Updates on renovations of the Salt Lake and Manti Temples


JohnsonJones
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Salt Lake Manti Temples Update

It appears that there will be more changes to these temples.  There no longer will be a Live Presentation Endowment, The Murals are removed, more single rooms added for additional ordinances, another Baptistry, and more sealing rooms.

Before we hear the bulk of complaints, I have heard it already about history and the destruction of historic items.  As a Historian, I am normally greatly saddened when historic things are erased.  I understand why some may be saddened by this.

HOWEVER...

1.  This is not without precedent.  There have been other temples in Utah that have been renovated and the murals changed or removed.

2.  Ask oneself what the purpose of the temple is.  First and Foremost it is about the ordinances performed there-in.  Which pushes the work forward more, enabling the ability to perform more ordinances or the preservation of historic value here.

3.  In strengthening the temple against earthquakes, the walls of which the murals were on needed to be changed.  There did not appear to be a way to preserve the murals and do the best job of making the temple more earthquake resistant at the same time.

4.  I hear that this is divinely inspired.  If the Prophet feels that this is the correct thing to do to press forward in the work of the Lord, who are we to question that?

 

Just pre-empting some conversational pointers I think some may raise before they are raised here, or expressing my thoughts prior to others expressing theirs so I am not responding, rather just putting my opinion up front and center to begin with.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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A few follow-ups observations, re Salt Lake specifically:

1). The Church presumably had a plan about what accessibility/layout changes it intended to make, at the time the temple was closed.  At the time, it announced that the murals would be preserved.  I believe that this statement was sincere.  

2).  These murals were painted directly on late-19th/early-20th century plaster, which is notoriously difficult to preserve.

3).  It sounds to me like the murals—at least in Salt Lake—turned out to be far more fragile than anyone imagined; and heaven only knows how last year’s earthquake may have exacerbated matters.  Once it becomes apparent that the murals, as a practical matter, cannot be saved and that the result of any renovation/“restoration” at this point would to some degree be historically inauthentic, then you have to ask hard questions about whether it’s worth the extra cost and limited temple capacity to provide the relatively tiny amount of Church members who regularly use this temple with a pseudo-historical experience on top of the spiritual experience that is the temple’s raison d’etre.

4). The murals in the temple had been retouched many, many times.  It is difficult to say what is or isn’t “authentic” at this point.  Moreover, several are not original to the temple as-built, having been done in 1915 or later.

5). As for those that were original—neither the circumstances under which they were produced, nor the craftsmanship thereof, sanctify the temple.  To the contrary, it was their presence in the temple that sanctified them.  They are not “pioneer” work; the painters were second-generation Church members who were sent to Europe to study art at Church expense, and then got in a rather unseemly spitting match with President Woodruff over the amount he was willing to pay them for the murals versus the amount the artists thought they were worth.  Additionally, they also—to my mind at least—are not particularly “high art”.  The murals being done at present for new temples, far exceed them in artistry and aesthetic appeal.  The only thing I’ll miss about the murals, is that I dare say the all-seeing eye will not be present in whatever replaces them.

6). I love live sessions.  Have learned a ton through them.  That said:  most of the loss was suffered when we chose to do video rather than live presentations for the hundred-plus temples in the Church.  Live sessions are a horrendously inefficient, labor-intensive way to administer the Endowment; and it probably isn’t fair for “old-guard” Mormons in Utah (of which I count myself one) to demand the consumption of Church resources on something that the vast majority of the Church will never be able to enjoy.  It is telling to me that some of the same people decrying the loss of live sessions and pooh-poohing the observation that these new changes will *double* the Salt Lake Temple’s working capacity, are the same folks who are forever complaining about why we don’t spend more money on “the poor” and wondering whether the Church really needs another temple in Utah.  

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51 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Eve's leg: Am I a joke to you?

I've tried to figure out Eve's leg in the past. Best I can figure out is the following, which makes sense... BUT is nonetheless just awkward in the piece of art.
Untitled-1.jpg.b7ae9676936d3103f4e3d2616f737b1d.jpg

Edited by NeedleinA
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I am both sad and excited about the changes.  I have had a number of my most spiritual manifestations while at the Salt Lake temple which have been linked to physical presentations and structures at the temple that though not specifically referenced are likely to be changed.  My general feeling is that, to me, the Salt Lake Temple is a spiritual reminder that our past is really a link to our future and that things; I thought would never change are changing - perhaps I need to make changes to myself to prepare for my personal spiritual seismic protection and other things that are coming.  

 

The Traveler

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  • 1 year later...
11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Video on how the earthquake-proofing will work.  Dang amazing.  If (when) there's a big earthquake, the temple will basically sit still while the earth moves around it.

 

Interesting.  The base isolators installed at the state Capitol building from 2004-2007 allow for less than half the amount of horizontal movement as the temple’s will (two feet versus five feet).

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Video on how the earthquake-proofing will work.  Dang amazing.  If (when) there's a big earthquake, the temple will basically sit still while the earth moves around it.

Pretty cool.  And, yes. It really is amazing.

When compared to the renovation projects I've done in industrial plants, this is a monumental task.  I've never seen anything personally on this scale.  The weight of the building alone, not to mention the size, should have  been cost prohibitive.  But apparently, they're doing it.  I would have gone with an inertial dampening mechanism rather than a base isolation system precisely because of that reason. The downside would be that they'd have to give up some real estate inside the building.

But if it is financially feasible, then I guess it is a good way to do it.  I am amazed that any contractor would take on the project -- all things considered.

I'm surprised that the "concrete-filled pipes" will actually be able to hold all that weight.  But I don't really have a proper gage of the scale depicted in the video.

If I can make a small jab at the narrator:  It was funny how he pronounced the word "secant."  But apparently, a lot of narrators think that's how to pronounce it.

Edited by Carborendum
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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Pretty cool.  And, yes. It really is amazing.

When compared to the renovation projects I've done in industrial plants, this is a monumental task.  I've never seen anything personally on this scale.  The weight of the building alone, not to mention the size, should have  been cost prohibitive.  But apparently, they're doing it.  I would have gone with an inertial dampening mechanism rather than a base isolation system precisely because of that reason. The downside would be that they'd have to give up some real estate inside the building.

But if it is financially feasible, then I guess it is a good way to do it.  I am amazed that any contractor would take on the project -- all things considered.

I'm surprised that the "concrete-filled pipes" will actually be able to hold all that weight.  But I don't really have a proper gage of the scale depicted in the video.

If I can make a small jab at the narrator:  It was funny how he pronounced the word "secant."  But apparently, a lot of narrators think that's how to pronounce it.

The one thing that occurred to me watching the church’s video is:  if, in one or two hundred years, all that metal encased in concrete starts to rust and is significantly degraded—what then?

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5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The one thing that occurred to me watching the church’s video is:  if, in one or two hundred years, all that metal encased in concrete starts to rust and is significantly degraded—what then?

The Lord will tell it to go back to the way it was. If He can change the nature of water to wine, He can change rust back to natural metal.

(or, we'll just do the whole process by hand all over again) :)

Edited by scottyg
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12 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The one thing that occurred to me watching the church’s video is:  if, in one or two hundred years, all that metal encased in concrete starts to rust and is significantly degraded—what then?

That's a good question.

There have been two attempts at making a steel grade that would passivate rather than rust.  The first one performed poorly because the passivating layer did not maintain integrity.  I never heard what happened to the other one, nor have I heard of anyone using it.  So, I don't know.

Whatever happens in two hundred years... I guess they'll come up with another solution.  In the past 10 years alone they've come up with miracles in material science.  They have plastics that are:

  • Light as wood
  • Stronger than steel
  • Rigid as tungsten
  • And hard as titanium

We just haven't been able to get all four characteristics in the same material.  But in 200 yrs?  Probably.  And who knows what kind of construction equipment they'll have?

Edited by Carborendum
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4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

If I can make a small jab at the narrator:  It was funny how he pronounced the word "secant."  But apparently, a lot of narrators think that's how to pronounce it.

So do a lot of writers. Maybe some engineer can set us straight.

EDIT: Did you mean the video you linked or the original video?

Edited by Vort
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10 hours ago, Vort said:

So do a lot of writers. Maybe some engineer can set us straight.

EDIT: Did you mean the video you linked or the original video?

They both pronounced it "SEE-Can't" with a prolonged "A" sound in the second syllable. It's that prolonged vowel that was awkward.

Everyone in my experience shortens the vowel such that it is basically omitted:   SEE - knt. 

Notice that the third video has the pronunciation that I'm more familiar with.  But she does have a strong accent.

Edited by Carborendum
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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Such a negative word.  So much better to be a secan.

Reminds me of the joke I heard growing up in California’s agricultural region:

Q:  Is “almond” pronounced ALL-mond, or “AM-mond”?

A:  “ALL-mond” until it’s harvest time, and then “AM-mond”; because to get them off the tree you have to knock the L out of them.  

(To those not agriculturally inclined, almonds are harvested by using a special kind of heavy machine to shake the trees vigorously until the ripe almonds fall off.)

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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My most memorable experience in the SLC temple was having to wait underground in cattle chutes and listening to the temple staff have to remind the groups over and over (every 5 min or so) to lower our voices and be reverent.  Prior to a family wedding.

I was not impressed with the Utah culture…

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11 minutes ago, mikbone said:

was not impressed with the Utah culture…

I’ll never forget my first introduction to Utah culture. It was among my first few weeks in the Church and I mentioned to someone that I wanted to see how ward services work closer to SLC. The woman I was speaking to said

“Don’t do it. They’ll glare at you for taking the sacrament with the wrong hand.”

”Oh. Where are you from?”

”Utah.”

She was an orthodox as they come but her having such a dry sense of humor about it was just awesome. 

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