NeuroTypical

President Nelson vaccinated

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41 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

The Govt. can't give this stuff away any longer, that should be their clue to leave us alone now.

I was down with "2 weeks to flatten the curve".  I went along with several months of quarantine, because this thing had lots of risky unknowns and we don't know how bad.  I was ok with most of the "change everyone's behavior to protect our at-risk people, especially those who can't really do anything to protect themselves".  

With the vaccine rollout, that last thing doesn't exist any more.  I'm absolutely comfortable with "time to go back to normal, if you're worried about COVID, get a vaccine or isolate yourself".  I think that's a good public expression of the righteous principle of agency.  There's a choice now.  There are now zero people left in my county, my state, my country that I should protect.   (Well, kid #2 has another week before her 2nd shot is "fully effective".)

I'm happy with the govt keeping it available, and using every outlet at it's disposal to push good information about the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.  I'm ok with them reaching out to the low-information demographics, the superstitious, the anti-science, the conspiracy theorists, the plain old dumb-as-doornails folks who are just too dumb for their own good. 

Heck, I'm even ok with whatever decisions individuals, families, and private businesses want to make.  If Walmart wants to demand proof of vaccination to enter their stores, I'd think it was a dumb choice, but I wouldn't call foul.  (I don't think they'll do anything even close to that, just using an extreme to illustrate a principle.)  I ain't for forcing a baker to serve who he doesn't want to, I ain't for forcing a business to make decisions that I want them to make. 

I suppose I'm ok with good old fashion, healthy, constitutional, states fighting with each other about who they let into their states.  I think it's dumb, but it's constitutional, for the federal government to step in and use it's power to regulate interstate commerce along these lines.  Do I believe God inspired the founders, and the constitution is an inspired document, or don't I?

Anyone wants to change my mind about any of this, show me the data of who is being hospitalized and dying, broken down by who is vaccinated, and who is unvaccinated.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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9 hours ago, Traveler said:

Yes the shot is technically gene therapy and not a vaccine - I was informed that vaccines contain weakened or otherwise diminished virous that triggers the immune system. 

Traveler, please don't take this personally, but you have a history of trying to claim things are true, but being unable or unwilling to cite your source, or provide any evidence.   I mean, don't get me wrong, you get to believe whatever you wish.  But your ability to have an unsourced claim taken seriously by others on this topic, is limited. 

I don't suppose you'd be willing to cite your source, so we can evaluate it?  Please remember, some vague statement like  "It was reported by the CDC" is not citing a source.

 

Edited by NeuroTypical

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23 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

I have no doubt that there are lawyers on the sideline waiting to represent individuals who refused the jab and lost their jobs as a result of it.

Sounds like it is time to get into the Vaccine ID/passport forgery business. Hot market😉

I’m sure there would be too, and we all, of course, like to think of ourselves as the heroic martyrs who would die for our beliefs. It makes us feel noble. 
 

But I am right.

In reality, if someone forced you* to get a shot or watch your family starve to death, you say you wouldn't, and indeed there would be some who die on the hill. However the overwhelming majority of people would swallow their pride and take the shot. 
 

* Again, to be clear, I don’t mean “you” as in @NeedleinA, and I’m not in favor or what I am describing. 

Edited by LDSGator

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10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Traveler, please don't take this personally, but you have a history of trying to claim things are true, but being unable or unwilling to cite your source, or provide any evidence.   I mean, don't get me wrong, you get to believe whatever you wish.  But your ability to have an opinion taken seriously by others on this topic, is limited. 

I don't suppose you'd be willing to cite your source, so we can evaluate it?  Please remember, some vague statement like  "It was reported by the CDC" is not citing a source.

 

Just to back up what @NeuroTypical said, I also think you are a great guy @Traveler, even though I disagree with you.

Edited by LDSGator

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Imagine being the Mayor of New York, the largest city in the United States of America, and trying to convenience people to inject themselves for a free side order of fries.

 

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9 hours ago, mirkwood said:

Then why did you single @LDSGator and myself out?

I did not intend to single anyone out but rather join in the discussion the two of you were having and to include anyone else interested. 

From my own experience with COVID-19 there were 3 days between when I was infected before I knew I had been infected - during which time I spent with others and could have passed on the virus though I had no symptoms.  But I did not.  My immune system works quite well.  In the last few years the sickest I have been was when I received the second singles shot and was quite sick for 24 hours.  I am of the mind that my skiing (in winter) and cycling (the rest of the year) has something to do with not getting sick.  I believe that healthy individuals that are active and eat intelligently seldom get sick and when they do - it is seldom severer.   I believe such healthy individuals are less likely to spread something even during a pandemic.  At least that would explain why I did not spread COVID-19.

From the data - the shot is 95% effective - which means that those most at risk can still get sick even if they have the shot and since a large % of those that contract the virus will never show symptoms and are less likely to spread the virus than those that develop symptoms.  It is my understanding that the worse the symptoms the more likely that the virus will be spread.  This would mean that the greatest efforts should be made in contract tracing those with symptoms.

It was my intent not to get the shot; mainly because I was infected, showed no symptoms and recovered.  However, my wife was in tears when I had a chance and did not get the shot and did not.  Her sister convinced her that I was putting myself, my beloved wife and everybody else in critical danger for not getting the shot.  There are things more important to me than my opinion and in some cases - even my desires.  I did it for my wife.  The truth is that I so not mind sacrificing for others.  For me it is kind of like Joseph Smith Jr. giving himself up before he was murdered.

I believe that everyone has a right to choice - even when their choices are sick and wrong - but in the case of you @LDSGator- I do not believe such your choices in this manner are something for which I ought to have personal concerns.  As far as I can determine - you both made the correct choice.

There are some things that the medical profession is very good at doing - but more and more I am coming to understand that freedom only comes with responsibility.  Thus if someone relinquishes their responsibility for their own health (and I could make a long list of things people deliberately do compromise their health) to someone or something else - That is their real choice with whatever consequences that will be.  But it is no longer their choice.

 

The Traveler

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10 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I did not intend to single anyone out but rather join in the discussion the two of you were having and to include anyone else interested. 

 

ok

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6 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Traveler, please don't take this personally, but you have a history of trying to claim things are true, but being unable or unwilling to cite your source, or provide any evidence.   I mean, don't get me wrong, you get to believe whatever you wish.  But your ability to have an unsourced claim taken seriously by others on this topic, is limited. 

I don't suppose you'd be willing to cite your source, so we can evaluate it?  Please remember, some vague statement like  "It was reported by the CDC" is not citing a source.

 

Before I had the shot I specifically asked my doctor for information.  In the course of our discussion I was informed of the difference between a vaccine and gene therapy.  I asked why the shot is called a vaccine and not gene therapy - he had no answer but was of the opinion that public may not respond well if the shot was called gene therapy.

On the other hand I have learned that with many subjects there are individuals that will not take any information seriously that does not support their premise.   The problem with COVID is that there are so many sources - it would hardly matter what one's source is.  But in this case - if you have information that the shot is, by medical definition, a vaccine and not the result of gene therapy research and is actually not gene therapy - I would be most interested in how you came by such an opinion.

 

The Traveler

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Thanks Traveler, fairly answered. 

57 minutes ago, Traveler said:

if you have information that the shot is, by medical definition, a vaccine and not the result of gene therapy research and is actually not gene therapy - I would be most interested in how you came by such an opinion.

Sure.

1. Gene Therapy:

The FDA's definition of Gene Therapy is "Human gene therapy seeks to modify or manipulate the expression of a gene or to alter the biological properties of living cells for therapeutic use".   Source: https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/cellular-gene-therapy-products/what-gene-therapy

The Mayo Clinic's definition is "Gene therapy involves altering the genes inside your body's cells in an effort to treat or stop disease."   Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/gene-therapy/about/pac-20384619

A 2001 article published in JAMA, "Gene and Stem Cell Therapies", says "Gene therapy can be most simply defined as the genetic modification of cells to produce a therapeutic effect."  Source: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/193525  It quotes a 1993 article published in Science. 

 

2. Vaccines:

The FDA says  "Vaccination stimulates the body’s immune system to build up defenses against the infectious bacteria or virus (organism) without causing the disease."  Source: https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/development-approval-process-cber/vaccine-development-101  (note - no mention of modifying or manipulating genes or DNA).

The CDC defines a vaccine as "A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease."  Source: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm (also note the lack of mention of changing the target's genes or DNA).

 

3. Moderna and Pfizer COVID vaccines:   These are indeed new technology, that uses an mRNA string instead of weakened/dead COVID virus.  But there is zero modification/alteration of human DNA/genes happening.  @LDSGator already cited some articles, here they are again.    They quote the CDC:

Quote

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/03/17/covid-19-mrna-vaccines-are-not-gene-therapy-as-some-are-claiming/amp/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-22/are-mrna-covid-vaccines-risky-what-the-experts-say-quicktake#:~:text=While the messenger RNA they,Control and Prevention explains.

“While the messenger RNA they employ is a type of genetic material, the vaccines differ from what is typically thought of as gene therapy in that they do not change the DNA inside cells. “They do not affect or interact with our DNA in any way,” the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention explains

So it would seem that the new mRNA vaccines absolutely fail to meet the definition of "gene therapy", in that it doesn't modify/alter human DNA.  And it would seem they absolutely meet the FDA and CDC definitions of a vaccine, in that it stimulates the body's immune system to produce immunity.  Would you concur?

Also, when the CDC, FDA, Mayo Clinic, and scientific journals across decades, all seem to be in agreement, and "Some guy on the internet says his doctor said something else", can you understand why people might be willing to discard the random internet guy and his random doctor's opinion, instead going with what appears to be broad international multidecade consensus?

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Vaccine or not vaccine.  Gene therapy and not gene therapy.

When I grew up there was a clear distinction between "immigrate" & "emmigrate".  There was a difference between "further" and "farther".  But today, there are no distinctions between them.  Such semantic shift happens quite easily with a combination of near homonyms and widespread ignorance.

With technology, it isn't due to widespread ignorance, but because of rapid technological advancement.  Sometimes society comes up with new things so fast that are the result of multiple parties all pursuing the same technology in different ways that no one is really calling dibs on naming it.  So they just use the same name as something that is about 95% the same thing and elicits the exact same reponse as a vaccine.  So why the problem with calling it a vaccine.

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:
Quote

“While the messenger RNA they employ is a type of genetic material, the vaccines differ from what is typically thought of as gene therapy in that they do not change the DNA inside cells. “They do not affect or interact with our DNA in any way,” the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention explains

So it would seem that the new mRNA vaccines absolutely fail to meet the definition of "gene therapy", in that it doesn't modify/alter human DNA.  And it would seem they absolutely meet the FDA and CDC definitions of a vaccine, in that it stimulates the body's immune system to produce immunity.  Would you concur?

Also, when the CDC, FDA, Mayo Clinic, and scientific journals across decades, all seem to be in agreement, and "Some guy on the internet says his doctor said something else", can you understand why people might be willing to discard the random internet guy and his random doctor's opinion, instead going with what appears to be broad international multidecade consensus?

Furthermore, why would they use the mRNA? I assume because it's the mRNA utilized by the virus. If that's the case, then it's stretching semantics to call that somehow intrinsically different from using weakened or killed viruses or surface proteins. It is of the spirit and nature of a vaccine. What else can you reasonably call it, except to make up a new term for it that will be defined as, "A vaccine that targets based on virus-utilized mRNA instead of actual virus proteins or DNA/RNA"?

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5 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe that everyone has a right to choice - even when their choices are sick and wrong - but in the case of you @LDSGator- I do not believe such your choices in this manner are something for which I ought to have personal concerns.  As far as I can determine - you both made the correct choice.

Thank you my friend. 

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On 5/14/2021 at 1:41 AM, Carborendum said:

HOLD THE PHONE!!! THE WORLD IS DEFINITELY COMING TO AN END.

I just sat down with a bowl of rice and kim chee, and... well... it didn't taste good. Why of all the curses I could have to bear!! Why this one!?!?!?

  • Wars and rumors of wars... check.
  • Sin on the level of Sodom and Gummorah... check.
  • Let me look out the window... yup there are the swarm of giant locusts coming to consume all my crops and even all our flesh.  Okay, okay, there was one cricket that chirped a little loudly.  But for KIM CHEE's SAKE!!!
  • I'll just wait until tonight to see if the moon has turned to blood. But it is a sliver of a crescent tonight.  Maybe I won't be able to tell.  But is not the redness of the kim chee sufficient to satisfy that prophecy.  I say "Yea!" and again I say, "yea, verily."

Wo be unto the world that is filled with flat flavorless kim chee.  What?  You say it is the after affects of COVID?  Whew!  That's a relief.  Here I thought that the end of the world was happening because of plagues hitting the earth like it has never seen before.  Glad to hear that isn't the case.

I'm kind of puzzled and surprised. You seem to be suggesting that the existence of kim chee is not one of the global disasters preceding the end of the world? 

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21 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I'm kind of puzzled and surprised. You seem to be suggesting that the existence of kim chee is not one of the global disasters preceding the end of the world? 

The streets of the Celestial Kingdom, my friend.

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16 hours ago, Vort said:

Furthermore, why would they use the mRNA? I assume because it's the mRNA utilized by the virus. If that's the case, then it's stretching semantics to call that somehow intrinsically different from using weakened or killed viruses or surface proteins. It is of the spirit and nature of a vaccine. What else can you reasonably call it, except to make up a new term for it that will be defined as, "A vaccine that targets based on virus-utilized mRNA instead of actual virus proteins or DNA/RNA"?

For those that desire sources - to dig deeper the following comes from Chapter 5 of "Biochemistry" 5th edition

Quote

Genes specify the kinds of proteins that are made by cells, but DNA is not the direct template for protein synthesis. Rather, the templates for protein synthesis are RNA (ribonucleic acid) molecules. In particular, a class of RNA molecules called messenger RNA (mRNA) are the information-carrying intermediates in protein synthesis. Other RNA molecules, such as transfer RNA (tRNA) and ribosomal RNA (rRNA), are part of the protein-synthesizing machinery. All forms of cellular RNA are synthesized by RNA polymerases that take instructions from DNA templates. This process of transcription is followed by translation, the synthesis of proteins according to instructions given by mRNA templates. Thus, the flow of genetic information, or gene expression, in normal cells is:

Image ch5e1.jpg

This flow of information is dependent on the genetic code, which defines the relation between the sequence of bases in DNA (or its mRNA transcript) and the sequence of amino acids in a protein. The code is nearly the same in all organisms: a sequence of three bases, called a codon, specifies an amino acid. Codons in mRNA are read sequentially by tRNA molecules, which serve as adaptors in protein synthesis. Protein synthesis takes place on ribosomes, which are complex assemblies of rRNAs and more than 50 kinds of proteins.

I thought to add another item to this discussion.  That is, how does the COVID-19 causes death.  I was informed that the actual cause of death (my doctor) is what is called a "Cytokine Storm" that is set off by the COVID-19 virous.  Again, we can get into semantics (of which I am not an expert) but there are some of the opinion that outside of cytokine storm immune failure we should not say that a person died of COVID-19.   But we are now getting into debates were even the experts are at some odds because COVID-19 can be somewhat of an indirect killer, especially for example, those with respiratory degeneration from age, smoking or other causes.

Again - I am not the expert.  However, COVID-19 looks very different to me than pandemic examples of the past, both in what appears to be the origin as well as the cure.  I am not convinced that the virus is what we would think of as "natural".  I am also impressed in the current solution - I do not believe for a moment that if left to politics as usual to our current circumstance that we would have a mRNA solution.  But I will leave it as an exercise to the reader if we are looking at an new innovative type of therapy more closely related to gene manipulation verses the concept of modified virus (vaccine) to "train" one's immune system to produce the correct antibodies. 

It also appears to me that those that do not desire "the shot" are genuinely concerned with the misinformation that abounds in our current political arena.  I cannot say that I blame them.  Fox News reported (Tucker Carlson) that at least half of the "experts" at the CDC have not yet summited to "The Shot".  There appears to me to be sufficient fodder to justify whatever position one wishes to take and that we can also justify any political position to this mess.  This I believe can only lead to lack of trust and without trust a society will die inside as surely as an organism will die from within;  from a cytokine storm.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Again, we can get into semantics (of which I am not an expert) but there are some of the opinion that outside of cytokine storm immune failure we should not say that a person died of COVID-19.   But we are now getting into debates were even the experts are at some odds because COVID-19 can be somewhat of an indirect killer, especially for example, those with respiratory degeneration from age, smoking or other causes.

I'm no expert either, and I totally agree with how figuring out what killed someone is a debatable inexact science.  If you catch COVID, your odds of dying go up exponentially with age, but then again, the odds of dying in general go up exponentially with age.   Heart disease, obesity, respiratory issues are co-morbidities, but how do we know that COVID isn't the co-morbidity of those things instead?  What goes on the death certificate and why?   And when overworked and underfunded coroner's offices are having a bunch of deaths, and political pressure, what do they end up just putting down?

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On 5/14/2021 at 8:55 AM, NeedleinA said:

Using threats of "no jab, no job" isn't going to do it.

Very interesting. 
OSHA (Occupational Health and Safety Administration) said:

Quote

If you require your employees to be vaccinated as a condition of employment (i.e., for work-related reasons), then any adverse reaction to the COVID-19 vaccine is work-related. The adverse reaction is recordable if it is a new case under 29 CFR 1904.6 and meets one or more of the general recording criteria in 29 CFR 1904.7.

Every employee who was/is required to get the jab should be aware of this.

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2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Let’s talk about my safety. I’ve read some bad side-effects from tricking your body into believing it has COVID. If I don’t want the vaccine, what precautions are vaccinated people taking to keep from giving it to me?

After my second shot I felt absolutely awful for 24 hours. Aches, fever. @Midwest LDS (shout out to my boy! Love you bro!) warned me about them and he was so right. 

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I just got some good news today.  The brother in our ward who had the stroke (COVID related) was asked to speak today.  Apparently he's been going through much therapy.  His speech is almost normal. 

Just a couple months ago, he sounded like a disabled person.  But today it only showed up in a few difficult sounds.  In a way he sounded like Matthew McConaughey.

It felt so good to see his progress.

Edited by Carborendum

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