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Traveler

Executive Order 13817 and logistics

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I am thinking that there should be more than one thread on this particular subject.  Let us start with this thread.  First off – this thread is not being started for political reasons.  However, it is unlikely that there can be any honest and open discussion of the subject matter without getting into some politics.  Anyway – here goes.

Perhaps to best understand logistics we need to understand the “Art of War” even though logistics has much more to understand outside of war.  Mostly we think of war in terms of strategists or brilliant maneuvers.  And yet no war has ever been won without logistics.  By definition logistics is the coordination of and control of resources.

Most likely the reader of this post has never heard about Executive Order 13817.  You many Google it if you like to learn what you like.  For the most part this has stayed out of the public eye.  The foundation of the order for the most part had its roots in the military though this order reaches far beyond the military.  In fact – in order for there to be anything like “The Green New Deal” this Executive Order must (please note the word MUST) be firmly in place for success.  If we are to continue to develop and have electronic tech or access to life saving medication – we need this Executive Order.

This Executive Order was signed by the President of the United States in 2017.  It identifies 35 critical elements needed to function as a modern society – and then this Order requires that All Government Agencies work together to insure access to these elements moving forward – ether by developing the resources of the USA or securing long lasting treaties with dependable and friendly nations.  Here is a list of the 35 elements:

Quote

. Aluminum (bauxite), used in almost all sectors of the economy

. Antimony, used in batteries and flame retardants

. Arsenic, used in lumber preservatives, pesticides, and semi-conductors

. Barite, used in cement and petroleum industries

. Beryllium, used as an alloying agent in aerospace and defense industries

. Bismuth, used in medical and atomic research

. Cesium, used in research and development

. Chromium, used primarily in stainless steel and other alloys

. Cobalt, used in rechargeable batteries and superalloys

. Fluorspar, used in the manufacture of aluminum, gasoline, and uranium fuel

. Gallium, used for integrated circuits and optical devices like LEDs

. Germanium, used for fiber optics and night vision applications

. Graphite (natural), used for lubricants, batteries, and fuel cells

. Hafnium, used for nuclear control rods, alloys, and high-temperature ceramics

. Helium, used for MRIs, lifting agent, and research

. Indium, mostly used in LCD screens

. Lithium, used primarily for batteries

. Magnesium, used in furnace linings for manufacturing steel and ceramics

. Manganese, used in steelmaking

. Niobium, used mostly in steel alloys

. Platinum group metals, used for catalytic agents

. Potash, primarily used as a fertilizer

. Rare earth elements group, primarily used in batteries and electronics

. Rhenium, used for lead-free gasoline and superalloys

. Rubidium, used for research and development in electronics

. Scandium, used for alloys and fuel cells

. Strontium, used for pyrotechnics and ceramic magnets

. Tantalum, used in electronic components, mostly capacitors

. Tellurium, used in steelmaking and solar cells

. Tin, used as protective coatings and alloys for steel

. Titanium, overwhelmingly used as a white pigment or metal alloys

. Tungsten, primarily used to make wear-resistant metals

. Uranium, mostly used for nuclear fuel

. Vanadium, primarily used for titanium alloys

. Zirconium, used in the high-temperature ceramics industries

 

A couple of notes: 

Because of this Executive Order mining was given access to mine Potash in a dry lake bed in the West Desert of Utah that will double USA access to Potash (note the thread under the General Discussion Group called Blue Ponds in Utah Desert started by @Carborendum).  This new mine will make Utah the largest producer of Potash in the world).

Note the Lithium is on this list – Currently China supplies 85% of the Lithium we use.  Two Lithium mines have been opened up in Nevada that will supply our needed Lithium.   In fact China has been moving to control the world’s supply chain for almost all of these elements – I believe their thinking is that if they control the supply for these elements they will control the world.  If we are to have solar or wind power we must have Lithium.

What I do not know is if the Executive Orders currently being signed to deliberately undo the unjust Orders (not my words but the words of our current president) of Trump will close down BLM (public lands) to development of any or all of these elements.   

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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3 hours ago, Traveler said:

Note the Lithium is on this list – Currently China supplies 85% of the Lithium we use.  Two Lithium mines have been opened up in Nevada that will supply our needed Lithium.   In fact China has been moving to control the world’s supply chain for almost all of these elements – I believe their thinking is that if they control the supply for these elements they will control the world.  If we are to have solar or wind power we must have Lithium.

If only lithium were freely available everywhere in the earth's crust.

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

If only lithium were freely available everywhere in the earth's crust.

Is anything freely available anywhere???   Other than air?

 

The Traveler

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I am not sure that the importance of this Executive Order is very well understood or appreciated.  So here is a little more information about what the Executive Order was put in place to do:

Quote
  • a strategy to reduce the nation’s reliance on critical minerals
  • the status of recycling technologies
  • alternatives to critical minerals
  • options for accessing critical minerals through trade with allies and partners
  • a plan for improvements to mapping the United States and its mineral resources
  • recommendations to streamline lease permitting and review processes,
  • ways to increase discovery, production, and domestic refining of critical minerals

The point I am attempting to highlight in showing light on this executive order is that if indeed anyone believes the climate change political model and truly believe we must do whatever we can to change our reliance on fossil fuels and switch to "renewable" resources they would realize that in the last 50 years no administration or president has done more to make such a cause viable that did the previous administration.   No nation can rely on renewable resources without enough control of these  critical elements to meet the needs and demands of their society.

 

The Traveler

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A update - just in case anyone is interested?   Since this sort of involves politics and we are not to engage in politics in this forum, I will be as brief as possible.  It seems that my personal worse political concerns have been realized.   Though it is claimed (via new executive order from the current administration) that our nation establish domestic supply chain for  critical elements the current administration is putting a stop to any "development" on pristine (undeveloped) government lands - including the mining of critical elements.  It appears that this included projects allowed during the previous administration.  It is estimated that this will prohibit 90+% of access to critical elements from our domestic supply.

 

The Traveler

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Hi @Traveler,

It might help if you had a source to cite that shares your concerns.   Folks yellin' about stuff on the internet doesn't go very far by itself (present company included).

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4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hi @Traveler,

It might help if you had a source to cite that shares your concerns.   Folks yellin' about stuff on the internet doesn't go very far by itself (present company included).

You will have to realize that outlets are biased and the internet are the only links that can be provided.  So here is a link:

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/biden-hypocrisy-critical-minerals-industry-security-reps-dan-newhouse-andy-biggs

 

The Traveler

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9 minutes ago, Traveler said:

You will have to realize that outlets are biased and the internet are the only links that can be provided.  So here is a link:

https://www.foxnews.com

So, that's the thing.  If this thing is as troubling and scary as you believe it to be, it's not like politicians and news media would be the only people who care.  There are plenty of nonpolitical entities out there, you'd think if it was such a bad thing, someone besides fox would be saying something.

Has the Colorado School of Mines said anything about it?  The National Mining Association?  AE&M? How about the Prospectors & Developers Association?  The Institute of Materials, Minerals, and Mining? Anything from any of the gazilion mining industry journals or trade magazines?  My 60-second googling turns up quite a bit from 2017 when the thing was signed, 2019 when it started to get implemented, and nothing recent.

 

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17 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, that's the thing.  If this thing is as troubling and scary as you believe it to be, it's not like politicians and news media would be the only people who care.  There are plenty of nonpolitical entities out there, you'd think if it was such a bad thing, someone besides fox would be saying something.

Has the Colorado School of Mines said anything about it?  The National Mining Association?  AE&M? How about the Prospectors & Developers Association?  The Institute of Materials, Minerals, and Mining? Anything from any of the gazilion mining industry journals or trade magazines?  My 60-second googling turns up quite a bit from 2017 when the thing was signed, 2019 when it started to get implemented, and nothing recent.

 

As an engineer in the field of automation and robotics I am aware that most of the published material concerning developments comes from colleges and their research.  The problem is that information from such sources lacks practical implementation.  A good example is the development of nanotube  technologies.  The problem with nanotube tech is that no one has figured out how to mass produce nanotubes to make the nanotube tech industrially viable.   The second source of published material comes from  industry.  I have published articles in "Modern Materials Handling" and there is between 2 and 10 years in development before stuff is published because no one wants to make a fool of themselves like Ponds and Fleishman did with "cold fusion".   In the mining industry there are leading indication in the prices of products.  Since the changes in executive orders took place there has been a 30% increase in the price of petroleum (gas at the pump).  You may try to find something published explaining why such a rapid increase took place in such a political climate as we are currently experiencing.

 

The Traveler  

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Traveler, I'm afraid I simply don't find what you're saying persuasive.   I get your point about research publications and impractical colleges - but dang, not a single press release from anyone?  Anywhere?  I just can't make that jump based on one random guy on the internet, and a fox news article on why Biden is bad.  I've had good luck with my rule of "if only politically motivated people are yelling about it, it's probably not worth my time."  If the US was gearing up to do all this stuff, and is now having to stop because of executive order, you could find people screaming.  Not just people screaming at Biden. 

40 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Since the changes in executive orders took place there has been a 30% increase in the price of petroleum (gas at the pump).  You may try to find something published explaining why such a rapid increase took place in such a political climate as we are currently experiencing.

This chart seems to say such swings in gas prices are nothing out of the ordinary:

image.png.14192d6c5f26b6b2c9d1e1bc5decf1e4.png

Two google searches: "Why is gas going up" - Popular recent explanations include Crude oil going up, refineries shut down because of winter storms, and COVID impacts (both from shut down refineries due to less demand last year, and a surge in travel as hopeful people emerge blinking from their quarantines and hop in the cars).

"Why is gas going up 13817" - Absolutely zero recent results.  Squat.  Zero.  Nada.  Zilch.  

 

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Since the changes in executive orders took place there has been a 30% increase in the price of petroleum (gas at the pump).  You may try to find something published explaining why such a rapid increase took place in such a political climate as we are currently experiencing.

Two things have had a large impact on gas prices.

1. Shutdowns are going away.
2. The Keystone Pipeline project was nixed.

Also, expect to see gas prices going up as the weather heats up.  This year, it may be earlier than normal (if anyone actually pays attention to the weather).  But every year we use a different formulation for gasoline in warmer weather.

Edited by Carborendum

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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Two things have had a large impact on gas prices.

1. Shutdowns are going away.
2. The Keystone Pipeline project was nixed.

Also, expect to see gas prices going up as the weather heats up.  This year, it may be earlier than normal.  But every year we use a different formulation for gasoline in warmer weather.

What you say is accurate and important - but gas prices were much more stable prior to the COVID shutdowns - and were declining from prices of previous years.  If one accounts for inflation something changed for the economic benefit of all and obviously is changing again but not for economic benefit.

 

The Traveler

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3 hours ago, Traveler said:

but gas prices were much more stable prior to the COVID shutdowns

Gas prices are never stable.

Quote

 - and were declining from prices of previous years. 

Yes, because we were in a period of economic growth that we haven't seen since Reagan.  And now ALL of the current policies are doing their best to shut down the economy again.

The primary issue here is that Lithium is everywhere.  If China outpaces us, the only reason is political intervention forcing it.  So, is that what you're concerned about?

Well, I suppose they could somehow make "mining lithium" an environmental issue.  Then the US is automatically banned from producing it, along with all other wester countries.  But China is always exempt from such rules.  So, they will take over the entire market.

Edited by Carborendum

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On 3/15/2021 at 2:01 PM, Carborendum said:

Gas prices are never stable.

Yes, because we were in a period of economic growth that we haven't seen since Reagan.  And now ALL of the current policies are doing their best to shut down the economy again.

The primary issue here is that Lithium is everywhere.  If China outpaces us, the only reason is political intervention forcing it.  So, is that what you're concerned about?

Well, I suppose they could somehow make "mining lithium" an environmental issue.  Then the US is automatically banned from producing it, along with all other wester countries.  But China is always exempt from such rules.  So, they will take over the entire market.

If you go back to my initial post on this thread there are 35 essential elements that our country currently needs to sustain not just our economy but to be able to sustain our military capabilities in case of a major war.  Lithium is listed as one of these essential elements.  Prior to the executive order our supply chain for these elements (including lithium) are all are being provided through countries that are not necessary friendly and could endanger, not just our economy, but the lives of those that serve in the military.  

Two things are needed to protect our supply chain.  First is that we must cultivate sources either domestically or with friendly countries with whom we have long standing mutually beneficial treaties based on trust.  Second we must guarantee the market for our supply chain.  This means that we, as a country, in essence, must subsidize domestic and friendly foreign supplies to guarantee our supply chain access to markets that will make them financial successful.  In short not only must we develop mining sources but we must finance and provide the markets for those sources.  This is kind of foreign to most conservatives thinkers that adhere exclusively to supply - demand economics and trade as well as to liberals with policies that make no sense to our country and to be honest - I believe or it appears to me to be based entirely on the benefit of specific politicians and their partners in crime.

So in essence this executive order from the previous administration can easily be overturned either by making domestic mining difficult or through foreign policies that put associated domestic industries for these products at a disadvantage.  It appears that my concerns are being realized.  If someone has proof otherwise - I would be most interested.

As a side note - I have a personal friend (and former bishop) that is an executive in the petroleum  industry (Sinclair) and a brother, that is currently retired, that was a executive with Dominion (previously Questar natural gas) that have informed me that mining - specifically fracking - has come under political pressure as of late and that if the Paris Accords are rejoined will force both industries to become dependent on foreign sources.  It is interesting to note that the solar and wind industry are directly dependent on petrol chemicals.  This means that we will become dependent on foreign sources for our wind and solar power as well.  

I do not understand the current political climate nor those that proudly (perhaps ignorantly?) support it.

 

The Traveler

 

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