President Nelson vaccinated


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On 4/19/2021 at 3:30 PM, JohnsonJones said:

I'm not trying to shame anyone, but I DO think that we should not be trying to tear down the words of the prophet, First Presidency, or the Apostles so blatantly.

Can someone please explain what the heck this is talking about?

Who's tearing down what words?

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16 hours ago, mirkwood said:

100-120 in attendance at Sacrament Meeting today. Looks like about 110 of us are going to the terrestrial kingdom. 

Curious... terrestrial kingdom because of no masks Or no vaccinations Or both?

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Can someone please explain what the heck this is talking about?

🤷‍♂️ I'm in the same boat as you.

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I'm not an anti-vaxxer, in fact I had a great conversation with my doctor as I was receiving the second of my shingles vaccines a few weeks ago. He asked if I wanted to sign up for the Johnson & Johnson vaccine (before the short ban)? I replied no thank you. He continued on trying over and over to convince me that it was safe. I kept politely saying no thank you. Finally, I told him that I have monetarily invested in specific vaccine development efforts in my life and in each case it took nearly a decade to even get to the point of possible approval and financial return. I said that I preferred to wait some additional time and had no fear of contracting COVID as I am not in any high risk group. He was polite, but you could see in his eyes that he thought I was a kook.

On a different vein, the new COVID vaccine requirement for foreign missionaries appears to have caused quite a stir in the mormonworld last week. The Church even had to turn off their Facebook comments. One important piece of information that is not widely known is that a traditional "inactivated virus" vaccine called COVAXIN that does not use mRNA spike proteins will likely be available in the US in the next few months. It will also be under EUA, but it may be a preferable alternative for those who wish to go on a foreign Church mission and don't want to receive the current mRNA vaccines. 

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/bharat-biotech-covaxin-production-sale-up-700-million-doses-7281776/

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Can someone please explain what the heck this is talking about?

Who's tearing down what words?

People who are telling others to do the exact opposite of what the prophet and apostles have told us to do are tearing down their words.

Instead of trying to explain WHY the prophet's teachings last conference should not apply to others, we SHOULD be discussing how best we can achieve them.  instead of trying to make excuses why we should ignore the prophet, we should INSTEAD be discussing how what we are doing to do ALL WE CAN do stop the spread of Covid-19 so that the temples can be reopened like they used to be.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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26 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

People who are telling others to do the exact opposite of what the prophet and apostles have told us to do are tearing down their words.

I respect your sentiment, but I also think that we should not underestimate the importance of medical self-direction. One of the blessings of the new Saints books is the candid recording of some of the disagreements within the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. The members of the Twelve have never been expected to stop thinking for themselves just because the President has an opinion on a matter. In fact, in many cases the Presidency chose not to act on matters for many months because of division among the Apostles, often waiting long periods for just one person to change their mind. 

I believe the Lord is just as patient with us when we don't agree on a recommendation from the President of the Church. It was not given as a commandment, and just as the Word of Wisdom did not carry that status for many years, this also does not and don't pretend that it does. Some may choose to act now, others may choose not to act at all, and some may be like my brother-in-law. He had full COVID three months ago, and chose to get the vaccine anyway. The first shot had only minor complications, but the second put him in the hospital with life-threatening complications. Justifiably, he does not intend to receive any further booster shots. Is he now a reprobate and apostate for his stance? Let's be careful to limit our judgement to our circle of responsibility and respect that others have that same agency.

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Hey guys, it's MormonGator. Wanted to stop by for a minute. 

It's highly ironic that I'm wearing a mask, getting vaccinated....I'm the one following Prophetic counsel and guys like @mirkwood and @Vort aren't. Never thought you would see this day, huh? 

Just playing.

Love y'all! Hope everything is great! 

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45 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Hey guys, it's MormonGator. Wanted to stop by for a minute. 

It's highly ironic that I'm wearing a mask, getting vaccinated....I'm the one following Prophetic counsel and guys like @mirkwood and @Vort aren't. Never thought you would see this day, huh? 

Just playing.

Love y'all! Hope everything is great! 

You're so missed!!!

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5 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

People who are telling others to do the exact opposite of what the prophet and apostles have told us to do are tearing down their words.

Instead of trying to explain WHY the prophet's teachings last conference should not apply to others, we SHOULD be discussing how best we can achieve them.  instead of trying to make excuses why we should ignore the prophet, we should INSTEAD be discussing how what we are doing to do ALL WE CAN do stop the spread of Covid-19 so that the temples can be reopened like they used to be.

Just so you know:  I'm approaching this from a completely different perspective. Consider the two examples which follow.

Every time I've heard something from the prophet or apostles that sound off in the slightest (and I do mean slightest) I listen, ponder, and pray about it.  Most of the time I've gotten a confirmation that it was true and wise counsel.  So, I did it even if I disagreed -- whether that disagreement was major or minor.  But a few times, I've never received that confirmation.  So, I would continue to ponder and pray.  But until I received such confirmation, I did according to my own best judgment at the time.

One time I remember that I was absolutely justified in believing that the counsel I heard was completely wrong and would be of NO EFFECT.  I really thought that was one of the most knee jerk, ignorant, and stupid things I'd heard in a long time.  But I prayed about it.  And you know what?  I received a confirmation.  It was NOT that it was "good and wise counsel."  It was that I would be blessed by obeying that counsel even if it only seemed like looking at Moses' serpent to be healed. After all, what does a looking at a serpent have to do with being healed?

So, I did what was counseled.  And I was right.  It had NOTHING to do with what it was supposed to be related to.  But at the same time, my confirmation was correct.  I was indeed blessed in unrelated ways because of my willingness to obey.

In the end, I don't do what he prophet says simply because he says it.  I do it or not because I sincerely ponder and pray.  And depending on the answer I will go and do. Anything else would be "ignoring the prophet" or "blindly following" a flawed human being.

On the matter of masks, I have not received any such confirmation.  So, until I do, I have to trust in my own mortal judgment.  This does not mean that his counsel was faulty.  I'll give you another example of what I mean.

My wife said that the Spirit told her that we ought to make a change in our lives.  I did not like the idea of this particular change.  It was a rather onerous change that I simply did not believe in.  But she was adamant that her impression was true.  And I really believe in my wife's spiritual promtings -- perhaps more than I should.  But this big of a change meant that I would need a confirmation of this same thing she had.

YEARS went on. She made changes as much as she could on her own.  I kinda sorta went along with it because I love my wife.  I kept praying about it.  Never received a confirmation.

Finally she came to me to specifically talk about this.  She wondered why I hadn't prayed about it.  She was surprised to hear that I had.  I told her that while I believe in her, such a big change would require a confirmation myself, or else I just can't make such a sacrifice by going all the way.  If we truly are to be equally yoked, then I need the confirmation just as she did.  And I just hadn't.

She started to wonder if she had been mistaken in her impression.  As I heard this, I really knelt down to pray and had a discussion with the Lord.

I prayed wondering why this was happening.  I really had a lot of confidence in my wife's spiritual sensitivity.  I read a lot about this topic and I see lots of things that make sense on both sides.  But putting it all together when there is so much that is unverifiable was not something I could do as a mortal.  So, if it is that important why wouldn't I receive a confirmation as my wife had?

That was when the answer came.  We were both looking at the issue as if it were all-in or all-out.  But it wasn't that kind of an issue.  Both sides of the issue were flawed.  So, with either choice, we'd have to figure it out as we went along.  Not only that.  But this particular issue was person specific.  And I pointed out some things that she already knew about it.

We finally agreed that it would be a compromise for both of us because it wasn't an all or nothing issue.

Edited by Carborendum
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When Noah was commanded to build an Ark, most of the rest of the world appears not to have been commanded.  He DID warn them and probably asked them to do certain things.  Instead they mocked him.

When the Israelites were hit by a plague of Snakes, Moses built a bronze snake that those who looked at it would live.  It was an easy thing, but many mocked him.

When Joseph F. Smith stopped Polygamy in the Church, it was not with the word, command, but otherwise for the Manifesto says...

Quote

And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

Does this mean we are under no demand to refrain from Polygamy?

It was given to great mockery of him and other Church leaders at the time and a schism occurred which has many of those who are called Members as different sects to this day.

At the time Wilford Woodruff gave it there were many who did not undertake this advice and continued as they were.  Even under Joseph F. Smith this continued for awhile.

In our modern time we have been asked to have food storage.  Many have not followed this advice, and indeed many have not suffered for NOT following the advice of the church...but does that mean we should disregard it?

More recently, the Family Proclamation says

Quote

We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

Once again, it does not say we are commanded.  Many do take the words of warning and requests seriously though.

Most recently, the Prophet, Russell M. Nelson stated...

Quote

You may be wondering when you will be able to return to the temple. Answer: Your temple will be open when local government regulations allow it. When the incidence of COVID-19 in your area is within safe limits, your temple will be reopened. Do all you can to bring COVID numbers down in your area so that your temple opportunities can increase.

In this, it actually is stronger than an urge, request, or even simply asking.  It is a statement.

The question is, do we follow the prophet.

Once again, the above item is NOT a question, it is NOT a simple maybe, it is a statement from the Prophet regarding when our temples will be reopened.  We have been blessed thus far and hopefully will continue to be blessed, but what happens when many Saints blatantly encourage others to NOT follow the Prophet?

I am following that advice which is why I am here asking people to actually LISTEN and FOLLOW what he has asked us.  I'm not saying you need to immediately go out and get vaccinated if personally you have gotten told not to, but the discussion should NOT BE how or why one should disregard the statement from our last conference, but HOW WE CAN FOLLOW this advice to do all we can to bring the COVID numbers down in our areas and reopen the temples.

Some may already have their temples open full time as they were before the pandemic, but most do not.  The non-concern with getting the temples back to full operating norms and doing what we can to get there is concerning.

If you feel that this is a matter of prayer for confirmation, I can understand that, but ONLY if you have not persecuted others who have had questions in the past and called them all sorts of names when they faced similar issues with the Church.  Those who have asked for others to be banned due to not following the religion of worshiping the Conservative party politics of the United States have NO PLACE to now contest the statements of the prophet and argue against them.  Ironically (not all, but a majority) of those who are now fighting against the words of the prophet are the same ones who have asked for posts to be deleted, others to be banned, and showed no sympathy to those who had difficulties in the past.  It is a double standard that has caused this forum over the past year or two to become more of a FAR RIGHT conservative talking forum rather than one that discusses the facets of the Church, and even now is promoting a far right veiwpoint over that of following the words of our prophet from the last conference.

This should be of concern, because this is NOT a complex issue.  We are discussing the words of the Prophet from the last conference.  Why should I need to be on the defensive to support his statements or talk about them on a forum which is supposedly here for members to discuss this type of thing simply because it is not a popular thing among the far right?  (and to be clear, it is a far right issue, as I do not think most members actually have problems with what the Prophet has asked us to try to do, even those who are conservative.  Most WANT the temples to reopen, and if we have to do everything in our power to reduce the Covid Numbers, than that's what I think most are trying to do these days).

Edited by JohnsonJones
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3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

If you feel that this is a matter of prayer for confirmation, I can understand that, but ONLY if you have not persecuted others who have had questions in the past and called them all sorts of names when they faced similar issues with the Church. 

And likewise, those who feel vindicated in their own opinions simply because the Prophet seemed to say something that agreed with them have no justification to get on a high horse and judge others who disagree.

To simply follow the Prophet without prayerful consideration is almost as bad as refusing to follow without prayerful consideration.  And I do know many who disobey simply because they disagree, not because they HAVE prayed and not yet received confirmation.

In the end, it is about sincerity of seeking the will of the Lord.  Too often, people jump on the "well it was only good advice, not a commandment of the Lord" train when they took no thought to even pray about it at all, let alone, sincerely.

But sincerity is not something we can really judge without knowing a person really well.

Edited by Carborendum
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@JohnsonJones have you considered that many of us who made our decisions to not receive mRNA spike protein vaccines under emergency use authorizations made those decisions long before President Nelson spoke on the subject?

And have you also considered that many of us regularly exercise and maintain good health habits, have worn our masks, have continued to take, or started to take vitamin D, have avoided large groups and visits with family, have used disinfectant religiously (no pun intended), etc.,

And don't these things count toward "Do[ing] all [we] can to bring COVID numbers down in your area so that your temple opportunities can increase."? While I respect your viewpoint, I do not understand your seemingly singular focus on interpreting President Nelson's recommendation for vaccination as a mandate that divides the faithful from the goats.

I respectfully ask some questions to ponder -

1. Do we need to get the same exact vaccine as President Nelson in order to be exactly obedient? Surely to be fully obedient we would need to take no other COVID vaccine other than the one he took right? Or is there room for interpretation on which vaccine to receive and when to receive it? 

2. Since President Nelson did not specify which COVID vaccine to receive, is it OK if those people who have already contracted COVID and enjoy a natural vaccinated state with active antibodies to not receive an additional vaccine? Or is there room for interpretation in this example as well?  

3. Are people that have significant co-morbidities such as obesity, but who get a COVID shot, more obedient that the healthy person who chooses not to get a COVID shot at this time? Or is there room for interpretation in this example too?  

I love President Nelson, and I am so grateful for all he has done in his lifetime to serve Jesus Christ and His Church. I'm grateful he has spoken on this issue, even if I have chosen to patiently wait. I respect his medical career and knowledge and I feel from a public relations standpoint that he has absolutely done the right thing. But I also have no doubt that if we sat down and discussed the matter together he would completely and lovingly respect my choice.

Will I be able to serve another foreign mission without the COVID shot? Not presently. But it's OK if I serve state-side. Is it possible that Church policy may change and I will no longer be able to serve in the Temple without having the COVID vaccine? Yes, it's possible. And if that happens I will serve in other places. And is it possible that this may all go away just like the original SARS virus did and we go back to normal and COVID vaccines are no longer required? Of course, so I'm not sure why we need to panic, criticize, or goad others into our viewpoints.

In 2000 my younger brother died from leukemia. I watched him suffer through long, intense, and grueling pain for many months prior to his graduation from this life. He made a personal choice to receive those treatments despite a very small chance of success. I would have chosen differently, and yet both decisions would have been right. Imagine that?

Edited by clwnuke
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Heh... I was studying and praying about the vaccine before our Prophet said anything.  I had reservations.  Our Prophet said what he said and showed his example.  And that answered my study part and I signed up to get vaccinated.  But my prayers did not end, having made my choice I took it to the Lord, saying if this be right, great then it will happen.  If it is not, then stop me.  The Lord answered that prayer by stopping me.  I do not present this as an answer for any one else on this issue.  Personal revelation is just that, personal.  It could be simply a timing issue that caused him to stop me, I do not know, am still working on figuring  that out.  But I get really tired of self righteous blowhards, who think to judge my faithfulness or willingness to obey the Lord and his Prophet because I am not doing what they think I should be doing.

 

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38 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

@JohnsonJones have you considered that many of us who made our decisions to not receive mRNA spike protein vaccines under emergency use authorizations made those decisions long before President Nelson spoke on the subject?

This confuses me.  Wouldn't the prophets counsel at least lead to reconsidering your decision?  Honestly, it seems to me that most members who are deciding not to get the vaccine did this.  They didn't like the CDC/WHO/etc guidelines and the government mandates.  They made up their minds to fight against those, and that choice can now be in conflict with following  church leaders.  I'm not saying this is every case or even any of them, but it's the impression I get from most.

39 minutes ago, clwnuke said:

And have you also considered that many of us regularly exercise and maintain good health habits, have worn our masks, have continued to take, or started to take vitamin D, have avoided large groups and visits with family, have used disinfectant religiously (no pun intended), etc.,

And don't these things count toward "Do[ing] all [we] can to bring COVID numbers down in your area so that your temple opportunities can increase."? While I respect your viewpoint, I do not understand your seemingly singular focus on interpreting President Nelson's recommendation for vaccination as a mandate that divides the faithful from the goats.

I can fully get behind this.  The vaccine isn't the only thing we can to do reduce the spread.  

 

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23 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

But I get really tired of self righteous blowhards, who think to judge my faithfulness or willingness to obey the Lord and his Prophet because I am not doing what they think I should be doing.

 

Many of us feel the same way when we wear a blue shirt to church instead of a white one. 

Edited by LDSGator
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13 minutes ago, dprh said:

This confuses me.  Wouldn't the prophets counsel at least lead to reconsidering your decision?  Honestly, it seems to me that most members who are deciding not to get the vaccine did this.  They didn't like the CDC/WHO/etc guidelines and the government mandates.  They made up their minds to fight against those, and that choice can now be in conflict with following  church leaders.  I'm not saying this is every case or even any of them, but it's the impression I get from most.

 

I suppose my whole point is that the choice not to vaccinate is not in "conflict" with Church leaders. The First Presidencies statement includes this:  Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. So people who exercise their judgment and choose not to receive a COVID vaccine are not in conflict with their direction IMHO.

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1 minute ago, clwnuke said:

I suppose my whole point is that the choice not to vaccinate is not in "conflict" with Church leaders. The First Presidencies statement includes this:  Individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. So people who exercise their judgment and choose not to receive a COVID vaccine are not in conflict with their direction IMHO.

I see, that wasn't the impression that I got from how you worded that the decision was made before.  Thank you for clarifying. 

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As a follow on - I feel the most empathy for those don't want a COVID vaccine whose workplaces are requiring vaccination. I anticipate that my own workplace will soon require one despite numerous assurances to the contrary over the past year.

Even in that scenario, I believe I will be able to have a reasonable accommodation made to allow me to wait until the Covaxin vaccine is available. I would feel more comfortable with that choice if I'm ultimately required to get one. If I have to wear masks while others don't until Covaxin is available, that's OK with me.

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