What does a “unified” nation look like in terms of politics?


Fether
 Share

Recommended Posts

For example...

Say next month, congress votes in a bill that makes abortion legal at all points, free, and provides $5000 in “emotional/physical recovery” for everyone who goes through it.

What would the appropriate “unified” nation response for those who disagree?

Would it be inappropriate under a “unified” nation for a republican owned senate and presidency to push through a bill that allows all Americans over the age of 21 to get a free handgun following an in-depth background check and firearm safety course?

Or is it the responsibility of a “unified” nation’s elected leaders to acknowledge that half the nation disagrees with a certain change and negotiate a middle ground despite the party’s ability to push through whatever they want?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The concept of a "unified" nation will only be accomplished when the denizens of the nation care more about truth and morality, and less about money and power. When the citizens do not, then you have compromise on items that should never be compromised.

The easiest examples since the origination of the American Constitution would be slavery and abortion. In the United States' founding documents we proclaim that all men/women are created equal, and yet the founders compromised on slavery. In the United States' founding documents we all have the right to the pursuit of happiness, unless you are a child within the womb. Thus, compromise results from individuals who want to push a narrative/agenda, rather than focusing on truth and morality.

There shouldn't be any budge against truth and morality, but as we have seen, people who care more about narrative/agenda, power, and money they will push and push until they get their way. We should peacefully present and fight for (uh oh, I used the word "fight" -- I might be starting/inciting a riot on ThirdHour) true God given rights.

Say next month, congress votes in a bill that makes abortion legal at all points, free, and provides $5000 in “emotional/physical recovery” for everyone who goes through it.

What would the appropriate “unified” nation response for those who disagree?

Work through the avenues that have already been given in our founding documents. We are to peacefully act and fight for (there is that word again -- fight) "rights" that are given to all. If we have done all we can, then we leave it in God's hands. We would address our senators with our concerns (i.e. the sanctity of life, and where is this $5000 coming from).

If we act like the rioters (BLM and Capitol) we are no longer a "unified" but a destructive front.

Would it be inappropriate under a “unified” nation for a republican owned senate and presidency to push through a bill that allows all Americans over the age of 21 to get a free handgun following an in-depth background check and firearm safety course?

Yes, it would be inappropriate under our form of government. It isn't the governments responsibility to provide guns for the people. It is only the responsibility of the government (our government) to protect our rights. Once again, how would the government pay for this? Government should ensure its denizens are able to protect themselves.

Or is it the responsibility of a “unified” nation’s elected leaders to acknowledge that half the nation disagrees with a certain change and negotiate a middle ground despite the party’s ability to push through whatever they want? 

No, it is the responsibility of the government to protect and honor the rights bestowed upon us by our creator, and through the Republic established. If we are negotiating a middle ground (upon rights) we are already showing to have a lack of unity.

If a government is pushing agenda and power they aren't a unified front, but they are establishing dictatorships. Easiest example of pushing a narrative/agenda is "gender terms." This already shows a lack of a unified front. Any stem away from truth and morality is evidence of a lack of unity -- resulting from the desire for power.

Middle ground should be sought after within different avenues. Easiest example is dealing with the poor and homeless in our society. These individuals also have the right to pursue happiness. How might the government best help? Does our government seek out thoughts and opinions from its citizens and citizens who own profitable businesses? Plans will be discussed, which some will agree with and some won't. In light of the government we are blessed with, options should be provided that do not destroy that government. In this case, compromise will probably need to happen.

Edited by Anddenex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/26/2021 at 7:06 PM, Anddenex said:

.....

Middle ground should be sought after within different avenues. Easiest example is dealing with the poor and homeless in our society. These individuals also have the right to pursue happiness. How might the government best help? Does our government seek out thoughts and opinions from its citizens and citizens who own profitable businesses? Plans will be discussed, which some will agree with and some won't. In light of the government we are blessed with, options should be provided that do not destroy that government. In this case, compromise will probably need to happen.

The problem with seeking, looking for or utilizing any "middle" ground - is that such real-estate is dwindling and disappearing in America.  The more we fight against ourselves the less there is to fight for.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

A unified nation is one that largely agrees on where the borders are drawn, and what the governing documents and institutions are.

 

More importantly:

What is the "proper role of government"?  And how is that role best fulfilled?

I believe borders are downstream of those questions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/24/2021 at 12:30 PM, Fether said:

For example...

Say next month, congress votes in a bill that makes abortion legal at all points, free, and provides $5000 in “emotional/physical recovery” for everyone who goes through it.

What would the appropriate “unified” nation response for those who disagree?

Would it be inappropriate under a “unified” nation for a republican owned senate and presidency to push through a bill that allows all Americans over the age of 21 to get a free handgun following an in-depth background check and firearm safety course?

Or is it the responsibility of a “unified” nation’s elected leaders to acknowledge that half the nation disagrees with a certain change and negotiate a middle ground despite the party’s ability to push through whatever they want?

I think generally speaking, the default should be for liberty and governmental non-intervention unless there is a clear national consensus for action.

There are exceptions, naturally, where nonintervention leads to the continuation of a morally repugnant status quo.  Slavery is one example on which I think we’d universally agree.  But the trouble is, there are other status quos that one party (but not the other) seems sufficiently “morally repugnant” to override the presumption of liberty.  The pre-2010 American health care system was an example of this for Dems; abortion is an example of this for those of us on the right.  And I think (speaking of what the calculus at that point is, not what it should be) the question becomes how much the majority thinks they can get away with before they a) lose power, or b) start getting shot at.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Carborendum said:
On 1/30/2021 at 4:44 PM, NeuroTypical said:

what the governing documents and institutions are.

 

What is the "proper role of government"?  And how is that role best fulfilled?

Yep.  Those things should be enshrined in the governing documents.

 

Another powerful thing I finally understood a little while ago: Nations must have three things - an economy, a military, and a political system.  If you are missing one of those, you're not a nation, you're part of someone else's nation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A united nation does not make any exceptions for any race --- Not in the laws, not in the politics, not in religious or public gatherings, not in education, not in entertainment and not in rhetoric.   As per Elder Quentin L. Cook's 2020 Conference talk titled "Hearts Knit in Righteousness and Unity".

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/31/2021 at 7:57 PM, NeuroTypical said:

 Nations must have three things - an economy, a military, and a political system.  If you are missing one of those, you're not a nation, you're part of someone else's nation.

I'm going to make a semantic argument against this.  In so doing, I'll acknowledge that we're probably talking about the same thing, but I'd use different words, and I'll add a few items.

We also need to address what defines a "country" and what encourages a "thriving country".  But they are so intertwined, I don't know where to draw the line.

1) We currently have a global economy.  We're still a separate nation.  So, I'd say "Monetary System" rather than "economy."  On the other hand Luxembourg uses Swiss money.  Then again a lot of the world will deal with greenbacks even though their country has their own (less stable) currency.  So, on this item, it is important for a "strong" nation.  But a nation would still exist without its own.

2) A military: Yes.  Some way to do two things: protect against invaders and enforce laws within its borders.  Thus an item missing on the list is: BORDERS.  They must be defined, protected, and enforced.

3) I have no idea what you mean by "political system."  So, I'll say that it needs some means of enforcing laws (see item #2 above).

4) We need a common culture.  Yes, the United States has often been called a "melting pot."  And there's nothing wrong with that.  But how many immigrants are "melting" into the pot?  How many natural born citizens are looking to cultures outside our borders on which to model their lives.  There will always be outliers.  But at some point (and we may be near it now) where we no longer have ANY common culture.

Under the founders, we had three guiding documents that formed that "common culture" in the United States:  The Bible, The Declaration, and The Constitution.  Today, all three are under attack.  And the detractors are winning.

  • Given that greenbacks are leveraged to the hilt, our monetary system will be failing within a generation or so.
  • We still have a military and police.  But they are being villified to the point that they will not be effective.
  • Our common culture is being torn down.  And those tearing it down have no idea what to replace it with.  They've just got this hodge-podge of woke ideals that don't really mix together well.  It isn't a "common" culture at all.  It is an agenda to separate into dozens of smaller cultures.

Yeah, so sorry if I don't predict the greatest outlook on this country's future.

On the bright side, as the country falls, the Kingdom of God on Earth (The Church) will be the beacon that people will look to.  People think that "preparing for the 2nd Coming" is some myth or ideal that leads us.  No, it is a very real mission of this Church. And we need to take it seriously.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Under the founders, we had three guiding documents that formed that "common culture" in the United States:  The Bible, The Declaration, and The Constitution.  Today, all three are under attack.  And the detractors are winning.

  • Given that greenbacks are leveraged to the hilt, our monetary system will be failing within a generation or so.
  • We still have a military and police.  But they are being villified to the point that they will not be effective.
  • Our common culture is being torn down.  And those tearing it down have no idea what to replace it with.  They've just got this hodge-podge of woke ideals that don't really mix together well.  It isn't a "common" culture at all.  It is an agenda to separate into dozens of smaller cultures.

Yeah, so sorry if I don't predict the greatest outlook on this country's future.

On the bright side, as the country falls, the Kingdom of God on Earth (The Church) will be the beacon that people will look to.  People think that "preparing for the 2nd Coming" is some myth or ideal that leads us.  No, it is a very real mission of this Church. And we need to take it seriously.

I am not actually disagreeing with you, but in the interest of semantics...

Where does it say that the founders said the Bible was to be a guiding document? 

The Declaration of Independence was a document we could say was guiding at first, but after the Constitutional Convention and the Constitution was written, it was and is seen as the Supreme law of the land. 

No other document or item supposedly was seen as guiding us other than the Constitution in regards to law and regulation.  In that light, many would say Plato's and Aristotle's writings were of greater influence as well as that of the mid 2nd Millenia AD philosophers in the understandings of the Constitution and the later amendments known as the Bill of Rights.

Many would say the "Common" Culture we think we had in the past is actually originated in a false sense of history based upon TV shows of the 1950s and 60s, whereas the true culture of the US is far more complex and complicated.

In that idea, what is the common culture that you are referring to?

That of the Black Americans caught in Share Cropping?

That of the Asian-Americans in their Korea/China/Japan Towns?

That of the Amish and Mennonite villages that dot through the US?

That of the undocumented Irish workers and later the undocumented Central and South American workers that are under the radar of the government regulators in the US throughout the late 19th to early 21st centuries?

The Gangs of the Inner Cities?

That of the White, Christian upper Middle Class and Upper Classes that composed less than 20% of Americans in the 20th Century?  (this is what many refer to as the common culture of the US, though it actually was NOT the culture of the majority of Americans throughout History).

What is this common culture you refer to?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Carborendum, there's no react emoji that combines a like with a sad face, so I went with like.  We're pretty much in agreement.  I figure there are good odds the American Empire is in it's waning years.  I'm not predicting, but it wouldn't surprise me if 150 years from now, they're writing books about how the United States, as a notion/empire/hegemony, fell.

I take comfort that even though every single empire has fallen, you can still find Romans, Spaniards, Greeks, Brits, and Turks - all happily off raising their families and having their nations and cultures.  Just not in charge any more. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I can't find that document in the Joseph Smith Papers

Quote

(Joseph Smith Papers, LDS Church Historical Archives, Box 1, March 10, 1844.)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

L. TomPerry, “God’s Hand in the Founding of America,” New Era, Jul 1976, 45

            Adapted from an address delivered on February 24, 1976, at BYU

“[There are]... prophecies concerning our great responsibilities to preserve that which we have been blessed with by God.

“.... I will point out to you special witnesses who have indicated our responsibilities to this land.

“First from BrighamYoung, second president of the Church: “Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate [intact/kept sacred] by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, ‘The time will come when the destiny of this nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’ It will be so.” (Journal of Discourses, 7:15.)

“... JohnTaylor, third president of the Church: “When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States, the elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth, and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations.” (The Gospel Kingdom, Deseret Book Co., 1943, p. 219.) ...

“A final witness is from GeorgeQ.Cannon, former member of the First Presidency, who said that “the day will come when the Constitution and free government under it will be sustained and preserved by this people.” (JD, 23:104.)

“Now, I declare to you that if we are not in the beginning stages of the fulfillment of this prophecy, we are at least in the stages where we are preparing for its fulfillment.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

I thought it was universally agreed that the white horse prophecy was fulfilled with Harry Reid.

We aren't talking about the White Horse Prophecy.  

 

The ridiculous story about the "red horse," and "the black horse," and "the white horse," and a lot of trash that has been circulated about and printed and sent around as a great revelation given by the Prophet Joseph Smith, is a matter that was gotten up, I understand, some ten years after the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, by two of our brethren who put together some broken sentences from the Prophet that they may have-heard him utter from time to time, and formulated this so called revelation out of it, and it was never spoken by the prophet in the manner in which they have put it forth. It is simply false: that is all there is to it. (Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, October 1918, p.58.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/1/2021 at 12:57 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Yep.  Those things should be enshrined in the governing documents.

 

Another powerful thing I finally understood a little while ago: Nations must have three things - an economy, a military, and a political system.  If you are missing one of those, you're not a nation, you're part of someone else's nation.

I would aid a legal system as a necessary component of a nation - a legal system fits well with the idea of the rule of law, and is quite a seperate thing from the economy, military and political system. 

The question of what does a unified nation look like in terms of politics makes me wonder whether the European Union is becoming more or less of a nation, and whether England has become more or less of a nation by leaving the EU. THe EU's political. legal and economic systems have been more integrated in recent decades but there still seems to be strong resistance to the idea of an EU standing military.

Edited by askandanswer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I would aid a legal system as a necessary component of a nation - a legal system fits well with the idea of the rule of law, and is quite a seperate thing from the economy, military and political system. 

Huh.   In my mind, can't really separate the laws someone is governed under, and the lawmakers/courts/enforcers.  It's a govern-ment.

Quote

The question of what does a unified nation look like in terms of politics makes me wonder whether the European Union is becoming more or less of a nation, and whether England has become more or less of a nation by leaving the EU.

I figure England is more a nation by leaving.   I remember back at the start of the EU's creation - one of the good things some folks were shooting for, was a unified bunch of states that would, once combined and functioning, be bigger/better/stronger/richer than the United States across the pond.  I heard several folks hopefully opining for a swift arrival of the EU gaining the title of world power.  

I haven't heard anyone say anything remotely similar in over a decade.  Some folks even take issue with me for expressing my memory in the first place.

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/5/2021 at 5:14 PM, mirkwood said:

We aren't talking about the White Horse Prophecy.  

The ridiculous story about the "red horse," and "the black horse," and "the white horse," and a lot of trash that has been circulated about and printed and sent around as a great revelation given by the Prophet Joseph Smith, is a matter that was gotten up, I understand, some ten years after the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, by two of our brethren who put together some broken sentences from the Prophet that they may have-heard him utter from time to time, and formulated this so called revelation out of it, and it was never spoken by the prophet in the manner in which they have put it forth. It is simply false: that is all there is to it. (Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, October 1918, p.58.)

Yes and no.

Originally, there was the notion of the Constitution hanging by a thread and that somehow the "Elders of Israel" would be the instruments of preserving it.  There was no formal name for this prophecy.

Later, this notion of the four colored horses came to light.  It was a page or two long in the versions I read.  This was formally dubbed "The White Horse Prophecy".  Since that document contained the phrase "and the Constitution shall hang by a thread" the two prophecies were conflated.  Many believed that this was the prophecy that others alluded to when they spoke of the Constitution and the Elders saving it.  But this was not the case.

While the White Horse Prophecy was repudiated, the original concept of the hanging by a thread etc was in the memories of many GAs who remembered Joseph speaking these words.

The problem was that no one could remember any minutes being taken during that meeting.  They all had the same overall concept of what Joseph had said.  But each had a slightly different recollection of the exact wording.  This was my understanding.

That is why I was wondering about NTs post.  I couldn't find the original document that was referenced in his link. I'd like to see it and find out who wrote it.

Edited by Carborendum
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Words of Joseph Smith, p. 416,  July 19, 1840.

            “Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear away the constitution away from the very verge of destruction. Then shall the Lord say go tell all my servants who are the strength of mine house, my young men and middle aged, come to the Land of my vineyard and fight the battle of the Lord.  Then the Kings & Queens shall come, then the rulers of the Earth shall come, then shall all saints come yea the Foreign saints shall come to fight for the Land of my vineyard for in this thing shall be their safety and they will have no power to choose but will come as a man fleeth from a sudden destruction. . . . I know these things by the visions of the Almighty.”

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, mirkwood said:

Words of Joseph Smith, p. 416,  July 19, 1840.

            “Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear away the constitution away from the very verge of destruction. Then shall the Lord say go tell all my servants who are the strength of mine house, my young men and middle aged, come to the Land of my vineyard and fight the battle of the Lord.  Then the Kings & Queens shall come, then the rulers of the Earth shall come, then shall all saints come yea the Foreign saints shall come to fight for the Land of my vineyard for in this thing shall be their safety and they will have no power to choose but will come as a man fleeth from a sudden destruction. . . . I know these things by the visions of the Almighty.”

Yes.  But who wrote down this quote?  From what occasion/context were these words spoken?

I can't find this document in the JSP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/8/2021 at 9:58 AM, mirkwood said:

Words of Joseph Smith, p. 416,  July 19, 1840.

 

            “Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear away the constitution away from the very verge of destruction. Then shall the Lord say go tell all my servants who are the strength of mine house, my young men and middle aged, come to the Land of my vineyard and fight the battle of the Lord.  Then the Kings & Queens shall come, then the rulers of the Earth shall come, then shall all saints come yea the Foreign saints shall come to fight for the Land of my vineyard for in this thing shall be their safety and they will have no power to choose but will come as a man fleeth from a sudden destruction. . . . I know these things by the visions of the Almighty.”

Being of 5th generation and descendent from the pioneers this doctrine was quite common in my youth.  But what was also interesting is that my grandparents did not have the faith in the government in contrast to today that it seems that many hold the government in high regard.  I was raised with the understanding that the governments of the world (including the USA) would collapse and that the principles of freedom and liberty would be preserved only within the society of the Saints.  That a time could come that the Saints would return to Missouri (walk back in a similar manner to our ancestor's migration to Utah and that the Saints would be established as an independent nation that would be, in essence a theocracy quite similar to the Nephite nation - especially following the visit of Jesus to their society. 

It is interesting to me how the thinking has changed among the Saints.  I have often pondered what will happen in the last few years before Jesus returns - especially with the society of the Saints.  It use to be that the entire Sabbath was involved in "Church" activity - as well as some days of the week for primary and Relief Society.  Even sports in Utah were centered around the church and church wide competitions.  Similar with the arts with annual rode shows (that started preparations for the next year when the current year competitions concluded) and monthly Gold and Green Balls.  The social event for high school were the multi stake dances and likewise for college and young professionals there were the MMen and Gleaner dances.  Anyone else remember the Thursday night dances in SLC at the Blue Terrace?  In my youth it seemed that whatever activity was legal and wholesome that the Church sponsored it.  In Provo, where I grew up, the 4th of July was celebrated with church activities - which began with a parade followed throughout the day with various "talent exhibitions" and then concluded with a grand show called "The Panorama" (complete with fireworks) that was held in the old BYU football stadium - all of which was financed (both money and labor) through the wards and stakes of Provo through donations directly to the local Church.

In contrast to today - it seems half of the youth do not attend Church activities because they are involved in secular organizations with the schools or community.  I understand that as the Church has grown and become a world wide church with more members outside the USA that our culture and thinking would somewhat change and evolve.  But to be honest - I was glad to have experienced the time and place of my formative years.  And yet - I cannot wait to see what will come next.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was not in Utah long ago, but outside of Utah we also had Roadshows and Gold and Green Balls.  The oddity of the Saints were that we would also celebrate Pioneer Day (no one else did, of course), normally with a Ward picnic.

They'd normally have a ward football game prior to food being served, and then the bruises and wounds of the game would be tended and laughed at.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share