NeuroTypical

President Nelson vaccinated

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On 3/31/2021 at 3:12 PM, DennisTate said:

Although I do comprehend President  Nelson's reasoning......

........  

 

I am not sure you really do - President Nelson was the leading expert in heart surgery and a world renown physician.  

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......

"They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:18)

From Luke 4:12 : "And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

 

The Traveler

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9 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am not sure you really do - President Nelson was the leading expert in heart surgery and a world renown physician.  

From Luke 4:12 : "And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

 

The Traveler

Yes.. I had read that about him......

but that could lead him to be somewhat more trusting of the motives plus the capabilities of the professionals who produced certain variations of the Covid 19 vaccines....( .than I would tend to be.).............  and there is a possibility that my suspicions that the professionals who produced these vaccines MAY NOT HAVE BEEN PRAYING DAILY  for wisdom and guidance by the Holy Spirit in their research???????????

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An interesting update on this front:

The new Church Handbook updates strongly encourages vaccination and advises that un-vaccinated missionaries will most likely serve in their home countries.  https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/3/31/22359997/vaccinations-protect-health-and-preserve-life-latter-day-saint-handbook-update-mormon-lds

While neither of these are really new updates (the Church has been pro-vaccine for decades), it is a very potent and timely reminder.  

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3 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

An interesting update on this front:

The new Church Handbook updates strongly encourages vaccination and advises that un-vaccinated missionaries will most likely serve in their home countries.  https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/3/31/22359997/vaccinations-protect-health-and-preserve-life-latter-day-saint-handbook-update-mormon-lds

While neither of these are really new updates (the Church has been pro-vaccine for decades), it is a very potent and timely reminder.  

This is a wise approach......

this is somewhat similar to how my wife and I think of this topic so far.  We want to delay our taking a vaccine until more information comes out about the side effects and.......  if and when we may need to travel.... may be the time when we make our final decision on whether or not to get vaccinated.... and which brand of vaccine to choose.  

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On 4/2/2021 at 10:08 AM, Jane_Doe said:

An interesting update on this front:

The new Church Handbook updates strongly encourages vaccination and advises that un-vaccinated missionaries will most likely serve in their home countries.  https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/3/31/22359997/vaccinations-protect-health-and-preserve-life-latter-day-saint-handbook-update-mormon-lds

While neither of these are really new updates (the Church has been pro-vaccine for decades), it is a very potent and timely reminder.  

It's my personal random thoughts that this is, at least in small part, a stand in what sometimes seems like a heck of a lot of vaccine confusion. Similar in tone with from when the church made a stand against energy healing, etc. I have witnessed a subset of church members who are very much into natural healing to the point it's a religion in itself. I've seen church members condemning those who do vaccinate, stating they're praying the church bans vaccines, etc. A small group, to be sure, but it's out there.

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1 hour ago, Backroads said:

 I've seen church members condemning those who do vaccinate, stating they're praying the church bans vaccines, etc. A small group, to be sure, but it's out there.

Not all of us non Covid vaccineites are in that crowd.

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2 hours ago, mirkwood said:

Yes it did.

 FTR, I am pro vaccine, just not flu vaccines.  I've never had one.

Because the flu vaccine is a crap shoot every year...  Given the amount of time it takes to create a vaccine the vaccine makers have to "guess" which strains of the flu are most likely to be making the rounds in the up coming flu season...  And often they are wrong.  So you take a vaccine which is designed to trigger your bodies reaction (aka make you safely sick for a bit) and it does nothing against the flu that is going round because they got the wrong strain..

Vaccines can be wonderful and powerful tools but they are not a magic bullet.

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2 hours ago, mirkwood said:

 FTR, I am pro vaccine, just not flu vaccines.  I've never had one.

Then why is this the most-read news article on your browser history?

 

IMG_5093[1].JPG

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12 hours ago, mirkwood said:

Heywaitaminute...mormongator is that you posting under an alias?!?!?!?

We discuss you regularly in Facebook messenger.   Actually, he drove across several states last year to meet me here in Colorado, so we could discuss you face to face.  :)

 

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On 4/2/2021 at 9:08 AM, Jane_Doe said:

An interesting update on this front:

The new Church Handbook updates strongly encourages vaccination and advises that un-vaccinated missionaries will most likely serve in their home countries.  https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/3/31/22359997/vaccinations-protect-health-and-preserve-life-latter-day-saint-handbook-update-mormon-lds

While neither of these are really new updates (the Church has been pro-vaccine for decades), it is a very potent and timely reminder.  

I remember lining up on my first day in the MTC and receiving 3 or 4 vaccine shots in a row. My shoulder was sore for a week so I don't think that's a new policy. While I regularly receive the flu vaccine, I have no problem with anyone (including myself) opting out of the current COVID-19 gene therapies that create spike proteins. As an investor I have watched companies work for years on true vaccines that took 7-10 years to develop. I would never take an adjuvant developed in an emergency setting right out of the gate. Perhaps too many people have forgotten the Dengvaxia tragedy in the Philippines. Experts had declared Dengvaxia safe, but the experts were wrong. The very fact that new side effects (i.e. blood clotting) have been discovered that were not anticipated from the computer modeling is an indication of the wisdom of taking time in these matters IMHO.

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/moderna-pfizer-vaccines-blood-clots-inflammation-brain-heart/

Edited by clwnuke

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On 4/12/2021 at 11:44 PM, clwnuke said:

I remember lining up on my first day in the MTC and receiving 3 or 4 vaccine shots in a row. My shoulder was sore for a week so I don't think that's a new policy. While I regularly receive the flu vaccine, I have no problem with anyone (including myself) opting out of the current COVID-19 gene therapies that create spike proteins. As an investor I have watched companies work for years on true vaccines that took 7-10 years to develop. I would never take an adjuvant developed in an emergency setting right out of the gate. Perhaps too many people have forgotten the Dengvaxia tragedy in the Philippines. Experts had declared Dengvaxia safe, but the experts were wrong. The very fact that new side effects (i.e. blood clotting) have been discovered that were not anticipated from the computer modeling is an indication of the wisdom of taking time in these matters IMHO.

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/moderna-pfizer-vaccines-blood-clots-inflammation-brain-heart/

MAYBE...but I'm going to follow the example of the prophet and general Authorities and their actions on this one...

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4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

MAYBE...but I'm going to follow the example of the prophet and general Authorities and their actions on this one...

If this is the case:

Step 1: One would need to consult and receive approval from their physician first. Pres. Nelson said:

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With approval from our physician...

I wonder how many people are actually talking to a physician first or just doing it?

Step 2:  With some guidance from your physician you can better decide if it is right for you specifically:

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D&C 9:8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must astudy it out in your bmind; then you must cask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your dbosom shall eburn within you; therefore, you shall ffeel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, ...

Step 3: In order to follow the Prophet and general Authorities... which 'exact' vaccine did they take? They all can't be equal. Since the Prophet is speaking to the World and the membership around the world, what vaccine are they giving their stamp of approval on? If I'm a member of the Church in China, what vaccine do I take?
 

Quote

What vaccines has China developed?

There are about a dozen Chinese vaccine candidates for covid-19, but five front runners have received emergency use approval in China as well as several other countries.

Step 4: When do I take it?
Now?
Do I wait it out a little bit longer?
How about 4 months from now instead?

Edited by NeedleinA

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1 hour ago, NeedleinA said:

If this is the case:

Step 1: One would need to consult and receive approval from their physician first. Pres. Nelson said:

I wonder how many people are actually talking to a physician first or just doing it?

Step 2:  With some guidance from your physician you can better decide if it is right for you specifically:

Step 3: In order to follow the Prophet and general Authorities... which 'exact' vaccine did they take? They all can't be equal. Since the Prophet is speaking to the World and the membership around the world, what vaccine are they giving their stamp of approval on? If I'm a member of the Church in China, what vaccine do I take?
 

Step 4: When do I take it?
Now?
Do I wait it out a little bit longer?
How about 4 months from now instead?

Indeed we should follow the example of the Prophet and the Apostles... And they would be the first to tell you to follow their example in How they reach a decision (ie Study and Prayer) not to blindly copy their choices without calling upon the Lord.  Having said that the Prophet having been vaccinated is a huge plus in the Pro Vaccination Column for any faithful saint studying it out.  It just does not void our need to do our own study and prayer about it.

 

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I am going to call this particular post - politics verses reality.

For most things in my life I have trusted logic and science - and this includes my understanding of religion.  One problem is that there can be, from time to time, confusion with what is logic and science and this often surfaces in politics.  I tested positive for COVIC-19, isolated and recovered - all without ever having symptoms.  According to my doctor and a county health official that was involved with me during the process, I am and was immune to COVID-19.  It is also my understanding that about 60% of the population is also immune.  Another 20% to 30% will develop immunity without need for any treatments.  This leaves 10% to 20% of the population at risk and if infected will require hospitalization.   It is my understanding that less than 1% of our population is at risk of death.

I studied all this carefully and consulted experts and decided not to receive the so-called vaccine.  I say so-called vaccine because in my research I discovered that the shot or shots being developed, technically are not vaccines.  If someone wants I will explain the technical definition of a vaccine.  But I ran into two problems.  One is a sister-in-law and the other is a brother.  Neither of which are medical professionals but both have worked for IHC and have strong medical connections.  Both were adamant that I have the shot, arguing that it is necessary that we, as a society, build a "wall" against the virus.  That I must assist in building this wall to end the pandemic.   My response was that I already am a secure brick in the wall because I am immune.  But they argued that immunity only lasts 6 months and that I could be re-infected.  My response to that was, "Show me the data".  To which I was told of cases of reinfection.  Because of my scientific background - I clearly pointed out that such cases are antidotal.

At this point I was accused of being stubborn - that having the shot would only increase my immunity and would decrease risks for myself and others.  That the worse case scenario for me would be that the shot would have zero effect.  This I determined was a good argument - plus my beloved wife was close to tears because she was convinced only bad would result if I did not take the shot.  And so I bowed to the politics and had the two shot set.

Now we are learning that those with natural immunity should not have the shot!!!!!  That the risk in taking the shot is worse for those with immunity.   But neither my brother nor my sister-in-law are willing to apologize let alone concede their positions - which I find prevalent in the medical profession - especially those that are not trained medical physicians. 

We are still in the middle of a global pandemic and it seems to me that as a society we have learned little - especially concerning the social politics of a pandemic that reach far beyond the dynamics of the milady.   In the Dark Ages the ignorance of the society prevailed and we mock such as silly and stupid - but I honestly do not see that with all our modern education that we have acquired any greater wisdom and thus I have concluded that this pandemic is far from being over and that the worse (including what will later be come know as unintended consequences) is yet to come.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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22 hours ago, Traveler said:

It is my understanding that less than 1% of our population is at risk of death.

Sounds reasonable.  Maybe 10% of our population is over 70, maybe 2-3% is over 80, and the risk of death is miniscule to tiny until around 70, when it starts going up logarithmically.  I heard somewhere something like 1 in 160 Americans have died from COVID, which is below 1%.

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But they argued that immunity only lasts 6 months and that I could be re-infected.  My response to that was, "Show me the data". 

I'm part of the growing data.  As a phase 3 trial participant, I fill out twice-monthly health reports, and get periodic blood tests every few months.  So, if the immunity falls over time, the data will come from people in the study like me.  Had Moderna in August, so 7 months and sounds like it's still going strong.  Pfizer seems to be going strong too

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Now we are learning that those with natural immunity should not have the shot!!!!!  That the risk in taking the shot is worse for those with immunity.   

Where are you hearing this?  The New York Times was saying the opposite in February.  Folks were not saying anything like that in March.   They're saying people recovered from COVID may only need one of the two doses in April.   What is your source for this claim?

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We are still in the middle of a global pandemic

Yeah maybe.  But I figure human civilization is just about done caring about it.  I figure it'll be in our collective rear-view mirrors by end of summer, except for virologists and people employed in the field.

 

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3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

 

Where are you hearing this?  The New York Times was saying the opposite in February.  Folks were not saying anything like that in March.   They're saying people recovered from COVID may only need one of the two doses in April.   What is your source for this claim?

 

It was reported - by the CDC - that those who received the J&J shot that suffered blood clots also had antibodies for the virous.  

 

The Traveler

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So, Traveler, when someone asks you to cite your source, typing words like "It was reported by the CDC" is not citing your source.  Citing your source would be cutting and pasting the link to where the CDC said it.

When I google "CDC those with natural immunity should not have the shot", I'm not seeing any results that match what you're saying they said.

So I'll ask again, please cite your source.

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We should study and pray about it, I'm not saying we should not.  I would also post the statement from the Church

Church Leaders Covid 19 Vaccine

Quote

As appropriate opportunities become available, the Church urges its members, employees and missionaries to be good global citizens and help quell the pandemic by safeguarding themselves and others through immunization. Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. In making that determination, we recommend that, where possible, they counsel with a competent medical professional about their personal circumstances and needs.

Talking to your doctor is not a bad thing, and advisable.  My doctor has a BIG sign in their office trying to get people to be vaccinated.

And once again, in case people missed it just above here...the statement again...this time bolded parts for those who didn't catch it the first time...

Of interest, this is a pretty strong statement from the First Presidency...

Quote

As appropriate opportunities become available, the Church urges its members, employees and missionaries to be good global citizens and help quell the pandemic by safeguarding themselves and others through immunization. Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. In making that determination, we recommend that, where possible, they counsel with a competent medical professional about their personal circumstances and needs.

Most of you probably do not remember Polio, or you have strange ideas of it.  In truth, the numbers killed each year were FAR less than how many have died from Covid--19.  We are looking at probably less than 10K, and probably less than 5K a year. 

For parents though, it was a constant fear.

They came out with various ways to vaccinate (including the famous sugar cubes). 

There was a HUGE push to get it out and given to people, there were also discouraging stories.  I don't know if they were true, but one of the most discouraging was that there had been a mistake with the vaccine and it was actually giving kids polio instead of vaccinating them.  This supposedly was quickly corrected, but it was a scary thought.

Despite that, they got people to take it.  It is NOT 100% effective in protecting against Polio, but it is enough that herd immunity was established and for the most part Polio has been wiped out from being a childhood disease everyone needs to fear.

This has applied to many of the childhood diseases that used to terrorize parents and families.  Children today do not have to fear dying as easily as the diseases that used to ravage our homes have largely been voided by vaccinations.

UNFORTUNATELY, many anti-vaxxers today are resurrecting these diseases.  Does this make the Lord happy to have these children die?  My personal opinion is that he has provided things to make our lives better through inspiration and blessings upon those researchers who created these vaccines.

That said.

IF one has concerns I would HEAVILY advise talking to their doctor.  If you think that you do not want to get vaccinated, instead of just consulting yourself and deciding not to, I HEAVILY advise you talk to your doctor instead.  You may be surprised at what they say...they may agree with you (especially if you have certain health variables), but for most the advice they give will probably be to take the vaccine.

I know my doctor is VERY pro-vaccine, I cannot vouch for others though.

Once again, from the article I posted the link to above...

Quote

“I’m glad our turn has come to have this vaccination,” President Oaks said Tuesday morning. “We’re very hopeful that the general vaccination of the population will help us get ahead of this awful pandemic. It’s hopeful, like the light at the end of the tunnel. There is relief and appreciation involved for those who have invented the vaccine and for those who have caused it to be generally available on a sensible priority system.”

They have given us examples and statements.  How much more do you want them to do or say about it?

Edited by JohnsonJones

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One last Item I'd like to post...a more hopeful note, but also pertaining to the pandemic.  Words from our Prophet last conference.

Covid-19 and temples

Quote

You may be wondering when you will be able to return to the temple. Answer: Your temple will be open when local government regulations allow it. When the incidence of COVID-19 in your area is within safe limits, your temple will be reopened. Do all you can to bring COVID numbers down in your area so that your temple opportunities can increase.

So who do WE follow in hearing the words of the Lord.  The Prophet and First Presidency (that's who I am looking to in advice and example during this pandemic...if they had said not to take the Vaccine you better believe I wouldn't have...but that's NOT what they did...in fact they have said the opposite). ....

....or those who would dissuade us to do what the Leadership of the Church have stated and for us to do the exact opposite of the First Presidencies messages and examples, as well as their implied statements. 

Edited by JohnsonJones
Clarity

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