I hope you know that I value and appreciate your contributions. I would hate to see you taking a break but of course, you need to do what is best for your health. I have taken my own sabbaticals over the years and it worked very well. I also use the ignore feature (if It is too much or I find a poster too combative/argumentative). At the end of it all, we are supposed to be here sharing our views and having a good time! Wishing you well.

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2 hours ago, Godless said:

To say that the last year has done put a strain on my mental health would be a massive understatement. And while that absolutely does not excuse by behavior here, I think it makes a strong case for walking away. I've tried several times in recent months, but I keep finding myself coming back, and I keep regretting it.

I'm seeing these notions all over the place.  It's true for many of us.   My favorite arguing buddy and I have taken a break from arguing with each other - it just got too contentious and negative.    

2021 needs to see more 'disagreeing agreeably' and less making it personal.  (I'm trying to sign myself up for this notion, y'all are welcome to join me if you like.)

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5 hours ago, Suzie said:

FWIW, my main issue with Biden's plan (and most immigration legislation pre-Trump) is that they seem to reward illegal immigration (and I'm not talking about refugees or asylum seekers). What about those persons who want to migrate legally? The system is failing them and has been failing them for years, they are waiting patiently in their home countries for decades (which I think is absolutely ridiculous) and now laws will be passed to reward those who entered the country illegally. How fair is that? We are rewarding those breaking the law and punishing those who are being honest? And even though there are plans to reduce their waiting time, it will not be a priority. I don't know if there is a solution that can benefit/help all at the same time but this particular point bugs me.

Neither party has done right with immigration.  Not only like you said is it a slap in the face to those that did it right (like my mother).  It also creates a group of people that are easy prey for criminals...  Illegals do not want to go to the cops out of fear of being deported.. so they get preyed on... used, and abused because criminals think they can get away with it.  You want to talk about Human Rights abuses, or Humanitarian Crisis will there is a big one right here in our borders.  And both parties do nothing but call the other party names over it

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Sad reality is, one reliable way to get a nation to fall, is to have lots of unassimilated undocumented immigrants.  We're watching it happen in France and other European nations.   You think the US multigenerational legacy of issues surrounding slavery and race are bad?  How about areas where you "just don't go" because people are implementing Sharia law, and enforcing it with roving bands of machete-wielding enforcers.   Google "beheadings in France", and make sure you scroll down enough to get a bunch of years of results.

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21 hours ago, Suzie said:

FWIW, my main issue with Biden's plan (and most immigration legislation pre-Trump) is that they seem to reward illegal immigration (and I'm not talking about refugees or asylum seekers). What about those persons who want to migrate legally? The system is failing them and has been failing them for years, they are waiting patiently in their home countries for decades (which I think is absolutely ridiculous) and now laws will be passed to reward those who entered the country illegally. How fair is that? We are rewarding those breaking the law and punishing those who are being honest? And even though there are plans to reduce their waiting time, it will not be a priority. I don't know if there is a solution that can benefit/help all at the same time but this particular point bugs me.

I have a family member that has come t the US legally (not immediate family member, extended family) who has not been able to become a citizen for over 5 years now.  It would strike me as particularly cruel in a turn of fate if those who come in illegally gain immediate citizenship vs. those who try to go the legal route.

On the otherhand, the US could have easier routes for those who wish to immigrate.  There are reasons to be fearful of many of those coming from the South of the Border.  They are coming from poverty and many are seeking a better life from it.  I imagine if there were others of us that had the choice between seeing our children and families starve to death or trying to save them from that hardship, we would choose to try to cross over borders and nations anyway we could find.  At the same time there is a vast amount of violence (in Honduras for example) which propagate a massive amount of suffering and death from the savage gangs and daily skirmishes they bring upon the citizens of the nations they reside in.  Many are fleeing this violence in order to find a better life in a society they see as more stable.

Unfortunately, many of them simply think they can travel and get a better life rather than changing their own families first.  This has caused the rise of many of those same gangs found in those nations which cause such violence to be established in the US.  In some of the cities in the Southwest and California there are areas where police now do not go as much and the threats are just as real as any of those nations South of the Border.  Those immigrants have brought the same gangs and violence with them.  Instead of changing, they simply brought it with them.  They have brought the problem to us and with every new immigrant of that same mindset, brings us closer to that same anarchy found in their nations which they say they are fleeing. 

I don't have the solution to this problem.  You want to be compassionate to those that truly want to immigrate to the US and want to be a benefit to our society, but at the same time if we do not screen the bad elements out, we eventually could become just like those nations filled with violence that they are trying to escape from.

Bringing this full circle..of course, with the route that many are following currently in the US both on the Far Right and the Far Left, it may be that we create our own violence among each other soon enough.  If we do not heed the wise counsel of our Prophets and Apostles (and honestly, almost all Americans are not members of the Church and not listen to the leaders of our church...but perhaps it would merely just take the members of our church to be an example first if nothing else) it could be that we devolve into such dissension that violence will continue rising among those who are divided in our nation.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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Of course the church leaders are right. Reasoned conservatives and liberals agreed. As for the diversion to immigration, shame on the richest, most powerful nation on earth, for having such as backlogged, ineffective immigration system. If the incoming POTUS wants to polish his moderate credentials, passing an intelligent immigration reform bill would go far. Stop the wall, to please liberals. Overhaul the legacy equipment and data systems that makeup the application system to deal with the real problem. And, of course, beef up electronic, technological, and law enforcement monitoring and security, to please conservatives. I suspect that if the moderate majority could clean up our system, there would be little incentive for mass caravans.

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10 hours ago, mirkwood said:

I highly doubt that the incoming administration has any intention of fixing immigration.  I hope I'm wrong, but I won't hold my breath.

I would be pleasantly surprised if they did...  The best we have had in a long time on this issue was Trump, and he worked through executive orders and abrasive personalty.

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One side wants border security, points-based entry. One side wants green cards, path to citizenship. A permanent, winning deal always seems obvious, and never manages to show up.

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One of the great problems is that we see the border from one side - the side we live on.  The problem at the border is far more complex than what is see from our unique perspective.  A couple of years ago I had a long talk with a engineer working on the same project I was working - he lives in Mexico.  From his perspective there are greater problems at the borders for Mexicans than those of us in the USA.  We see human trafficking (mostly illegal alliins)  and drugs.  Mexicans see the border as a flow of black market operations.  For example, crime syndicates operate in Mexico to bring black market goods to the USA.  The petroleum in Mexico is owned by the government and is the largest known reserves in the world.  Crime syndicates rob the Mexicans of both crude and refined petroleum products and sell it to US companies under sanctions made legal by our government.

Vast amounts of weapons cross the border from the US into Mexico.  Not just civilian guns and ammunitions but military grade anti tank and anti aircraft weapons.  Mexico is also used by US based crime syndicates to smuggle cash that is laundered for legal international purchases - often for US businesses, land and technology.  I personally believe that some of the laundered money finds its was back to the USA and into politician pockets through family owned international businesses (case in point - Hunter Biden) dealings and so called charitable organizations.

Much of Mexican politics is controlled by crime - not just the drug cartels but by crime organizations from the USA.  Likewise - much of our government is controlled by the same organizations.  Most of the monies supplied for US political campaigns comes from businesses moguls and organizations and very little from individual private citizens of the middle class.  I am reminded of Oran Hatch that while running a while back for the US Senate to represent Utah - announced that he was not even going to try to raise money among the citizens of Utah because he already had sufficient funds from outside sources.  Although Senator Romney has not made any comments along this line to the public - I expect the same monetary control operates within his organization - And I suspect what monetary pressures apply to Romney are many fold concerning representatives of more influential states.

 

The Traveler 

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